RFID in casinos
September 11th, 2011 at 8:18:10 PM
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Quote: MrVI've followed the growth and development of RFID technology, and wonder just how common it really is in Las Vegas casinos these days.
I would think that it would be nearly impossible to find statistical information, as it of such a huge advantage to a casino to keep you wondering how many chips are encoded. But simple logic would seem to say that any business would be crazy to create something of value of $100 or more that weighs 11.5 grams and not encode it with the latest technology to prevent theft.
The article you highlighted indicates that some casinos are experimenting with $25 RFID chips. I doubt that is as widespread.
The monthly chip and token report only discusses design of latest approved chips, not security.
By the way, if you have been following the absolute disaster of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing for the last few years, in their attempt to print a new high security $100 colored banknote. Perhaps the government should simply quit trying. They could stop printing the $50 banknotes, and replace the $100 banknotes with casino chips with RFID technology. That way they could scan people at airports and see if they are carrying more than $10,000. Of couse it would be much heavier to walk around with huge amounts of cash.
September 11th, 2011 at 9:31:51 PM
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Quote: pacomartinOf couse it would be much heavier to walk around with huge amounts of cash.
They don't really fit in your wallet either.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 11th, 2011 at 11:46:31 PM
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Quote: EvenBobThey don't really fit in your wallet either.
Perhaps they wouldn't be a good replacement for the $100 bill. However, they might be a good replacement for the $1,000 bill.
The arguments against introducing a banknote higher than $100 is fear of counterfeiting, money laundering would be easier, transport of large amounts of cash for nefarious purposes would be easier, etc. etc.
The arguments for re-introducing the $500 banknote is that when the $500's were ordered destroyed in 1969 a $100 banknote was worth far more than a $500 is today. The Euro and the Swiss Franc have banknotes with $700 and $1200 respectively. The biggest argument is that with over 7 billion $100 banknotes circulating around the world, replacing them periodically with newer versions is becoming an ever increasingly difficult and expensive task.
A $1000 government issued casino chip would be a compromise. It could act like currency, but the holder would have to be wiling to give up some privacy. If he wants to board an airplane with $100K he could submit to having his chips scanned. Today you have to fill out an IRS form if you have $100K in cash. It would be much harder to counterfeit the chip since you would have to counterfeit the RFID code.
You could have a currency that would be harder to use illegally. Perhaps it could take the place of a few billion of the hundred dollar banknotes circulating.
=========================
Britain stopped the buying and selling of 500 euro note by money wholesalers.
September 12th, 2011 at 1:03:09 AM
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It appears that they were not. The gunman was so well known at the Wynn that after the robbery he was able to formally exchange some of his stolen chips at the cage thus showing that at least those particular chips were not encoded in any manner.Quote: MrVI know that the chips stolen by the Bellagio Bandit were RFID - encoded.
September 12th, 2011 at 7:03:46 AM
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Is there any reason RFID chips coulnd't be woven into a bank note's fabric?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
September 12th, 2011 at 8:31:00 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffIt appears that they were not. The gunman was so well known at the Wynn that after the robbery he was able to formally exchange some of his stolen chips at the cage thus showing that at least those particular chips were not encoded in any manner.
If he was able to cash some stolen Bellagio chips as a courtesy at Wynn, well, that proves nothing except that Wynn didn't have the technology in place to detect the RFID signal from the Bellagio chip: and why should they?
They have their own chips to keep track of, and RFID signal codes differ from casino to casino, apparently.
Such courtesy chip cashes are done at a casino's peril; I suspect the suits at Bellagio smiled when they told their counterpart from Wynn, when rejecting the purloined chips: "Sorry, these were stolen, and are not redeemable."
The Bellagio chips were RFID-embedded in denominations of $100 and higher, which effectively made them nearly-worthless to an informed thief.
see ... RFIDchips
Oh, wait a minute ... did you 'misspeak?"
Did you mean to say "Bellagio" instead of "Wynn?"
If so, and if the thief cashed them at the Bellagio cage, not the Wynn cage, then I cannot explain the failure of Bellagio to detect the presence of an RFID encoded chip.
Curious.
"What, me worry?"
September 12th, 2011 at 11:36:16 AM
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Quote: NareedIs there any reason RFID chips coulnd't be woven into a bank note's fabric?
Yes it can physically be done, but currently it would be damaged under normal or heavy use. They are still working on the technology.
But cash (especially large banknotes) is prized for it's anonymity as well as for it's ease of carrying as well as it's universal acceptance. People may shy away from it if it is trackable.
My suggestions was to create a $1000 chip as a compromise. A chip weights 11.5 grams, only slightly more than 10 banknotes. It provides some of the simplicity of cash for large transactions, but you lose some of the privacy in that it is more traceable.
Someone could register the chips and put them in a safe in his home. If the home is robbed, then the chips can be tracked like any other stolen good.
The next question is can you put a tracking chip in a larger plaque, as well as an RFID chip.
September 12th, 2011 at 11:52:27 AM
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Quote: pacomartinThe next question is can you put a tracking chip in a larger plaque, as well as an RFID chip.
Yes. However, the battery life would be limited, unless there was some way to passively recharge it. However, why would you want to do it? I suspect concerns about the signal causing cancer will be raised.
The RFID chips can be used (passively) for tracking. You just need to have enough readers in the right places. Grocers were experimenting with tagging all the items in their stores so that a shopper would simply roll their entire basket into a reader and in a few seconds get an itemized total.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
September 12th, 2011 at 12:08:18 PM
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Quote: AyecarumbaGrocers were experimenting with tagging all the items in their stores so that a shopper would simply roll their entire basket into a reader and in a few seconds get an itemized total.
From this 5 year old commercial I was expecting it to be fairly widespread by now.
The possibilities are limitless. I suppose that you could begin tracking pedophiles with surgically planted devices. Schools could sense when a pedophile is nearby. Children of wealthy parents could carry a device that will alert the child and call a parent if a pedophile is near them.
No one will object to pedophiles being tracked. But from there you could branch out to all kinds of people. If you implant a chip in some people's hands, it will inactivate guns which will be required to have a matching technology. That way convicted felons won't be able to operate guns.
September 12th, 2011 at 12:24:08 PM
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Shades of GATTACA? While there are many possible uses for tracking (and controlling) the whereabouts and activities of every single individual, are any of them worth the cost of our individual freedom? Eventually, we will have to make a choice whether to take the "mark" or not. Our ATM cards and cellphone GPS have us half way there.
As for the grocers, rolling out the tags has been a slow process mainly due to manufacturers having to take on the cost of adding tags to their products, and problems with accuracy with multiple items, and when items are stacked closely.
As for the grocers, rolling out the tags has been a slow process mainly due to manufacturers having to take on the cost of adding tags to their products, and problems with accuracy with multiple items, and when items are stacked closely.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
September 12th, 2011 at 12:30:26 PM
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I should really stop posting when sober... I make too many mistakes.
My recollection was that he sold some chips at a discount and it was quite clear the buyer knew what was going on.
He also gave some chips to his girlfriend some of which remained in her possession and were seized by the cops. It seems she had no way of knowing or at least there was no way of proving that she knew.
My recollection is hazy but I do believe I read that he was a known customer and was actually trusted enough the very next day for some transaction in chips somewhere. I tried to google this but couldn't find it. I know I read it when the events were taking place but there were so many rumors being printed as fact.
If the chips were in fact embedded with chips and the software/hardware was in place to give the casino the appropriate list... then the chips were worthless and there would have been no need to call in all such chips.
As I understand RFID, the tables may have sensors to differentiate locations of chips but the cashiers windows do not. The primary reason for RFID chip embedding is to give accurate counts and to show that chips were in player's stacks, betting circle or BJ dealer's tray (or similar for other games). Having a listing for stolen chips is a great side benefit though.
As of yet, I don't think casinos have systems that track RFID chips at the cashier's windows, probably for equipment cost reasons.
My recollection was that he sold some chips at a discount and it was quite clear the buyer knew what was going on.
He also gave some chips to his girlfriend some of which remained in her possession and were seized by the cops. It seems she had no way of knowing or at least there was no way of proving that she knew.
My recollection is hazy but I do believe I read that he was a known customer and was actually trusted enough the very next day for some transaction in chips somewhere. I tried to google this but couldn't find it. I know I read it when the events were taking place but there were so many rumors being printed as fact.
If the chips were in fact embedded with chips and the software/hardware was in place to give the casino the appropriate list... then the chips were worthless and there would have been no need to call in all such chips.
As I understand RFID, the tables may have sensors to differentiate locations of chips but the cashiers windows do not. The primary reason for RFID chip embedding is to give accurate counts and to show that chips were in player's stacks, betting circle or BJ dealer's tray (or similar for other games). Having a listing for stolen chips is a great side benefit though.
As of yet, I don't think casinos have systems that track RFID chips at the cashier's windows, probably for equipment cost reasons.
September 12th, 2011 at 12:50:12 PM
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Quote: AyecarumbaYes. However, the battery life would be limited, unless there was some way to passively recharge it
the chips dont actually have a battery, the reader emits a magnetic field that powers the chip, and then the reader scans the data. So charging is not needed at all.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
September 12th, 2011 at 1:40:57 PM
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Quote: WizardofEnglandthe chips dont actually have a battery, the reader emits a magnetic field that powers the chip, and then the reader scans the data. So charging is not needed at all.
I think you lost track of the conversation. We were saying that extremely high value plaques, might have not only RFID, but tracking devices as well. A tracking device would have to have a battery since it might not be very close.
As long as it is in the casino, you could probably monitor the chips passing through doorways with only RFID.
As for RFID in currency, the world's largest banknotes are
1000 Swiss Francs worth US$1132
500 Latvian Lats worth US$972 (limited number of these notes. Mostly used for real estate level transactions. Poor banking system)
500 Euros worth US$682
200 Euros worth US$273
1000 Danish Krones worth US$183
1000 Norwegian Kroners worth US$180
5000 Russian Rubles worth US$166
1000 Swiss Kronas worth US$152
10,000 Japanese Yen worth US$129
The most obvious candidates for adding RFID technology is the 1000 Swiss Francs worth US$1132 and the 500 Euros worth US$682. Both banknotes circulate outside of their home countries.
September 12th, 2011 at 2:09:53 PM
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This would defeat the old bubble-gum on the bottom of the drink tray trick wherein the waitress rests a tray atop a stack of high value chips and hands out the drinks to the high rollers.... until the thieves learn to get their own scanners and know what serial numbers exist in the room... and just blast away with a stronger signal.
November 27th, 2011 at 4:01:00 PM
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They had an expert on the Bob Dancer radio show a
week ago who said RFID chips were dead in the water
as far as table games go. He said the only place the technology
is used is in the counting room, I believe. The only casino
to ever use it on table games was the high limit area
at Hard Rock. He says its costs $20K per table in the casino
and its just not worth it. Like facial recognition, its sounds
really good and doesn't really work very well..
week ago who said RFID chips were dead in the water
as far as table games go. He said the only place the technology
is used is in the counting room, I believe. The only casino
to ever use it on table games was the high limit area
at Hard Rock. He says its costs $20K per table in the casino
and its just not worth it. Like facial recognition, its sounds
really good and doesn't really work very well..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
November 27th, 2011 at 4:18:44 PM
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I thought the Wynn and the Aria had RFID chips.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
November 27th, 2011 at 4:52:56 PM
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Quote: 1BBI thought the Wynn and the Aria had RFID chips.
The Indain casinos I go to have them. They only use them
for inventory, not for table play. Apparently ever since 2008
the interest in investing money in this has dwindled to nothing.
Having the chips is a world away from actually using them.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
November 27th, 2011 at 6:58:09 PM
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Bellagio has RFID in chips $100 and over.
"What, me worry?"
November 27th, 2011 at 7:02:55 PM
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Quote: MrVBellagio has RFID in chips $100 and over.
The point is, they don't have the technology installed
at the tables to keep track of the chips. The only area
its used in is the cashier area. Four Winds says they
have chips in everything above $5. So what, if you can't
track them at the table or anyplace else in the casino.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
November 27th, 2011 at 8:12:45 PM
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Wal-Mart has made RFID a key component of their inventory management.
The technology works; the key is finding the correct implementation.
The technology works; the key is finding the correct implementation.
"What, me worry?"
November 27th, 2011 at 8:21:49 PM
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Quote: EvenBobSo what, if you can't track them at the table or anyplace else in the casino.
It seems to me that electronic surveillance looking for cheating schemes would be so much more effective with proper monitoring of RFID chips. You could certainly catch "topping off" a pile of casino chips after the decision. The cheater may do his best to obscure the view from the eye in the sky, but you can't fool an electronic counter.
It seems like if you had a data base of betting patterns tied in with player identification via facial recognition or some other way, you could correlate high betting patterns associated with the dealer on duty. I have to believe that dealer collusion is behind most of the effective schemes in existence. Just knowing that there was a correlation, would give you a place to look.
November 28th, 2011 at 7:09:07 AM
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The technology work - at Wal-Mart, and other retailers, for one simple reason: Location only need to be accurate to within about a foot or two.Quote: MrVWal-Mart has made RFID a key component of their inventory management.
The technology works; the key is finding the correct implementation.
To fully implement it in a casino, location has to be accurate to within less than an inch.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
November 28th, 2011 at 7:58:31 AM
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That is the problem. Hardware and software for such tracking is a problem particularly when you have chip clickers who tap, fondle, etc.Quote: DJTeddyBearThe technology work - at Wal-Mart, and other retailers, for one simple reason: Location only need to be accurate to within about a foot or two. To fully implement it in a casino, location has to be accurate to within less than an inch.
In order to defeat past posting a roulette system would have to know chip position quite precisely to avoid deft nudging of chip positioning. At a blackjack table the tolerance is less fine since all that has to be known is "in the betting circle" or suddenly appearing there after the card came out of the shoe. In Baccarat, Player and Banker are separated enough and an RFID system can be just a bit less accurate. The problem is of course how to give Pit Personnel an end to information clutter.
People have chips in their hands, their pockets (knowingly and unknowingly), their rack, their chip rail, the betting area(s) ... but all that really has to be reliable and precise is "where and when''. The betting circle in Blackjack and the "Match The Dealer" symbol at 10:1 payout are not all that far from each other.
Unless the RFID equipment can differentiate the locations in real time what is the use?
November 28th, 2011 at 9:38:00 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffThat is the problem. Hardware and software for such tracking is a problem particularly when you have chip clickers who tap, fondle, etc.
In order to defeat past posting a roulette system would have to know chip position quite precisely to avoid deft nudging of chip positioning. At a blackjack table the tolerance is less fine since all that has to be known is "in the betting circle" or suddenly appearing there after the card came out of the shoe. In Baccarat, Player and Banker are separated enough and an RFID system can be just a bit less accurate. The problem is of course how to give Pit Personnel an end to information clutter.
People have chips in their hands, their pockets (knowingly and unknowingly), their rack, their chip rail, the betting area(s) ... but all that really has to be reliable and precise is "where and when''. The betting circle in Blackjack and the "Match The Dealer" symbol at 10:1 payout are not all that far from each other.
Unless the RFID equipment can differentiate the locations in real time what is the use?
I think you have hit the nail on the head, there must be a market for RFID that can be precise or some other technology that achieves this effect, but I am not aware of anything that can currently do that.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
November 28th, 2011 at 4:02:24 PM
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The technology exists, its just extremely expensive.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 7th, 2018 at 9:32:03 PM
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Funny how these chips can go from hero to zero with just the deactivation of the serial numbers in the casino computers.
