When is it skill and when is it chance?
More often games involve elements of skill AND chance. I've heard one definition that says that if chance exceeds skill in a game, it's a game of chance. So, I guess that would be 51%, somehow attributable to skill to make it a game of skill.
How do you decide? What's your definition, if any?
But FWIW, I would define the demarcation as the point where you can control things turns into something you can't control. The first part is skill, the second is luck.
Quote: rxwineI would argue even Keno involves some skill. (very limited yes) But it would be knowing and making the bet the has the best return of the different combinations offered.
I wouldn't classify choosing minimum house edge game as a skill in the context of games. Also I don't consider Blackjack as a skill game as the strategy is static. In order for there to exist skill, the game has to have some dynamic element to it, where a dynamic element means that the strategy cannot be represented by a static chart.
Quote: Jufo81I wouldn't classify choosing minimum house edge game as a skill in the context of games. Also I don't consider Blackjack as a skill game as the strategy is static. In order for there to exist skill, the game has to have some dynamic element to it, where a dynamic element means that the strategy cannot be represented by a static chart.
Then by your definition, casinos have no skill games other than sport betting since every casino-banked games have options that always have a lower house edge like splitting your tiles a certain way or hitting a 12 against a 10. I would consider knowing the strategy or bet a skill. By your definition playing Who Wants to Be A Millionaire or Jeopardy or even doing maths in your head requires no skill since there is only 1 right answer to each question. I disagree with that. I believe any game where you can make a choice after placing your bet that will change the game's outcome is a game of skill. Blackjack and Pai Gow tiles are games of skill because the outcome depends largely on how you use your cards or split your tiles. Craps is not a game of skill because once you placed a bet, your subsequent actions do not affect the outcome. Table poker games where you can raise, fold or draw extra cards require skills.
Quote: HKrandomThen by your definition, casinos have no skill games other than sport betting since every casino-banked games have options that always have a lower house edge like splitting your tiles a certain way or hitting a 12 against a 10. I would consider knowing the strategy or bet a skill. By your definition playing Who Wants to Be A Millionaire or Jeopardy or even doing maths in your head requires no skill since there is only 1 right answer to each question. I disagree with that. I believe any game where you can make a choice after placing your bet that will change the game's outcome is a game of skill. Blackjack and Pai Gow tiles are games of skill because the outcome depends largely on how you use your cards or split your tiles. Craps is not a game of skill because once you placed a bet, your subsequent actions do not affect the outcome. Table poker games where you can raise, fold or draw extra cards require skills.
Your definition of skill is of course a possible one as well, so I won't dispute it, I just disagree. I am worried about those gamblers who believe that their "skill" can turn a negative expectation game into a positive one. I am sad to see people at the casino with such fallacies. That's why I prefer the stricter definition that no casino game is a game of skill to avoid false beliefs and disappoitments among players.
Quote: Jufo81Your definition of skill is of course a possible one as well, so I won't dispute it, I just disagree. I am worried about those gamblers who believe that their "skill" can turn a negative expectation game into a positive one. I am sad to see people at the casino with such fallacies. That's why I prefer the stricter definition that no casino game is a game of skill to avoid false beliefs and disappoitments among players.
I wouldn't go that far. FWIW, I would break down a BJ hand as follows:
PRE-HAND:
Skill: decision to play blackjack
Skill: knowing the math
Skill: knowing the count
Skill: placing your bet (not the act of putting chips on the spot, but calculating the best bet given what you know/control)
HAND:
Luck: cards dealt to you
Skill: adjusting count based on what's happened to players in front of you
Skill: adding the cards (meaning, if you randomly hit, stand, split, double, etc. you would do worse than if you add up your cards and decide)
Skill: H/S/P/D decision
Luck: (if) what card you draw
Skill: subsequent adding and H/S/P/D decisions
Luck: subsequent (if) what card you draw/what happens after you play (players behind you, dealer)
IMHO, the better you can execute the "skill" parts of BJ (meaning, the more you use the count, your bet, your decisions, etc.), the better you'll do as compared to someone who doesn't execute the skills.
There are other games, like the Big Wheel, where there's not so much skill ...
PRE-SPIN:
Skill: decision to play
Skill: knowing the math
Skill: placing your bet
SPIN:
Luck: where the wheel lands
It is arguable that the best "skill" decision in the Big Wheel is the decision not to play since other games offer better EV (meaning, less negative).
But in the end, I wouldn't say casino games are devoid of skill. I would say that payoffs are mathematically designed to keep player EV negative.
Quote: buzzpaffA lot less skillful than using coupons when grocery shopping
Agree. To me it's not a skill to look from the strategy table whether to hit or stand 16 vs. 10 unless you classify being able to read as a skill.
Quote: Jufo81I wouldn't classify choosing minimum house edge game as a skill in the context of games. Also I don't consider Blackjack as a skill game as the strategy is static. In order for there to exist skill, the game has to have some dynamic element to it, where a dynamic element means that the strategy cannot be represented by a static chart.
Optimal strategy in blackjack is definitely not static, except for the first hand out of every shoe, and only then if there are no other players on the table. In every other situation, you have information available which may alter the optimal strategy from the printed-card basic strategy. The fact that most players don't use that information doesn't mean it's not there, able to be used.
Unless you intend to suggest that no game against a random distribution, no matter how complicated that distribution may be, can be a game of "skill" -- and only those games against another sentient opponent can be "skill-based" games. In that case, even card counting is not a skill, nor is playing optimal strategy at FPDW video poker, even though both can be +EV for the player. That definition belies the typical meaning of "skill", however.
Is Texas Hold'em poker a skill-based game? What if it's played against a computer running an algorithm instead of a human opponent? Does it matter how complicated the algorithm is? More importantly, how is playing poker against a computer algorithm any different, from a skill standpoint, than playing blackjack against a computer algorithm?
Quote: MathExtremistOptimal strategy in blackjack is definitely not static, except for the first hand out of every shoe, and only then if there are no other players on the table. In every other situation, you have information available which may alter the optimal strategy from the printed-card basic strategy. The fact that most players don't use that information doesn't mean it's not there, able to be used.
Ok, I was referring to BJ tables that are shuffled after every hand. I agree that if you card count, it makes the strategy dynamic and it passes the definition of a skill game at this point.
Quote: MathExtremist
Unless you intend to suggest that no game against a random distribution, no matter how complicated that distribution may be, can be a game of "skill" -- and only those games against another sentient opponent can be "skill-based" games. In that case, even card counting is not a skill, nor is playing optimal strategy at FPDW video poker, even though both can be +EV for the player. That definition belies the typical meaning of "skill", however.
I'd say that any game where the odds vary dynamically (from one deal to next) can be considered skill games whereas the games where the strategy is static (no matter how complicated) are not skill games.
Quote: MathExtremist
Is Texas Hold'em poker a skill-based game? What if it's played against a computer running an algorithm instead of a human opponent? Does it matter how complicated the algorithm is? More importantly, how is playing poker against a computer algorithm any different, from a skill standpoint, than playing blackjack against a computer algorithm?
Computer-opponent or human opponent, the optimal strategy can't be stated with a list of rules, so it's a skill game. Only if you know every action of the computer perfectly, only then the skill factor vanishes.
Noughts and crosses is a game of skill, not luck. The amount of skill is minimal, but it's pretty much all skill. Chess is also almost all skill but there a lot more required.
Let us consider Keno. Yeah, keno. And whats more, let us make it the old fashioned kind of keno, you know, the printed paper form and crayon type game that used to be a big deal in Vegas but is now mainly a video type thing. Keno is very easy to describe. My favorite definition is "you mark ten numbers and then you give it to the Tits". This of course dates back to the days of attractive young ladies in Vegas being employed as Keno Runners. Is it skill? Well, the ability to use a crayon seems to indicate that not much skill is involved. Recently, one five year old girl being dragged around a Mega Casino complex happened to discover Keno proudly demonstrated her ability to play the game: she took the crayon and circled the numbers on the Keno ticket... ALL of them. So once we get beyond the five year olds and the manual dexterity to manipulate the crayon we sort of get to the decision that it has to be a game of chance. After all, it stands to reason now doesn't it?
Unfortunately, pamphleteers and seminar leaders seem to make a pretty good living at selling keno strategy tips. Some keno players, indeed it seems most keno players, swallow this strategy nonsense hook, line and sinker. All this nonsense about overlapping numbers and edge numbers and hot numbers ... so we might question things about intelligence of the players but we are really never going to question that it is pure chance and no skill at all is involved.
Now I'm told some poker players view it as a game of pure psychology rather than cards and dealing with tells and bluffs is surely a skill, not luck. Yet people who supposedly have these skills one year are often nowhere near the top of the heap the next year. And even skill can be defeated by sheer whim. One poker player announced he was raising without looking at his cards and thereafter made statements about his two aces that were entirely truthful. Of course the guy who went all in felt cheated because his opponent had not lied.
So skill or chance or pure whimsy it seems this issue will never be settled. Judges often declare poker to be gambling and then sit down to their own poker games with fellow judges. If we have a minimal skill set involving a crayon and yet seem to lack any understanding of the mathematics that keeps it as pure chance. If we have complex skill sets involving memory and personal interaction, that still doesn't prevent being "card dead".
Skill or chance? Which is it? The only advice I'd offer is: don't argue about skills or influence, just mark the numbers and give it to the tits. Its a game. You can't win if you don't play the game. And you ain't never gonna be asked about your skills when all 20 numbers hit... if that ever does take place.
Interesting points of view.
I look at it this way.
While there is a certain amount of skill involved in filling out a Keno ticket, does that make it a game of skill? No. If it were, one could argue that a Lottery quick-pick is a game of luck, whereas if you select the numbers yourself, it's a game of skill.
What if you're one of the poor souls that bought the Keno strategy seminars and tips, and have diligently applied them? One could argue that it is a skill that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. It's luck that applies to that keyword 'sometimes'.
Most agree that chess is a game of pure skill. But luck plays a big part there, too. It is luck of the draw that you get matched against an inferior opponent (or bad luck to be matched against a superior opponent). Or it could be luck that your superior opponent is distracted or otherwise has a bad day causing him to make mistakes. Does that make chess a game of luck? How would two equally matched computers fare in a chess tourney?
Poker is a pure mix of both.
It's all luck that decides which cards you are dealt. It's all skill that dictates what you do with them. Luck may give you garbage, but skill may allow you to bluff and win. Luck may give you the nuts, but skill allows you to figure out the maximum you can extract from your opponents.
---
While working on my patent for my Poker For Roulette side bet, I have become privvy to what another game developer defines as a casino game of skill: Any time there is a decision to be made after the initial bet is placed, it's a game of skill. If you just place your bet and await your fate, it's luck.
This is an important distinction, because there are some gaming jurisdictions that allow only games of skill, and his patent brings an element of skill (at least by his own definition) to games that are otherwise pure luck.
Sorry, but I'm not naming names - at least not publicly.
As to what is a game of skill v. chance: If Wizard and Jerry Logan get the same score after a long session, it's a skill of chanc, if Wizard gets a lot more, it's a game of skill.
Quote: P90The goal is to win, not to get 1/10 of your money's value back. "AP"s that "AP" on getting comps are only profitable to the casinos.
As to what is a game of skill v. chance: If Wizard and Jerry Logan get the same score after a long session, it's a skill of chanc, if Wizard gets a lot more, it's a game of skill.
And if JL gets a bigger score than the Wizard?
As Video Poker is a mixture of chance and skill, it's possible for a less skillful gambler to do better than a more skillful one. Same with many games (casino games and non-casino games). It's not a binary thing. Games can be skill, chance and knowledge all at once.
A game of skill is a game where you have to make decisions, which affects your odds of your game.
A game of luck is a game where you have to make decisions, which do not affect your odds of the game.
Tic Tac Toe is a game of skill, Roulette is a game of luck.
A game of skill doesn't mean it is beatable though. It just means there are different strategies available - all with different performances.
Quote: MangoJA game of skill doesn't mean it is beatable though.
Good point. That really can be a separate issue from the skill or chance of something.. It's a relevant issue to gambling, but not necessarily to specifically how much skill or chance is actually involved in different games.
Quote: thecesspitAnd if JL gets a bigger score than the Wizard?
Not if the session is long enough.
Quote: thecesspitAs Video Poker is a mixture of chance and skill, it's possible for a less skillful gambler to do better than a more skillful one.
It's even possible in chess. All players at some point get down to guesswork.
Quote: DJTeddyBear...another game developer defines as a casino game of skill: Any time there is a decision to be made after the initial bet is placed, it's a game of skill. If you just place your bet and await your fate, it's luck.
Based on this, could we not categorize most, if not all casino games?
| SKILL | LUCK |
|---|---|
| Blackjack | Roulette |
| Poker* | Craps (?) |
| Slots | |
| Baccarat | |
| Sports Betting** |
* Almost every Poker-based table game (3-card, Let It Ride, Pai Gow), video poker, and live poker have some skill element involved.
(?) Craps has little choice after a bet is played, save for turning bets on/off, bringing bets down, pressing, moving, etc. Not really decisions to affect the game, I would surmise.
** If the definition is "place your bet, await your fate", sports betting falls under luck.
Yeah, it does. That's why I specified casino game.Quote: Dween** If the definition is "place your bet, await your fate", sports betting falls under luck.
