Gambler's Anonymous

There was a discussion recently about how the Wizard doesn't link to GA because of its reliance on a higher power. I can't find that now, but I read this op-ed about AA today and thought it was equally applicable to gambling addiction.

"I believe I exist at random, but I do not exist alone."

It is equally applicable to Gambling. The 12-step programs follow the same principles of recovery, regardless of whether it's booze, smack, or dice.
I think the concept of a higher power is surrendering to a sober group consciousness, instead of relying on one's own clouded and intoxicated thinking, which would always bring the individual back to his poison.

I've heard that God is an acronym for "Group of Drunks" overtly keeping people on the straight and narrow, and not a Supreme being secretively calling the shots. I think it's about surrendering your will over to wiser or more sober authorities on the one issue of addiction, because an addict's will (or a problem gambler's will) knows only what to do in toxic excess.

I am not a believer in God, nor do I have much more than a cursory understanding of the ______ Anonymous 12 step program. Many years ago, I had an alcoholic friend, and attended AA meetings to support her.

However, what I reember of it is this: The higher power does not necessarily mean God. It could just as easily be a support group, or even the __A meetings.

The step of turning towards a higher power is a transference. There is already a higher power in the addict's life: gambling, booze, cigarettes, whatever is a powerful force in their life. The transfer is designed to remove the power of the addiction.

I never heard the "Group of Drunks" part. Kinda funny in a sad kind of way, but I assure it's not as the program intends.

To soothe the Wiz's worries, I offer this. As I said I've dealt with addiction in my life, and while I never felt the need for counseling, I was mandated to attend a program after failing a workplace drug test. Although they didn't call themselves "NA" (Narcotics Anonymous), that's basically what they were. They do ask a number of personal questions (including your religious views) and when I stated none, I was asked why. It wasn't accusatory, it was simply a question like so many of the others asked of you during that process. The also highly suggested the Serenity Prayer and of course the "surrender to a higher power". Before I even had a chance to react, they made it clear that "higher power" need not necessarily mean "God", "gods", or "a god" and gave examples of non-religious "higher powers" (damned if I can remember a one of them). Basically, it's simply a tool to use, something for your mind to hold onto while struggling back to the surface. If you're religious, "higher power" can mean you got into this mess because god is testing you (not your fault) and you'll get out because god loves you (you will succeed). If you're, say, a science based athiest, then "higher power" can mean you got into this mess because of genetics and body chemistry (it's not your fault) and you'll get out by a designed plan to stop the chemical reward habits of drugs (you will succeed). As for the Serenity Prayer, it was mentioned the one time, I hinted that I was uncomfortable with it, and never heard of it again for the rest of my treatment.

I'm sure when it was created, "higher power" meant just that, something to do with God. I can assure you, at least in my experience, there was no attempt whatsoever at conversion, of forcing, or anything untoward when it comes to religion. While I have severely mellowed when it comes to religion and do enjoy intellectual discussions on the subject with even very-pro people, I would have torn the roof off the place if religion was in any way forced on people in what is basically a state sponsored medical facility for those in dire need.

In the end, your beliefs are yours and I don't fault you for having them. I just thought I'd shed some light on the subject.

AA has a miserable failure rate, something like 97%. Its a co-dependent
support group, nothing more. The 12 steps are nothing but busy work,
they do nothing to 'cure' you. Alcoholism is a metabolic disorder, thats
why some people can drink like a fish and never get addicted. Now AA
encourages members to replace booze with sugar and caffeine and anti
depressants, anything to get away from drinking. Yeah, that'll work. AA
had a much higher success rate when it started in the 30's, before all the drugs
were invented and people weren't inclined to get hooked on sugar and
coffee. All AA does is replace one drug with other drugs.

Quote: EvenBob

All AA does is replace one drug with other drugs.

Thats all any rehab does. Indeed it used to be called Drying Out. No sense of cure or sustained change at all. Some addictions are socially acceptable, some are not. Some people take heroin and get strung out, some take heroin and then mow the lawn or deliver a physics lecture.

Most people eventually change their drug of abuse. One man went from being obsessed about heroin to being obsessed about protecting bears in Alaska. One is considered illegal and immoral the other is considered admirable. Often prisoners will describe writing as giving them a better high than drugs.

When Benny Binion called out, Book it! as a craps player reaching for chips inadvertently dropped a bindle of cocaine in the Field, he commented that everyone of his dealers could cover that bet at the time. And he meant it. AA is a fiction that exists because judges and counselors need to have some hope. So they elevate AA to some status it surely does not merit but the machinery continues around it as if it did.

Problem gambling? Heck even problem gamblers often win. The only problem is when you lose.

Quote: FleaStiff

So they elevate AA to some status it surely does not merit but the machinery continues around it as if it did.

I had an AA friend decades ago and I went to a meeting of
the AA group for family and friends of addicts. It was a big
pity party, with everybody trying to top the last guys story
with a better one. Afterwards they all shook hands and said
'great meeting'. HUH? They accomplished nothing except
to bitch to each other about their problems. Misery loves
company, thats what AA means to me.

Quote: EvenBob

They accomplished nothing except to bitch to each other about their problems.
Misery loves company, thats what AA means to me.

What AA means to many attendees is that if they get their certificate signed the judge will go easier on them.
I recently asked one addict if she knew she should have quit and she replied of course she knew she should but she didn't want to do it.

Quote: FleaStiff

What AA means to many attendees is that if they get their certificate signed the judge will go easier on them.

Theres that too. The rest of it is a crock, running around apologising
to everybody, turning everything over to a higher power, whatever
that means. Anything to keep from drinking. No wonder the failure
rate is so high. I like drinking, I drink something every day of the year.
I never get drunk, I never drink and drive. Yet Dr Laura on the radio
says if you come home from work and have 1 beer every night, you're
an alcoholic. If you drink beer while watching football every Sunday,
you're an alcoholic. They love to push that agenda, everybody is a sicko.
Drinking is only bad if it interferes with you living a normal life. Period.

Quote: EvenBob

Theres that too. The rest of it is a crock, running around apologising
to everybody, turning everything over to a higher power, whatever
that means. Anything to keep from drinking. No wonder the failure
rate is so high. I like drinking, I drink something every day of the year.
I never get drunk, I never drink and drive. Yet Dr Laura on the radio
says if you come home from work and have 1 beer every night, you're
an alcoholic. If you drink beer while watching football every Sunday,
you're an alcoholic. They love to push that agenda, everybody is a sicko.
Drinking is only bad if it interferes with you living a normal life. Period.

So correct. I heard it put best when I was very young (as a child I watched stuff the adults watched all the time.) The guy said there were "alcoholics" and there were "heavy drinkers." A heavy drinker might have more than 5 drinks in a week. A heavy drinker might have many drinks at a sitting. But the difference was the heavy drinker might not drink at all for a week or more and have no difference in life and behavior. An alcoholic was the guy hiding booze in his desk, etc.

Later a doctor told me another way to tell. He said the heavy drinker will possibly be, well, heavy. Alcoholics he said were more often than not very scrawny people and underweight. This was supposed to be due to the fact alcoholics get so high a % of their daily calories from booze. If they couldn't get booze they hit the sugar hard. The thing to look for to help decide was to look at the hand when the fingers are closed and flat, with the thumb touching the bottom of the index finger. On a normal person there is a "cushon" of skin. This is supposed to be the hardest body-fat to lose. But in alcoholics it will often be gone and "flat" when the hand is flat.

Same guy was pointing out which women had boob jobs and the size of the enhancement in cc's. I had more fun hanging with him than the people my age.

The difference between a "drunk" and an "alcoholic": an alcoholic goes to meetings.

I'm no psychologist, but it seems to me that a viable form of gambling or substance abuse treatment could be built around behavior modification techniques.

Remember "Clockwork Orange," where the docs injected Roddy McDowell with a drug that made him feel ill, and made him watch violent images nonstop?

That always struck me as ... promising.

Quote: MrV

Remember "Clockwork Orange," where the docs injected Roddy McDowell with a drug that made him feel ill, and made him watch violent images nonstop?

Is that what turned him into an Ape?

Quote: MrV

I'm no psychologist, but it seems to me that a viable form of gambling or substance abuse treatment could be built around behavior modification techniques.

Remember "Clockwork Orange," where the docs injected Roddy McDowell with a drug that made him feel ill, and made him watch violent images nonstop?

That always struck me as ... promising.

Hehehe! You mean Malcolm McDowell. But imagining Roddy McDowell as Alex was good for a laugh!

I kind of think that people won't change unless it hurts more to stay the same. Behavior modification didn't make sense to me outside of brainwashing. I think what Alex went through in Clockwork was pretty much brainwashing. Maybe to a "higher" purpose, but still, brainwashing makes me nervous.

Not that I'm any good at it, but if people could rely on trust and experience of trustworthy and experienced people, then maybe a lot of heartache caused by things like over-gambling could be avoided. A wiser man than me once said that Experience is an excellent teacher, but most often a very painful one.

A lot of comments here, but one thing first mentioned that was not really touched upon later, which is Mike's decision not to touch upon the dark side of gambling, compulsive gambling.

1. Firstly, if you're a recovering problem gambler, you wouldn't go to Mike's sites, much like a recovering alcoholic would stay away from bars, obviously; in the case of Mike's very well-done gambling sites, such a lounge might be in The Wynn, The Mandalay Bay, or at Caesars Palace, obviously restricted places by common sense. [A Plug, but a good analogy.] Self-Restriction is the responsibility of the recovering person, with support of his support system, be it GA, his minister, his family or whatever. If a gambler wants to visit WOO or WOV, he may indeed; if he wishes to stay away, he may also do that also. Nothing to do with Mike, people are responsible for their own mouse clicks and Web site visitations.

2. Mike runs his sites as he sees fit, and he did a great job. If he feels no obligation to plug GA, fine. I have never seen a floorman say, "You know, you've given us too much money, can I refer you to GA?" if the customer didn't inquire what to do. We do NOT make a call. If a gambler does request problem gambling info, he THEN recieves a discreet packet of literature from the floorman or shift supervisor with various phone numbers. Bartenders cut some patrons off after too many, but floormen don't unless the player says, "I need help, this is nuts." Regardless of what we (dealers, floormen) think.

3. In disagreement with Bob, GA/AA/NA does seem to work - if the person attends meetings or works the program in good faith. I guess it's like being a music student - you get "better" with practice of it, and not with non-practice or avoidance of meetings. We've lost customers to GA, and if they attend meetings, they ain't coming to the casino. And that is fine. We've all bumped into "Ex-Regulars" at the Home Depot, movie theaters, Frye's Electronics, etc. and wished them well. Do what you gotta do for your own life, no apologizes for stopping gambling or whatever.

4. The higher power thing is the sober or devine area of "wholesome functionality" that is completely outside of the non-functioning addict, alcoholic, or problem gambler, who needs to get to that area, and obviously doesn't seem to have "it" within himself. Can be a Group of Drunks, or a concept of God, discreetly leading us down a better path if we let him. I get that concept, that aspect.

Quote: Paigowdan

3. In disagreement with Bob, GA/AA/NA does seem to work - if the person attends meetings or works the program in good faith..

The problem is, 95% to 97% of the people don't work the
program, so its a failure. Anything works if you work it. But
it doesn't provide what people want or need, so they don't.

The 'higher power' thing is like turning your life over to fate,
which is happening if you do it or not.

Dan, you make good arguments, but they're flawed.

Quote: Paigowdan

1. Firstly, if you're a recovering problem gambler, you wouldn't go to Mike's sites.

If that was the case, casino websites wouldn't have GA links and/or phone numbers either.

Quote: Paigowdan

I have never seen a floorman say, "You know, you've given us too much money, can I refer you to GA?"

True, but as Mike has mentioned, he once asked a floorman to see a printed House Way (or some other rule), and the floorman found it, but wouldn't hand it over because it didn't have the GA notice on it.

I suppose the casino websites / literature needs it because of some silly regulation of some sort.

The key word is "silly" - for which your arguments very clearly describe just how silly it is.

The bottom line is, there's no requirement here, so it remains Mike's choice.

Quite frankly, I'd be surprised if he had it if it weren't required.

We just had a new local casino open in Feb. In the two
months before it opened we were bombarded by the
anti gambling commercials where the husband is explaining
how he lost their house at the local casino. Which table
is it where they take houses instead of cash? I've never
been able to find it.

Quote: EvenBob

Which table is it where they take houses instead of cash? I've never been able to find it.

It's over on the side, near the main cage, under a sign that says "Casino Credit".

Oh, one more thing.

It's more like a desk than a table.

What he doesn't tell you is that staking the house more than made up for itself in comps.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Dan, you make good arguments, but they're flawed.

disagree, - I think they're sensible. I stand by what I said. Thank you for sharing.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

If that was the case, casino websites wouldn't have GA links and/or phone numbers either.

No - they are fully allowed to list GA links and phone numbers if they wish, or if feel a moral obligation to do so, or if are mandated to do so on their sites. But these are web sites that do not provide gambling, they are adverts and advice and the like. Mike's Web sites, along with Gaming operators' web sites, do not provide any actual gambling there at all. Mike is not mandated to provide such links, but casino operators may be, or may wish to choose to do so.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

True, but as Mike has mentioned, he once asked a floorman to see a printed House Way (or some other rule), and the floorman found it, but wouldn't hand it over because it didn't have the GA notice on it.

That's a mandate, a requirement, and a floor supervision error to not have the GA link provided on the sheet if it were required. Ask for Gambler Recovery info, and they are supposed to give it to you.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I suppose the casino websites / literature needs it because of some silly regulation of some sort.

In many jurisdiction, yes.


The key word is "silly" - for which your arguments very clearly describe just how silly it is.

The bottom line is, there's no requirement here, so it remains Mike's choice.

Quite frankly, I'd be surprised if he had it if it weren't required.

Quote: EvenBob

The problem is, 95% to 97% of the people don't work the program, so its a failure.

First of all, I don't think it has a 95% failure rate, a lot of people give it a good effort, if only to recover from their addictions. If it were a failure, it would have been gone long ago.
Secondly, if people who NEED to work the program don't work the program as they should, it is not the fault of the program, it is the fault of the person's attitude or his lack of good faith effort.

Quote: EvenBob

Anything works if you work it. But it doesn't provide what people want or need, so they don't.

No Bob, it does indeed provide exactly what they need, if they properly work it. It provides about as much as what people put into it.

Quote: EvenBob

The 'higher power' thing is like turning your life over to fate, which is happening if you do it or not.

No Bob, people have the ability to totally change their fates in a positive direction - if they take certain positive actions.

Quote: Paigowdan

First of all, I don't think it has a 95% failure rate...No Bob, it does indeed provide exactly what they need...No Bob, people have the ability to totally change their fates in a positive direction

I didn't make up 95%, look it up. AA is tricky
to evaluate because they are constantly taking
in new members. Even AA itself admits that
after a year, 95% of the members who joined
have dropped out of the program.
And no, if it provided exactly what people
needed, it would work. You have to take positive action to change direction.
Turning your life over to some mumbo jumbo 'power' is a step backwards,
not forwards. You make your destiny, not some force outside you.

Quote: EvenBob

Is that what turned him into an Ape?

Oops ... yeah, Malcolm, not Roddy.

Gee, is it coincidence that the recidivism rate for problem drinkers (5% per above) is almost the same rate for meth addicts who try to kick (97%).

Truth is, we are essentially clueless as to how to stop people from engaging in addictive behaviors, be it alcohol, drugs, or gambling.

Nothing works.

Nothing that is EXCEPT the one thing that is time proven: will power.

People have to want to quit, intend to quit, and follow through with it.

Getting them to that point and then motivating them, that's the tough part; they need to get there on their own.

Quote: EvenBob

I didn't make up 95%, look it up.

No, Bob, Recovery Hospitals/psychiatrists have such a rate.
firstly, I understand that the majority of AA/NA/GA people relapse, but not at all near > 90% at all. It would be gone if it had, instead of being the primary recovery system used everywhere in the U.S.
Again, a point that you missed is that the "program" doesn't pass or fail, it is a set of instructions/procedures/lifestyle changes that work if the addict/gambler does what he is supposed to do, and does not work if the addict/patient/gambler/etc. doesn't do what he is supposed to do.
The responsibility or "pass or fail" lies with the gambler or addict, - and not with the program.
Both Internal Medicine and Psychiatry have absolutely no cure or pill at all for addiction that works, and "the program" is the only thing that has a shot at all for problem gamblers/addicts/etc.

Quote: EvenBob

And no, if it provided exactly what people needed, it would work.

No bob - if people carry out their responsibilities, it would work, and that is different.
The program is not a pharmaceutical "medicine pill" that you take orally, where it either works or doesn't.

Quote: EvenBob

You have to take positive action to change direction.

Exactly. An addict or problem gambler who takes positive action in turning his will over to people who have recovered, and takes their advice and suggestions as to what really works, will succeed. This is not mumbo jumbo.
What is mumbo-jumbo is an addict or gambler who thinks he's got it all together, but really is resistant to doing what is necessary, and is sticking to his failing methods and not making changes (often by claiming the medicine that works is mumbo-jumbo to him), has the problem.

Those printing bill for those pamphlets probably gets paid out of the public relations fund. Those Responsible Gambling links on websites are probably not even voluntary but the result of some public pressure at some time. Its probably the casino's in-house lawyers who insist on the link as a risk management measure.

Quote: Paigowdan

The responsibility or "pass or fail" lies with the gambler or addict, - and not with the program.

C'mon Dan, you're like the teacher who blames the students
and not the teachers. The 12 step program is deeply
flawed. But as one prominent authority on the subject put it,
at least its better than nothing. Gee, what a glowing endorsement.

Bob, I'm telling you I've worked with FLOORMEN and DEALERS who:
1. Have stopped compulsive gambling, saying GA was the ONLY thing that worked.
2. Worked so well they can deal and run gambling games at casinos (although they have to sometimes make panicky phone calls to a "sponsor" who "talks them down" when gambling urges occur. They then meet and talk and do the GA/AA thing, and it just works for a long time.)
3. Said that there was no such thing as a "magic pill" in medicine that could successfully address this.
4. Said that there was no such thing as a "magic procedure" (hypnotherapy, electroshock, etc) in medicine that could successfully address this.
5. There was no psychiatric Freudian Therapy talk that could address addiction either.

As for "teachers blaming the students," that's a good point: Education begins at home and with the self.
If you send a monkey to Yale he will not learn.
If you send a kid who doesn't give a damn about knowledge or learning to Yale, he ALSO will not learn.
If a pennyless kid who strived for Knowledge went to just free public school - he'll spend his free time at the Library, or practicing his music (- or practicing his Crap Table Proposition Bet Keys, what have you) in order to excel and succeed, with no stopping him or his advancement. If an addict/gambler wants to stop, and uses this kind of effort to do so on the program stuff, - and says "that it works if you work it," I believe it.

One recovering gambler floorman said that he knows a recovered alcoholic who works as a bartender, and a recovering drug addict who works as a PHARMACIST. (That I can actually see....)

Edit on "better than nothing:"
1. GA: It's free.
2. If works if you apply yourself, leaving no one else to blame - (actually, kind of like education to a great degree. Book are free, discussion groups are free, and so is practicing.)
3. NOTHING in medical literature or practice has anything better than a 0% cure rate for addiction, when Everyone who got their lives back always says it's "The program" that worked 100% of the time for them.
4. I would like to ask Robert Downey Jr. or Eric Clapton how they did it, their comebacks, when they could have ended up like John Belushi or Janis Joplin.
5. I see workers in Gaming not gamble and live well, and I see ex-players around town not gambling, and they say it seems to work.

I suppose GA in Las Vegas would be like AA in New Orleans, or Cocaine Anonymous in Miami, Florida, in the sense if it can work in those environments where people are walking around sober there - or not gambling here - it can work if you apply yourself. As for being worth it, it seems worth it, as being sober or gambling-free is better than being completely broke-ass and jobless, or in jail, or even no longer alive. This town (Las Vegas) is trolling with Gambling and Meth addicts, and I cannot tell you of the florescent lighting and copper wire that condo Home Owners' Association has to pay extra for...I wish those trolls would go there...
Not everyone makes it, true, but they weren't either saved by pills or being locked up or by doctor's talk either, and had a chance with the program again if they applied themselves. Some do - and some don't.

Quote: Paigowdan

Bob, I'm telling you I've worked with FLOORMEN and DEALERS who...Have stopped compulsive gambling, saying GA was the ONLY thing that worked.

I've also talked to recovering alcoholics who said AA was the only thing that worked. However, these same people kind of just shrug when a judge makes someone go. There probably is an awful failure rate there, with the latter.

For my own opinion, a true alcoholic typically gets to the point where he has to make a decision about whether he wants to die or not. The ones who don't care die. The ones who aren't convinced yet that drinking will kill them might go to AA but back-slide to drinking again. The ones who are convinced and have something to live for and go to AA have a good shot at recovering.

Gambling addiction seems like it would be harder, since the decision can't really be put down to living or dying.

My 2 cents.

Quote: odiousgambit

I've also talked to recovering alcoholics who said AA was the only thing that worked. However, these same people kind of just shrug when a judge makes someone go. There probably is an awful failure rate there, with the latter.

My guess is that some - too few - learn to "get it." There is a "getting it" aspect to the program. Some get it by exposure, so the judge's advice is sound. Judges recommend the program because it seems to be the ONLY thing that has a shot, otherwise they wouldn't mention it at all. Some addicted lost souls are beyond of anything.

Quote: odiousgambit

For my own opinion, a true alcoholic typically gets to the point where he has to make a decision about whether he wants to die or not. The ones who don't care die. The ones who aren't convinced yet that drinking will kill them might go to AA but back-slide to drinking again. The ones who are convinced and have something to live for and go to AA have a good shot at recovering.

Those who took it seriously had to reach bottom or be really fucking scared at that point, pardon my French. Compulsive Gambling, or any addiction affliction, can apply a few serious black eyes to your life. Some get to the point where the fun stuff (dice, Booze, OxyContin, Meth, etc.) really ain't so much fun, that it stopped working when they cannot seem to stop themselves from not stopping, and then finally see it in a moment of clarity. (That actually makes sense...) I would assume that most enslaved addicts never get to the point of a "strong moment of clarity" concerning how they are really living.

Quote: odiousgambit

Gambling addiction seems like it would be harder, since the decision can't really be put down to living or dying.

I kind of disagree. In Las Vegas, there is a huge Methamphetamine problem, and there are barefoot people with no teeth trying to steal copper wiring with rubber gloves and electricians tools out of Condo block's transformer stations. Our Condo Association's electricity went out for a day because of this, it was really a desperate act. I've seen neighbors go from Corporate offices, new cars, and healthy families to Eviction notices, repo-ed new cars and foreclosures because of Meth here in Las Vegas in less than a year. Meth addicts often seem to be "totally owned and completely ensalved" beyond all hope and intervention very rapidly. Perhaps I can see a Gambler doing this, but the path is slower. Read "Whale Hunt in the Desert;" there's a true story of a successful millionaire business owner who went from Penthouse suite comps to the gutter, and the casino host witnessed this over a protracted period with a great sense of guilt.

And what is the detox for Gambling? A cottage in the woods, no Internet, and the newspaper has the sports and race sections cut out of them. But then they can make prop bets: "Hurrican Irene will knock out NYC transit until Tuesday, 8/30/11, midnight..$500 says so..." "Ghaddafi found dead by 9/3/11?" Yikes...

I just moved the last three posts to Does God Exist?. Let's try to keep this on on AA. Let me just tell the story of two friends who have experienced it.

Person one, J, joined to beat an addiction to alcohol, and NA for drugs. I think he has been sober for about 10 years, and gives GA/NA all the credit. He was raised Jewish but his personal beliefs are agnostic. I think he would say he believes in a distant higher power that we have no way of knowing on a personal basis. When I asked if he objected to the core belief of the Anonymous groups that a higher power was required to beat addiction he said that a "room full of drunks" was his higher power. I asked if this interpretation was welcome within the groups. He seemed to wave it off as a silly question, as the creed was just something they said, but you could interpret it anyway you wished.

The other R, was ordered to go after he was caught with a large amount of cocaine in his car. He was also ordered to mandatory drug testing. As soon as he fulfilled his sentence he immediately quit the meetings and went right back to using. I think he would call himself a recreation user and not addicted.

Quote: Wizard

When I asked if he objected to the core belief of the Anonymous groups that a higher power was required to beat addiction he said that a "room full of drunks" was his higher power. I asked if this interpretation was welcome within the groups. He seemed to wave it off as a silly question, as the creed was just something they said, but you could interpret it anyway you wished.

Yeah, this is basically what my long winded speach was trying to say. "Higher Power" was not _A's way of forcing, or even basing anything on, religion per se.

@ EvenBob, perhaps you're looking at this wrong. Is _A unsuccessful? I would say no, high failure rates notwithstanding. Wizard's post is a perfect example, as were the things PaiGowDan supplied. _A is not a magic pill, nor is it a brainwashing seminar or mind control voodoo. It is simply a tool for those who WANT to quit. It is no different than music lessons, a weight room, or a college lecture in that respect. You could bring Beethoven back from the dead and spend every waking moment with him, but you're only going to learn from him if you want to and put the work into it. and to do something incredibly difficult, say 10 reps of 200lbs or quit meth, having someone pushing you yelling "you can do it!" is a tremendous help.