Golden Touch Crap(s)?

I was at the Wheeling Island casino in West Virginia when I had a new experience. I had been playing poker downstairs and decided to take a break and play some craps upstairs. Bought in for $300 and waited for the next shooter. Point was 5 and I bought the 6 & 8 for $12 each. The shooter was spinning the dice to get the 4s up. He rolled the 8 twice and then the 6. I placed the 9 for $10 and hit it on the next roll. The pit boss came over and said "Sir, please don't set the dice. Just pick them up the way the dealer gives them to you and roll them." The shooter wasn't the only one with a surprised look on his face! He asked what the problem was. PB says "The word from management is...no more dice setting allowed!"

The shooter shook his head, laughed, and thru another 8. I wasn't happy at all because I like to throw with 4s up, too. I really don't think it makes any difference, but I should have the choice! Shooter throws another 9 and I told the dealer to go ahead and take my bets down. Next was a 4 and then a 7. I'm up $100, so I scoop my chips up and head to the cashiers cage. On the way, I stop and ask the PB if I heard him right. After about 5 minutes of back and forth with him, we both agreed that as long as both dice hit the back wall, the roll is random. He did try to tell me that it slows down the game, but this shooter wasn't even taking 2 seconds to do it!

Anyway, I'm composing an e-mail to send to as many casino executives at Wheeling Island as I can find the addresses for. Going to try real hard to keep it factual and polite, but I believe that I'll have to put something in it about goofball excuses for casino execs gullible enough to buy a book on dice setting and believe in it. Maybe they should quit their job at the casino and become a professional dice player!!

I personally believe that the only way to make money with dice setting is to sell books and charge for seminars to people foolish enough to pay you!

Oddly pit bosses are often the most superstitious ones in the casino.

Shame on that casino! If I ran a casino I'd welcome dice setters, as long as they didn't slow down a crowded table too much. Even if there are some who can influence the dice, they are outnumbered by 100 to 1 by those who think they can, but can't. At least in my opinion.

At the old Boardwalk casino a friend of mine wanted to play craps and he set the dice; I think just because he liked to have the number he wanted to roll on top when he picked them up. The dealers warned him twice not to do it. So told my I friend we should go somewhere else where we would be welcome. In all fairness, the table was a tub (the small kind), but they should have been able to tell he was just a yahoo making $5 bets.

If they are so conserned about taking too long to set the dice, they should send the dice the way the shooter wants them. That's what they do where I play

Quote: miplet

If they are so concerned about taking too long to set the dice, they should send the dice the way the shooter wants them. That's what they do where I play

I agree and I have had that happen at many Downtown Vegas casinos. Although I have noticed that when a shooter gets on a good roll, they will ask him not to take so long to set the dice.

Quote: woodytyme

I stop and ask the PB if I heard him right. After about 5 minutes of back and forth with him, we both agreed that as long as both dice hit the back wall, the roll is random.

He agrees that it's random, and still told the shooter to not set the dice? Sounds like a casino policy more than a pit boss sweating the money/dice.

Quote: woodytyme

Anyway, I'm composing an e-mail to send to as many casino executives at Wheeling Island as I can find the addresses for.

Be sure to state the date and time, and if you know it, the name of the pit boss you spoke to.

Perhaps your email should include a comment by a recognized expert in the gaming industry. Such as:

Quote: Wizard

If I ran a casino I'd welcome dice setters, as long as they didn't slow down a crowded table too much. Even if there are some who can influence the dice, they are outnumbered by 100 to 1 by those who think they can, but can't. At least in my opinion.

Quote: miplet

If they are so conserned about taking too long to set the dice, they should send the dice the way the shooter wants them. That's what they do where I play

Excellent point, and excellent idea!

Quote: Wizard

Shame on that casino! If I ran a casino I'd welcome dice setters, as long as they didn't slow down a crowded table too much. Even if there are some who can influence the dice, they are outnumbered by 100 to 1 by those who think they can, but can't. At least in my opinion.

Splendid point. This is the approximate ratio I see at the Craps tables as well!

Why title this thread :"Golden Touch Crap(s)?"

Scoblete is only one of several salesmen peddling this snake oil.

Quote: Wizard

Shame on that casino! If I ran a casino I'd welcome dice setters, as long as they didn't slow down a crowded table too much. Even if there are some who can influence the dice, they are outnumbered by 100 to 1 by those who think they can, but can't. At least in my opinion.

Honest question then, if you ran a casino, would you allow card counters? I'm not sure if dice setters are real, or if they are a real threat to a casino. That said, let's pretend they are as your post would suggest. Let's pretend 1 out of 100 can actually gain an advantage on the casino. That seems like the percentage of people that actually can count and hurt a casino. If the percentage of people that can gain a real advantage counting is the same that can gain a real advantage by setting, the setters would actually hurt a casino more because more people are going to benefit from their setting than would benefit from a single counter. The unknowing public would benefit, while a counter would only benefit himself or his team.

Quote: MrV

Why title this thread :"Golden Touch Crap(s)?"

Scoblete is only one of several salesmen peddling this snake oil.

But he is the most famous.

Quote: Ike

Honest question then, if you ran a casino, would you allow card counters? I'm not sure if dice setters are real, or if they are a real threat to a casino. That said, let's pretend they are. Let's pretend 1 out of 100 can actually gain an advantage on the casino. That seems like the percentage of people that actually can count and hurt a casino. If the percentage of people that can gain a real advantage counting is the same that can gain a real advantage by setting, the setters would actually hurt a casino more because more people are going to benefit from their setting than would benefit from a single counter. The unknowing public would benefit, while a counter would only benefit himself or his team.

Ike
Good question.

Quote: AZDuffman

But he is the most famous.

Yep, that's why I used his "Winning System" as an example of how gullible some people can be (including casino execs!).

Quote: Ike

Honest question then, if you ran a casino, would you allow card counters? I'm not sure if dice setters are real, or if they are a real threat to a casino. That said, let's pretend they are as your post would suggest. Let's pretend 1 out of 100 can actually gain an advantage on the casino. That seems like the percentage of people that actually can count and hurt a casino. If the percentage of people that can gain a real advantage counting is the same that can gain a real advantage by setting, the setters would actually hurt a casino more because more people are going to benefit from their setting than would benefit from a single counter. The unknowing public would benefit, while a counter would only benefit himself or his team.

Casinos allow folks who count cards. They do so because they know that truly beating the house by counting is a very, very tough skill to master. And, as you say, a single counter can really only help himself and not other betters.

I believe casinos do not view dice setters as a danger to their business provided the back wall is contacted by each throw made by the dice setter.

That said, I personally believe that a practiced dice thrower can, on occasion, alter the percentages slightly. And, just doing so every so often can be meaningful since setting and throwing the dice in a controlled way can never negatively effect the overall randomness of the game!

Quote: Ike

Let's pretend 1 out of 100 can actually gain an advantage on the casino. That seems like the percentage of people that actually can count and hurt a casino. If the percentage of people that can gain a real advantage counting is the same that can gain a real advantage by setting, the setters would actually hurt a casino more because more people are going to benefit from their setting than would benefit from a single counter. The unknowing public would benefit, while a counter would only benefit himself or his team.

=
It's probably more like 1 in 10,000, if it's possible at all. And card counting requires some math, patience, a good memory and a very large bankroll to make it worthwhile and to ride out the ups and downs. At a 1% advantage Advantage I don't know why casinos would even bother sweating less than $25 bets.

I've never understood why casinos don't just limit the spread on the BJ tables. If the count requires a bet 3x your base bet and the limit on the table is $10min-$15max, that would seem to take away any advantage a card counter would need. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a black-chip player sit down at a $5-$200 table with the rookies and low rollers?!

One of the "suggestions" in the Golden Touch Crap(s) system is to buy your own table to practice on!! Not only is this expensive Buy a Craps Table even IF you could gain an advantage on that table, what good would it do you in a casino?! Some casinos Downtown have felt and padding as soft as a couch, while the ones at Sams Town are paper thin and you can hear the dice hit with a loud "thwack"!

I am surprised at how many people in the pole have had this happen to them.

Casino's want people to chase losses and rise up their bets. They don't want Jonny Lucky to sit and grind out at $10 when he's up $200 through lucky cards. They want him betting $25 to $50 as he rides his wave. They want Gary Unlucky to bet bigger each hand, trying to Martingale out of trouble. Bigger spreads should increase the average bet, and make more money in far more cases than the average counter coming along. They've got other techniques to get the counter.

Quote: thecesspit

Casino's want people to chase losses and rise up their bets. They don't want Jonny Lucky to sit and grind out at $10 when he's up $200 through lucky cards. They want him betting $25 to $50 as he rides his wave. They want Gary Unlucky to bet bigger each hand, trying to Martingale out of trouble. Bigger spreads should increase the average bet, and make more money in far more cases than the average counter coming along. They've got other techniques to get the counter.

Ive met Gary, he had just had his house repossesed, his wife had left him for his best mate, and his daughter has been knocked up by her teacher. But he was still betting $10 a hand on blackjack...

Quote: Ike

Honest question then, if you ran a casino, would you allow card counters? I'm not sure if dice setters are real, or if they are a real threat to a casino. That said, let's pretend they are as your post would suggest. Let's pretend 1 out of 100 can actually gain an advantage on the casino. That seems like the percentage of people that actually can count and hurt a casino. If the percentage of people that can gain a real advantage counting is the same that can gain a real advantage by setting, the setters would actually hurt a casino more because more people are going to benefit from their setting than would benefit from a single counter. The unknowing public would benefit, while a counter would only benefit himself or his team.

First, I reject the premise that only 1 in 101 counters are good enough to beat the odds. It is not difficult to gain the advantage counting cards. If I ran a casino, no, I would not let card counters play.

Second, even if we accept the premise that 1 in 101 dice setters were for real, I would still allow all of them. Why cause ill will banning 100 of them to get rid of the one good one? It would not bother me that craps players tend to win or lose as a group. That knife cuts both ways.

Quote: Wizard

First, I reject the premise that only 1 in 101 counters are good enough to beat the odds. It is not difficult to gain the advantage counting cards. If I ran a casino, no, I would not let card counters play.

Second, even if we accept the premise that 1 in 101 dice setters were for real, I would still allow all of them. Why cause ill will banning 100 of them to get rid of the one good one? It would not bother me that craps players tend to win or lose as a group. That knife cuts both ways.

I mostly agree with this response, only because I think it's much easier to learn to count than control dice...if controlling dice is even possible. That said, although there are a great number of competent counters out there, there are a million who watched the movie, think they can count, never practice and go to the casino and lose lose lose. Then you have the counters out there that spread bets larger than their bankroll allows. They also go broke. I think casinos could benefit by being more liberal with suspected counters, and only manage the ones that can really hurt them. Counting may be easy to learn the nuts and bolts, but it takes a lot of practice to be perfect.

Quote: Ike

the setters would actually hurt a casino more because more people are going to benefit from their setting than would benefit from a single counter.

That's EXACTLY why they don't want to even RISK one "Dice Influencer"...because even if there was just ONE, and their just HAPPENED to be some heavy betters there, oops, there goes $100k out the door...

To be honest, there may be some paranoid pit bosses, surveillance operators or executives that give dice setters a hard time because they sweat the money, but they are in the minority. Most executives and members of table games management are more concerned with these people slowing down the dice, getting less rolls per hour and in the end costing the casino a hefty some because their rolls per hour has been significantly decreased.


I will say that dice setter snake oil salesmen love casinos scolding dice setters. It allows them to say, "See, they won't let me use my methods, that's proof what I do works!"

I'd like to recruit two or three dice-setters and test their abilities. I'd be willing to do a laboratory experiment, too: regulation table and dice in a quiet room, letting them take their time, take breaks, get in the mood, no obstacles on the throwing area, etc etc. As long as I could get a total of 10,000 throws each.

The idea is that if they can't do it under such conditions, then it's hokum. If they can, then we can discuss a test under real conditions, at a real casino with real money and real pit bosses and/or dealers messing with them.

Of course borrowing a regulation table wont be cheap or easy...

The way I see it the theory sounds plausible. If the dice are thrown with precision each time, they ought to rotate in a similar manner (speed, axes etc) and could conceivably achieve the desired result a good part of the time (assuming here the desired result is to avoid throwing a 7). But there are way too many variables, including the back wall, to say that yes, it is possible, or no, it's not possible.

Make sure one of your witnesses, unknown to the dice setters, is a qualified magician. The hand is quicker than the eye!!!!

Quote: Nareed

If the dice are thrown with precision each time, they ought to rotate in a similar manner (speed, axes etc) and could conceivably achieve the desired result a good part of the time (assuming here the desired result is to avoid throwing a 7).

you can set the dice in such a way that if axis and correlation are maintained, a '7' is what is rolled , no matter they keep turning on the axis

Quote:

I'd like to recruit two or three dice-setters and test their abilities. I'd be willing to do a laboratory experiment

But what could you do to really entice them to participate?

What I'd like to do is get a bunch of Darkside players together, at least some of whom are dice setters. Then just declare the table for the Darkside only! Once somebody 7-d out, it'd be a good thing the dice are passed, the next player would also have the same goals and the dice setters, who get tired, get plenty of time to crack their knuckles. [I can testify that it is tiring, having toyed with it]

I can promise you one day I am going to decide what I can risk and really hit some place that has 10X odds, placing full odds without fail, and keep at it for a week or so to see what happens. Should I not have as much as I envision, 5X odds anyway, and for a couple of days anyway. It'd be great to have a table that was all darkside.

All depends, if the economy keeps going in the tank I'll maybe be able to pitch pennies.

Quote: odiousgambit

you can set the dice in such a way that if axis and correlation are maintained, a '7' is what is rolled , no matter they keep turning on the axis

How? more important, how do you have to throw?

Quote:

But what could you do to really entice them to participate?

The usual: Money. I don't have any right now, but that might change. also an endorsement for their seminars, complete with test results and expectations based on them (if you can achieve similsr results, you'd be guaranteed an annual income above $150,000!!!!!).

Quote:

It'd be great to have a table that was all darkside.

Yes, it would. Though the last time I played darkside, at Rapid Craps, I shot three come out 11s in a row. I'm still uspet about it, too, thirteen months later...

Quote: Nareed

How? more important, how do you have to throw?

Sevens set #1 is an example. In some browsers it is hard to see this, but the next spin brings up 5+2, then of course it is 1+6 again. The axis is formed by an imaginary line through the 3 which btw is also a 3 facing the same way on the other die. I learned all I know from this page!

PS not sure that answers your question about "how" to throw

Quote:

Yes, it would. Though the last time I played darkside, at Rapid Craps, I shot three come out 11s in a row. I'm still uspet about it, too, thirteen months later...

Now if you had known about sevens set #1 some of these sets , you could've avoided that! [g] [edited]

btw I wasn't unhappy about my last try at setting in DE, but nothing probably could have saved me from the hole I dug right off the bat.

Quote: odiousgambit

Sevens set #1 is an example. In some browsers it is hard to see this, but the next spin brings up 5+2, then of course it is 1+6 again. The axis is formed by an imaginary line through the 3 which btw is also a 3 facing the same way on the other die. I learned all I know from this page!

I'll look it up.

If I could confidently throw a seven I'd play the "any seven" bet and forget about don't pass entirely.

Quote:

Now if you had known about sevens set #1 , you could've avoided that! [g]

Three come out 7s when playing a don't pass bet is as bad as 3 11s.

BTW it might not be a bad idea to try to take over a craps table and turn it to the dark side as a WoVCon event. We could all wear Darth Vader masks, too :P

Quote: Nareed

BTW it might not be a bad idea to try to take over a craps table and turn it to the dark side as a WoVCon event. We could all wear Darth Vader masks, too :P

Probably not such a good idea after the Bellagio heist...

Quote: odiousgambit

PS not sure that answers your question about "how" to throw.

I can't answer the "how", however, I can tell you what you're trying to do.

If you've read the Wiz' page on this, what the "axis shooter" is trying to do (this may or may not apply to the "correlation shooter") is to keep the dice together as if they are glued, and traveling straight (i.e. exactly parallel to the long wall), hitting the very bottom of the far wall where there is that 45 degree bumper, missing the pryamids. If done correctly, the dice will remain together and/or on axis even after the bounce. In addition, you try to throw them gently, so they don't roll much after they hit.

Mind you, the skill to get all those factors working with any sort of consistancy, requires a TON of practice, if possible at all.

Quote: MathExtremist

Probably not such a good idea after the Bellagio heist...

That seems like a motorcycle helmet.

But, ok, we won't play at the Bellagio and we'll get Darth Vader T-shirts, ok?

The excuse that it slows down the game ticks me off because I use the Hardways Set, and can always get it ready in 5 seconds or less. Meanwhile Joe Yokel is rolling the dice in front of his bet 5x (I'm surprised THAT'S allowed, but I see it often and have never heard it be reprimanded), rubbing the dice on the felt around his bet, shaking them in his hand for 20 seconds, making circles with the dice on the felt, throwing them off the table, etc. But full disclosure, I've never been asked to not set or to hurry up.

Quote: Ike

Most executives and members of table games management are more concerned with these people slowing down the dice, getting less rolls per hour and in the end costing the casino a hefty some because their rolls per hour has been significantly decreased.

This frequent assertion merits a second glance. If the casinos are so all-fired worried about rolls or decisions per hour, then they could easily lower the minimums for all those $20, $25, $50 and $100 tables instead of having whole crews standing around twiddling their thumbs for hours on end awaiting one or two customers.

Quote: Ike

I will say that dice setter snake oil salesmen love casinos scolding dice setters. It allows them to say, "See, they won't let me use my methods, that's proof what I do works!"

LOL! I like that one, Ike! That is exactly what they would do!

Quote: SanchoPanza

This frequent assertion merits a second glance. If the casinos are so all-fired worried about rolls or decisions per hour, then they could easily lower the minimums for all those $20, $25, $50 and $100 tables instead of having whole crews standing around twiddling their thumbs for hours on end awaiting one or two customers.

This is what people don't understand about table games. They see empty table games, or higher limit table games with tables that aren't full. To a casino, one $25 player is more profitable than three $10 players because the empty table allows more decisions per hour for the $25 player and the expected win for that table is greater over an hour than at the $10 table with three players.

There are some terribly incompetent members of table games management out there that have no idea how to manage table limits, but most that have been around any time at all are pretty good at it. Although it may not seem like it to the general public who can't see past the empty seats, most of the time the pit bosses are maximizing profit for the casino.

Sometimes they know exactly what they're doing.

The Sands in PA has four craps tables. Three are usually $15, and one is $25.

A few months ago, I was ready to go home after winning several hundred at poker. But I had a profit to play with, and the itch for craps. The three $15 tables were full. I couldn't get it for anything. Disgusted, I finally joined the 4 people at the $25 table.

So the goal was achieved. They got me to play at a level higher than I intended.




But the joke's on them. In about half an hour, I won about $150 and went home. Sweet!

Ike

It sounds like you might know a thing or two about how they run casinos, with your statement!

Quote:

There are some terribly incompetent members of table games management out there that have no idea how to manage table limits, but most that have been around any time at all are pretty good at it. Although it may not seem like it to the general public who can't see past the empty seats, most of the time the pit bosses are maximizing profit for the casino.

Although on the other side of the coin, from what I have seen in the casinos, casinos can't win if they have no players!

Running off dice setters is just plain stupid on the casinos part! The snake oil sales men, as some of you guys want to call them, were so good the even sold the DI thing to the casinos.
They to believe that dice setters can ruin their bottom line!!
When that is far from the truth; 99% of the dice setters are losers! There are only a few so-called DI's that can get on good rolls, most of the time when they have the dice!

What the dice setters do is bring in money to the casino, it's very plain and simple!
Sure they might get on a good roll some times, then again most guys the roll the dice will get on good rolls! The casinos are just like everybody else, they remember the bad things, that is how superstitions are born!
The so-called DI's play way more than the guys that only play a few times a year! So when the casino sees one of this DI's winning they freak-out!
They remember the bad thing that is happening right now, not how many time the same guy lost money to them!

Now days running off all the guys that set the dice, and you have a major problem, you have no players, because just about everybody sets the dice!!

If I was running a casino, I would worry more about the guy that is playing the don't, and is shooting.
They seem to get on some great rolls, just about every time they pick-up the dice. Because nobody has ever taught them how to make a seven!!

Quote: Wizard

Shame on that casino! If I ran a casino I'd welcome dice setters, as long as they didn't slow down a crowded table too much. Even if there are some who can influence the dice, they are outnumbered by 100 to 1 by those who think they can, but can't. At least in my opinion.

Now I would agree with the Wizard on this, but put it at thousands to one! The casinos are running off players, and it's stupid!
The snake oil salesmen as you guys call them, are so smart at what they are doing, they even got the casinos believing them, its way to funny!

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Note,   all my post start with this is just my opinion...!

You do good brada ..!

superrick