Nareed
Nareed
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March 10th, 2011 at 10:16:54 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

Incorrect. At Downstream Casino (where there is no commission) parking is free. The rules on Pai Gow Poker are the same as they are at any other casino. The lunch buffet was $9.99 (no tax!). I'm not paying for these costs in any way.



Unless you can see their books, you don't know that. The common sesne assumption is that all costs are passed on to the customer, because that's the way business works. Profits is income minus costs. Income depends, partly, on price. Perhaps they have higher minimums, or make it up in volume.
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rdw4potus
rdw4potus
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March 10th, 2011 at 10:23:55 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

Incorrect. At Downstream Casino (where there is no commission) parking is free. The rules on Pai Gow Poker are the same as they are at any other casino. The lunch buffet was $9.99 (no tax!). I'm not paying for these costs in any way.



Maybe they make it up on volume? If people are avoiding the casinos that charge the fees, maybe Downstream and others are profiting from gaining the business of patrons who boycott the fee charging establishments?
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Croupier
Croupier
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March 11th, 2011 at 5:24:51 AM permalink
Maybe the slots are especially tight to cover the expenses. Would seem to me the easiest way to hide the cost.
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FinsRule
FinsRule
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March 11th, 2011 at 6:54:30 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Unless you can see their books, you don't know that. The common sesne assumption is that all costs are passed on to the customer, because that's the way business works. Profits is income minus costs. Income depends, partly, on price. Perhaps they have higher minimums, or make it up in volume.



I have a history of not explaining myself well. I'm sure the commission is passed on to customers. I think tight slots is probably the easiest way to do it.

BUT, since I did not play slots, and like I said, I had a pretty average $9.99 lunch buffet and only played Pai Gow, the cost was not passed on to me personally.

My best guess is that the $10 tables there are actually loss leaders. They make tons of money on the slots, and on high house edge table games, side bets, or big bettors.

If you just went there and played $10 Pai Gow / Blackjack for four hours a day, with no sidebets, the casino and you are losing money slowly.
Nareed
Nareed
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March 11th, 2011 at 7:07:33 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

BUT, since I did not play slots, and like I said, I had a pretty average $9.99 lunch buffet and only played Pai Gow, the cost was not passed on to me personally.



You still don't now that :)

A casino with a more efficient operation might control costs enough to offset part of the comissions charged, but not all of it. Maybe it's retrieved through slots, maybe through lower quality food and other services, maybe through having less staff available.

It's like saying you drink Coke but don't pay for Coke's advertising. Not directly, but where does Coca Cola get the money for its ads?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
JIMMYFOCKER
JIMMYFOCKER
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March 11th, 2011 at 7:23:45 AM permalink
Oklahome has very good video poker from what I've read, lots of very good progressives around the state.

A friend of mine profited nearly $100,000 last year chasing these around the state.
midwestgb
midwestgb
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March 11th, 2011 at 8:58:54 AM permalink
I live next door to OK and have played in several of their Indian casinos. Here is what I've gleaned after asking about the $.50 Table Game 'fee' or 'toke' that one is charged. I believe this is per hand dealt, so by increasing one's bet amount you naturally can reduce the effective percentage of the fee. BTW, Downstream casino in the very NE corner of the state (along I-44, and a new, very nice establishment btw) does not openly charge the fee.
In asking about the policy, I've been told that they do 'eat' the fee. I would guess they do so via the slot revenues as their VP/slot machines are quite tight.

But here is the kicker, I've been told the state rule re the fee is that the casinos must take the fee receipts and place them in a separate fund that is awarded back to the public via a different game or event, i.e. a more generalized lottery-type of promotion. I do not understand the rationale for this requirement. I assume it was devised as a way to reward a portion of table game revenues back to the general public.

I have seen some excellent VP paytables at the smaller casinos around OK. Also, table gaming in OK is limited to blackjack and poker-type games. No craps or roulette.
Scotty71
Scotty71
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March 11th, 2011 at 12:02:23 PM permalink
Consider the following

Indian tribal businesses do pay a wide variety of taxes, including taxes on wagering, occupational taxes, and employment taxes. For federal income tax purposes, however, Indian tribes are governmental entities and, as such, are not required to pay taxes on the income generated by the Indian tribes, including income generated by commercial activities. - www.nigc.gov/About_Us/Frequently_Asked_Questions.aspx

For them to stay in biz they don't need to gross as much as MGM, Sands etc.. as they don't have to pay the biggest chunk of taxes (Fed). There wouldn't be an advantage of using debt in their transactions either. Whereas most casino groups are heavy users of debt for tax reasons. I wouldn't worry about them going under for eating the fee, they either aren't extra greedy or they feel they need to do it to compete.

I have heard some OK casino's deal a card based craps game.... not sure how this type of state vig would get worked into that. If anyone knows I'd be curious to hear about it.
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midwestgb
midwestgb
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March 11th, 2011 at 12:08:16 PM permalink
Scotty,

Downstream had the card-craps game for about six months last year, then dropped it. Not sure how the toke was charged, never played it.
7outlineaway
7outlineaway
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March 11th, 2011 at 12:22:46 PM permalink
Could there be some circumvention or liberal interperetation of what constitutes an "original bet" and what constitutes a "side bet"? For example, your first bet when you walk up to the BJ table is an "original bet" and every bet thereafter is a "side bet". Then the casino's only eating 50 cents on an entire session. Or on a multi-play VP machine, only one hand is an "orginial bet".

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