Spotting AP's and Cheats

This is from the latest issue of Casino Surveillance News and the tips they give haven't changed in 25 years. I was amazed.

Indicators of Cheating, Theft and Crooked Play

Table Games Cheats and Scammers

General:

Rubbernecking
Tracking Pit Bosses
Refuses to give name
Won’t talk to floor people
Casing games (looking for weak dealers)
Buy-ins stop at around $9000 (concealing identity)
Will not cash $10,000 or more at cage, pockets chips
Large-denomination chips to pocket, attempting to conceal winnings)
Concealing identity
Checks cameras when approaching Pit or table
Large buy-in, little play (possible counterfeit)
JDLR (just doesn't look right)

Advantage Players:

Only gives name when losing (doesn’t want name on records as a winner)
(BJ)
Observes game from start of shoe, comes in mid-shoe or departs (back-counting)
Betting spread, variations in betting through a deck or shoe
Basic Strategy variations consistent with large and small wagers
Hats always over face, sunglasses, wigs, disguises (known card counters)
Won’t talk to floor persons or players
May speak during shuffle process or dealer change only
Brings large amounts of checks on first appearance
Eyes fixed on dealer hands, slumped in third base or center field (hole-carder)
Wins consistently on large bets
Player with large bets “helping” other players make decisions
Signals between players and non-players (hole carding, card count team)
Large buy-in, little play (also possible counterfeit)

Quote: EvenBob

Player with large bets “helping” other players make decisions

Really?

I'd think that's more a clue that the player is fearful that the other player will "mess up the sequence / take the dealer's bust card" and therefore NOT an advantage player.

I would think that an advantage player / card counter would be smart enough to know that other player's bad decisions can just as easily help as hurt, so they'd be better off not drawing attention to themself.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I'd think that's more a clue that the player is fearful that the other player will "mess up the sequence / take the dealer's bust card" and therefore NOT an advantage player.

Probably, but it might be an advantage player attempting to act in a "normal" manner by being stupid and complaining about someone else and their bad playing.

Either way, the list seems to be what surveillance people are supposed to think as opposed to be what is most likely the truth.

Many a rubbernecker is a guy looking for his wife or a guy who could use a neck rub, not a thief about to grab some chips and run. These security seminars magnify the dangers and diminish the prospects for simply normal behavior.

Imagine being backed off cause you "JDLR".

Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

Imagine being backed off cause you "JDLR".

No. Just Don't Look Right would not prompt a backoff but it would provoke heightened surveillance particularly if the guy who just didn't look right was also winning. Players, particularly male players, who sit extremely close to each other at a blackjack table might have any number of reasons but surveillance personnel start out thinking they are probably card-passers and watch them carefully. They won't get backed off until something improper is spotted or they start winning and five or six cameras are filming them from every angle imaginable.

I am guessing "Just Don't Look Right" really is a gut check feeling from surveillance. After spending years watching gamblers from the eye-in-the-sky, they must develop a natural feeling if something doesn't seem normal. FleaStiff is right that they would probably spend more attention and additional cameras in those situations.

What could not seem normal that isn't covered in the other suggestions? The only thing I can think of is someone who is winning but not celebrating very much like it is business as usual.

Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

What could not seem normal that isn't covered in the other suggestions? The only thing I can think of is someone who is winning but not celebrating very much like it is business as usual.

I guess that what immediately comes to mind is entering the casino, not actually playing anything, making eye contact with security, and then attempting to leave, which, as it turns out, handcuffing and detaining a patron for doing is considered an overreaction to.

Fleastiff and gambler are right, JDLR is just one of those "gut" things. You get used to typical human behavior at certain areas - bars, tables, slots, lobby, buffet, just as you get used to certain behavior in your everyday life. Seeing something "weird" (JDLR) should be a cue to watch that person for a while to see WHY he's being weird. Sometimes people are just wacky, sometimes they're up to something. "JDLR" is another way of reminding yourself to trust your gut, and to not just blow it off.

double post

Quote: Face

Fleastiff and gambler are right, JDLR is just one of those "gut" things. You get used to typical human behavior at certain areas - bars, tables, slots, lobby, buffet, just as you get used to certain behavior in your everyday life. Seeing something "weird" (JDLR) should be a cue to watch that person for a while to see WHY he's being weird. Sometimes people are just wacky, sometimes they're up to something. "JDLR" is another way of reminding yourself to trust your gut, and to not just blow it off.

"JDLR" absolutely exists. In the retail world, if something doesn't look or feel right, you automatically call security. Some of the time, it's nothing (actually, a lot of the time it's nothing that you KNOW of). Occasionally, there's something bad going on and that call prevents theft, or allows us to catch a shoplifter. Retail surveillance is not nearly as intricate as casino surveillance. There aren't nearly as many cameras, you can't have cameras where theft most occurs (in fitting rooms). Staff is typically undermanned and if something comes up, there might be nobody on the cameras. Sure, you can rewind tape, but then you're limited in views, etc.

When I worked at Sears, I worked in a two-floor store, Floor 1 being hardlines (tools, appliances, etc), and Floor 2 being apparel. I was manager on duty when I noticed a very strange guy acting quite strange with a combo tool kit upstairs. It didn't appear to be paid for, so I called surveillance. About 15 minutes later, they called me, telling me he was just waiting on his family and took the kit back downstairs to be paid for. About an hour after that, I went back to the office and saw the family outside the Surveillance room. Apparently the WIFE had been stealing, and knowing they would be watching the husband and not her, she thought she'd be able to get away with taking clothing. My call basically caused a stop that they might have otherwise missed.

Quote: FleaStiff

These security seminars magnify the dangers and diminish the prospects for simply normal behavior.

They sell security, they need to create and magnify the need
for what they sell. In another article, a guy who was a floor
supervisor and then in security for 8 years, says don't worry
so much if you're an AP. People in security don't get paid
enough to really give a damn and as long as you're not doing
something super obvious, they're not going to spot you anyway.
Its all about money. They spend the vast majority of their time
watching casino employees because thats where most of the
theft happens.

Quote: EvenBob

They sell security, they need to create and magnify the need for what they sell.
They spend the vast majority of their time watching casino employees because thats where most of the theft happens.

True.

They watch the employees. They have opportunity eight hours a day, five days a week. They also meet and take breaks with other dealers and socialize off-work with other dealers. Collusion between employees is a constant threat. Sure they look at the players too, but the initial focus is on a dealer. Is he following procedure? Where is one hand when he is doing something with the other? Is he turning his shoulder in a manner that blocks a boxman's view or a floor person's view? Did he pay that losing bet by mistake or has he been doing it for half the night because that is his girlfriend sitting there?

Quote: FleaStiff

They watch the employees. They have opportunity eight hours a day, five days a week.

The former surveillance guy says they bust maybe
5-7 AP's a month. With such a low number its hard
to stay vigilant for 8 hours, you tend to get lazy. I
was reading about a casino that last year accidentally
put a stack of $100 bills is a change machine where
the $5 dollar bills should go. They busted and arrested
a woman who made 58 trips to the machine before
they stopped her. Where the heck was surveillance?
She had to make 58 trips before they caught her?
They should have been on to her after 10-15. They
don't care, they don't pay attention, they make $12
an hour.

" The former surveillance guy says they bust maybe
5-7 AP's a month. "

Make that suspected AP'S. Bet no more than 1 out of the 100 actually were able to beat the game !!

Quote: buzzpaff

Make that suspected AP'S. Bet no more than 1 out of the 100 actually were able to beat the game !!

I'm sure most of them are crude amateurs. The good ones
aren't that easy to spot, they don't stare at the cameras and
move their lips while they're counting, as the list suggests.
On the Green Chip forum, AP's are encouraged to talk up
the pit crew, not shun them. If you're friendly and outgoing,
they tend to not suspect you of anything because their training
says you're supposed to be shifty and quiet.

Quote: EvenBob

They don't care, they don't pay attention, they make $12 an hour.

Rent a cops and undercover shoppers don't make much money either. Surveillance people don't make much money until they get to be real good at it. I saw an interview with a guy in surveillance at that California Poker Club wherein some really swift dude put some weed in the betting circle. The surveillance guy was smarter than that Weed Guy but it didn't look like it would be by much.

Quote: FleaStiff

Rent a cops and undercover shoppers don't make much money either. Surveillance people don't make much money until they get to be real good at it.

Top money for a surveillance supervisor is about 40K. In most
casinos, the hosts make the most money. Some of them make
as much as the president of operations, maybe even more. The
good ones get a % of what their whales lose, and that can
really add up.

Quote: EvenBob

The former surveillance guy says they bust maybe
5-7 AP's a month. With such a low number its hard
to stay vigilant for 8 hours, you tend to get lazy. I
was reading about a casino that last year accidentally
put a stack of $100 bills is a change machine where
the $5 dollar bills should go. They busted and arrested
a woman who made 58 trips to the machine before
they stopped her. Where the heck was surveillance?
She had to make 58 trips before they caught her?
They should have been on to her after 10-15. They
don't care, they don't pay attention, they make $12
an hour.

I suspect 5-7 is a high estimate. Almost go so far to say "he must have been high to make that estimate", unless that was "suspected" AP's. As for those change machines, not much Surv can do on that one. Sure, they watch the $100's go in the cassette in the bank, but then the cassette gets shut, stacked next to $1's, $5's and $20's cassettes, then piled into a cart and taken to the machine. No way to track it. And a patron hitting the machine constantly is only mild JDLR. A lot of patrons do that, it's not terribly uncommon.

Quote: Face

And a patron hitting the machine constantly is only mild JDLR. A lot of patrons do that, it's not terribly uncommon.

Nobody hits a change machine 58 times in 90min. I bet it
wasn't them who caught her, somebody on the floor probably
reported it. They found out later it was 58 by reviewing tape.

Quote: EvenBob

Nobody hits a change machine 58 times in 90min.

Generally speaking, you are correct. In fact, it happens.

"58 times" I'm sure means "58 tickets were inserted", and not "patron used machine, left, played a slot, returned, used the machine, left, played a slot...". The time to process a ticket, walk to a slot, insert money, print a ticket, return to the machine and repeat doesn't allow for 58 seperate trips.

And you're probably right, it was probably the floor who reported it. Surv can only watch so much actively, they very much rely on Slot Attendants, Promotions, Security, etc to report stuff to them to look into further.

Why do AP's sit at third base? That means you need to count AND figure out your move at the same time. Why not just sit at first base and get your move out of the way? Then you can easily count as everyone else plays.

I know the response may be "to see more cards" before you bet - but sitting at first base could also be looked at as playing AFTER third base and the dealer, with two more hands worth of cards dealt...

Quote: shaferdaniel

Why do AP's sit at third base? That means you need to count AND figure out your move at the same time. Why not just sit at first base and get your move out of the way? Then you can easily count as everyone else plays.

I know the response may be "to see more cards" before you bet - but sitting at first base could also be looked at as playing AFTER third base and the dealer, with two more hands worth of cards dealt...

I'm not sure if 3rd base specifically refers to counting AP, it could be the others. To be honest, I'm having a brain fart and forgeting what AP 3rd base seat is for. But whatever the reason, the "extra hands" of counting is a non issue. If you're good at counting, you're good at counting. A few extra hands means nothing. I can sing a song, listen to directions complete with addresses, laugh along at jokes, answer phone calls, and still keep the count. There are others that can do all that, plus more, plus remember all the proper deviations, plus have a full blown coversation... you get the idea.

Thanks. It does seem like a non-issue and probably refers to something else.

Sounds like you got some skills. Take 'em down Face!!

Quote: Face

I'm not sure if 3rd base specifically refers to counting AP, it could be the others. To be honest, I'm having a brain fart and forgeting what AP 3rd base seat is for. But whatever the reason, the "extra hands" of counting is a non issue. If you're good at counting, you're good at counting. A few extra hands means nothing. I can sing a song, listen to directions complete with addresses, laugh along at jokes, answer phone calls, and still keep the count. There are others that can do all that, plus more, plus remember all the proper deviations, plus have a full blown coversation... you get the idea.

Now if you had a bankroll, discipline, could find a good game, and play at a $100 minimum table, you might make some money.
If surrender was offered, that is. I stand by my statement that 1 at most of the 7 SUSPECTED AP players were really that.

Why bet when you have seen 25 cards if you can bet after seeing 37 cards ? No that strategy changes that often, but why give up that advantage ? Especially in a DD game !

Quote: shaferdaniel

Why do AP's sit at third base?

Has something to do with hole-carding I think.

Welcome to 2011. Hole carding and spooking are practically non-existent today.

Face ? Insurance is consider a sucker bet. What is the value of insurance to a counter? How much if any of his profit comes from insurance. Counters split tens and counters never take insurance? Which is the myth? Surely you know the answers as they pertain to you
identifying and protecting the casino from AP's !

Quote: buzzpaff

Counters split tens and counters never take insurance? Which is the myth?

Nareed's 23rd Law helps us infer we'll never really know:

24) Anyone can talk card counting. Real card counters don't. (Hat tip to PapaChubby)

But surveillance tells all and know little !

Quote: Nareed

24) Anyone can talk card counting. Real card counters don't.

I used to count cards, I never talk about it. Its boring.

And not very profitable to the great majority who THINK then can be winners. Their luckiest day is when someone in surveillance bars them, effectively saving the wannabes from themselves !

Quote: buzzpaff

Face ? Insurance is consider a sucker bet. What is the value of insurance to a counter? How much if any of his profit comes from insurance. Counters split tens and counters never take insurance? Which is the myth? Surely you know the answers as they pertain to you
identifying and protecting the casino from AP's !

Quote: buzzpaff

But surveillance tells all and know little !

Hehe, you can't ask a question and then make fun of the person you're asking before he replies! But I'm going to do it anyways =)

Easy answer, I don't know ;). If your talking "value" as in a percentage point of EV, that's a Wiz question (or ME, or miplet, or...anyone but me, really) I'm not an "AP counter", as I think you know, and I'm also a public school graduate, so knowledge of such things is no more than trivia for me, and figuring it out is beyond my ability. All I know (since it's all I need to know) is just about everyone from old salts to virgins knows you don't take insurance. Someone taking insurance is one of those JDLR's discussed in another thread.

As for the myth portion of your question, it depends what you consider a "counter". I played when I went to Vegas and I counted my ass off. Had my boss not threatened me with physical harm, I would have split the tens I was dealt (and would have ended up with a 20 and a 14). If I had balls, I would have took insurance once or twice (and would have lost on all counts). So, if by "counter" you mean any ol' schlub that can keep a count and knows what to do with it, then there are no myths. Anything that can be done has been done.

If you mean "Counter", like the professional AP, then I'd assume they do neither. From what I gather from this site, there's a lot of "sweat the money" joints full of paranoid floormen. Splitting tens and taking insurance are just things that are going to get attention. My place is pretty lax compared to the stories I hear, and I personally don't fall into the AP hysteria that a lot of personnel do, but even I would take note of someone doing either of these things. They're both just such elementary no-no's that seeing one is going to get attention. Any AP, I would think, would try to avoid them. If I HAD to pick, I'd say "splitting 10's" is the myth because any AP should know that it'll just bring the heat. But as I said, it's been done before and will be again, so it's not really a "myth", it's just the example that's the closest to one.

Quote: buzzpaff

And not very profitable to the great majority who THINK then can be winners. Their luckiest day is when someone in surveillance bars them, effectively saving the wannabes from themselves !

I was kicked out of the old Klondike in Vegas and I
wasn't even counting that time. I won about $350
on a few good hands and they told me to leave. I
had a coupon for the buffet and got in line and the
same pit douche saw me and asked to see the coupon
and tore it in half and said he was calling the cops
if I didn't leave. This was the same year they closed,
they were sweating every dime.

Splitting tens is an idiots play. Insurance provide 30% of a counter's profit. Not picking on you but most surveillance personnel
would not know a counter if they tripped over one. I have seen over the years 7 or 8 BJ players back-offed in Colorado. This was when table limits were $5 minimum and $5 max. DUH !!

I drink waaaaaaaay more than the five dollars per hour that I'm giving up to house edge. The more drunk I am at the end of the sesh, the bigger AP I consider myself to be ;)

Quote: buzzpaff

Splitting tens is an idiots play. Insurance provide 30% of a counter's profit. Not picking on you but most surveillance personnel
would not know a counter if they tripped over one. I have seen over the years 7 or 8 BJ players back-offed in Colorado. This was when table limits were $5 minimum and $5 max. DUH !!

Idiots play? I'm not offended by that. It was a running joke in the office, like "Split dem tens! Dats how we doos it roun' hur!" to prove how large your manhood was. A guy I knew was in Erie PA gambling while I was gaming in Vegas. I had to do it, it was code of our shift. He did and won both. I tried and got threatened. =) Trust me, with my crushing $5-$10 bet spread (with one astronomical $20 wager) I was not fooled into thinking I was AP ;)

I don't see your thread as picking on me. 30%? I had no idea. Couldn't even tell if your blowing smoke or not. Thing is, though, we don't NEED to know. Surv vs AP is similar to a nerd and a bully taking a test. The nerd does all the work, the bully just needs to copy. Surv is the dummy copying. Honestly, we are not taught the math behind the game, why things are the way they are, what effect X has on Y, we're just taught "things to look for". Splitting 10's, taking insurance, wager flucuations, playing multiple spots, etc and so on. A 10 year old could do it, and some, like you said, are mentally equivilent. Some people (like me) take steps to learn the details, but there are those (my manager, for one) who have no clue. Still think that slot machines "get hot".

I missed this gem though...

Quote: buzzpaff

I stand by my statement that 1 at most of the 7 SUSPECTED AP players were really that.

1 in 7 is still way too high, IMO. I can recall bending to floorpersons wishes on evaluating players for AP at least 20 times, if not 40 or more. So far....ONE person was confirmed AP. Does AP exist? Absolutely. Am I concerned? Not one friggin' bit. We'd be much better off preventing employees from running off with hootch and linens.

Quote: EvenBob

The former surveillance guy says they bust maybe
5-7 AP's a month.

Given the effectiveness of attempted APs as a group (not meaningfully better than the average), I wonder exactly how much the casino was over-spending in surveillance budget. How much does a full-time surveillance crew cost vs. allowing a few potentially successful APs ply their trade?

Quote: MathExtremist

How much does a full-time surveillance crew cost vs. allowing a few potentially successful APs ply their trade?

My understanding is 80% of surveillance is devoted
to watching the people who actually handle the money,
the employees. Thats where most of the stealing happens.

Quote: MathExtremist

Given the effectiveness of attempted APs as a group (not meaningfully better than the average), I wonder exactly how much the casino was over-spending in surveillance budget. How much does a full-time surveillance crew cost vs. allowing a few potentially successful APs ply their trade?

I wonder how many losers who think they can count are sent to another casino but surveillance.

Has anyone ever seen Surveillance back off a AP when he was losing ? They lose almost as often as they win you know!!
If he is an AP why let him win his money back before backing him off ? Cause surveillance has no idea who is or is not an AP
player in 99 out of 100 cases. And I am being generous.
Splitting tens !!!!!!! Send that AP player over to my house for a friendly game, will you ? How high must the true count be for that to be a play? Once in an AP's lifetime. MAYBE !!

Quote: EvenBob

My understanding is 80% of surveillance is devoted to watching the people who actually handle the money,
the employees. Thats where most of the stealing happens.

There are Gaming Commission regulations that define the surveillance capability requirements for various types of casinos. I've not reviewed the regulations but I believe they specify the construction requirements, the number and placement of cameras, the use of separate and unmarked entrances of surveillance personnel and the number of surveillance personnel. I don't think the regs have ever been proven to be related to needs for surveillance. Most surveillance personnel simply "build a file" on an employee by focusing all available cameras on him and annotating the tapes into a master tape for later use. Sure sometimes surveillance spots a cheating player but usually its because they happened to be watching the dealer at the time.

Floormen do seem to have an "us versus them" attitude wherein the prime indicator of some sort of cheating going on is simply that the player is winning. Now these ultra Sweat the Money joints are probably those with the twenty dollar rooms and specials on corned beef hash or something that draw players from the local neighborhood. Some more major places seem to share the attitudes though.

One floor person was asked long long ago what he would do if he absolutely knew that no cheating was going on but a guy was consistently wining and the Floor said "Out He Goes". The attitude is shared by some dealers.

Quote: FleaStiff

One floor person was asked long long ago what he would do if he absolutely knew that no cheating was going on but a guy was consistently winning and the Floor said "Out He Goes". The attitude is shared by some dealers.

The floor person in the article was asked that, and he said if the
player is winning over $5000 without cheating, they will try and
back him off by switching dealers, closing the table, having the
pit stare at him, switching decks, and many other tactics he said
he couldn't talk about. Seldom was he asked to leave just for
winning. I read somewhere that if you're winning over $2500,
they call upstairs and a camera is put on you and everything
is taped. It shows just how money conscious casinos really are.
They do NOT like winners.

Some folks just can't figure out that winners are the best publicity a casino can have !

Quote: buzzpaff

Some folks just can't figure out that winners are the best publicity a casino can have !

Slot winners, yes, because they aren't really winners.
Those wins are already figured into the bottom line.
Table winners are different, casinos don't like them at
all. Take the classic example of the guy who broke
the Golden Nugget a few years back. He won so much
they had to sell the casino.

But the players they back off don't make a dent in the monthly net.

Quote: buzzpaff

But the players they back off don't make a dent in the monthly net.

They never get a chance to, do they. Thats the
whole point. To them, the casino is an entertainment
venue, and leaving with the casinos money isn't on
their program.

Quote: buzzpaff

Has anyone ever seen Surveillance back off a AP when he was losing ? They lose almost as often as they win you know!!
If he is an AP why let him win his money back before backing him off ? Cause surveillance has no idea who is or is not an AP
player in 99 out of 100 cases. And I am being generous.
Splitting tens !!!!!!! Send that AP player over to my house for a friendly game, will you ? How high must the true count be for that to be a play? Once in an AP's lifetime. MAYBE !!

Surveillance doesn't back off players, floor persons, pit bosses, and shift bosses usually do. Many players will tell you that the majority of their heat and backoffs have come during losing sessions. Maybe it's because the casino wants to add insult to injury? And splitting Tens versus a dealer's upcard of 4, 5, and 6 is the correct play with a Hi-Lo true count of 6, 5, and 4, respectively. Counters will come across opportunities to correctly split Tens on a regular basis.

Another Wong follower ? There is more to counting than a math quiz. Risk aversion and bankroll are vastly underestimated by Wongers. Like to know who his publicity agent is. Wonging in My ass. Edward Thorpe just called it back counting.

This is what surveillance looks for:

"They watched him closer now (BJ dealer) and the next buy-in went the same way. He took out a few more green chips than he needed, called the buy-in to the floorman and somehow palmed the extra checks into his possession. Surveillance called the Tahoe Police and the Gaming Authority and told them to send down a cruiser to pick the guy up after they arrested him. But the surveillance guy that was watching him told the chief to hold up. He still didn't know how he was taking the checks off the table. The next big buy-in came an hour later as one guy bought in for $1,200. He took out a total of $1,500 in checks and somehow managed to take another $300 off the table. Then they noticed what they were looking for when they turned the camera from the next Blackjack table to the right where the floor man was writing down the player's rating card number and noticed the clip board was positioned between him and the dealer and saw the dealer lay the three black checks on the floorman's clip board and the floorman slipped the rating slip over the checks and walked to the podium and slipped the checks into his pocket. It was a slick move.

These two had obviously practiced this move a few times since they had the timing down perfect. They decided to wait on the arrests. They knew they had to cash the checks in to the casino cage and only had to wait about thirty minutes after the two got off of work. They watched them walk out of the casino after punching the time clock and got into the same car in the parking garage. Soon a woman emerged from the back seat and walked into the casino. She waked up to a Blackjack table and bought in for $100. She played a few hands for $10 and proceeded to the cage to cash in $800 in checks. Weather they told her to cash in that much or if she decided that on her own it was a stupid thing to do. Although they already had her pegged from the minute she walked into the casino, they should have told her any time someone cashed out more than $500 the cage had to get an approval from the pit.

The winnings would have to be accounted for before the player would receive any cash. The undercover security along with two uniformed security guards handcuffed and escorted the woman from the cage to the back room. They then walked to the garage and approached the car from behind where the dealer and the floorman were waiting for her to come back from the casino with their cash. They were found with over $3,000 total in casino checks in their possession waiting to be cashed in. This was Grand Larceny and the casinos take a dim view of a single dealer ripping off the casino, but even less when two or more are in cahoots. This one involving a floorman was disconcerting since they did it so smoothly, how many other dealers and floormen were doing this kind of moves?"