Commission at Oklahoma Casinos...Why?
Its just a way of squeezing more money out of the players, particularly at low-bet tables.
Some casinos charge a commission for making a BJ bet of less than a certain amount. So they accommodate the fleas by taking their bets but slap them with a surcharge for doing it.
I played at Kiowa a year or two back. I hadn't played blackjack in a while and felt the itch while I was traveling through the area, since my home state does not allow casino gambling. Lost nearly all of my $100 buy-in in a matter of a few minutes. Took about $8 worth of chips to the window to cash out, and the cashier (kidding around) asked me, "Big bills?" I went along and replied, "Yes, big bills." We both had a laugh. Put the remainder into a dollar slot and got back up to around $60. Took that to the TCP table (where they also charged .50 commission on each bet) and worked that up to around $200 in just a few hands (every hand paid a bonus, either straights or flushes, even toking the dealer). Went back to the window and told the same lady, "Now I'll take big bills!" Both laughed, and I left with my meager winnings. Point is, each table game required a .50 commission on each hand. Haven't played, and won't play, anywhere in Oklahoma since.
Quote: pecoggI mentioned recently, in another thread, that I live near Oklahoma, but refuse to play there, as each casino I've been to (2), charged a .50 commission on all table game bets. My meager Internet research skills have been unable to help me determine why this is. Is it some sort of policy, state law, or do the casinos just do this because they can? I was convinced it was state law until, recently, a friend who was travelling near Oklahoma told me that a casino just inside the Oklahoma state line, had a commission-free promotion for the weekend. Does anyone know for sure? Thanks in advance.
Yes, it's a state law. Oklahoma only has Indian casinos. As part of the compact with the Indians allowing casinos to have table games, the casinos must collect .50 commission on all table game bets (side bets are not subject to the $.50)
Some casinos do not charge the commission to the players, they "eat" it themselves.
Quote: pecoggThanks for the information! Wow, it's hard to believe there's a casino out there that would voluntarily eat that expense, when they could just as easily fall back on "we have no option; it's state law." Wonder how anyone gets ahead - it's hard enough to stay even or make a small profit when one doesn't have a per-hand commission to contend with. Thanks.
Any costs imposed by government are paid by the cutomer, no matter how vehemently the seller claims to absorb it. In this case the casinos who "eat" the comission make it up in house edge or in some other way (food, drink, hotels, shows, parking, whatever).
Quote: NareedAny costs imposed by government are paid by the cutomer, no matter how vehemently the seller claims to absorb it. In this case the casinos who "eat" the comission make it up in house edge or in some other way (food, drink, hotels, shows, parking, whatever).
Incorrect. At Downstream Casino (where there is no commission) parking is free. The rules on Pai Gow Poker are the same as they are at any other casino. The lunch buffet was $9.99 (no tax!). I'm not paying for these costs in any way.
Quote: FinsRuleIncorrect. At Downstream Casino (where there is no commission) parking is free. The rules on Pai Gow Poker are the same as they are at any other casino. The lunch buffet was $9.99 (no tax!). I'm not paying for these costs in any way.
Unless you can see their books, you don't know that. The common sesne assumption is that all costs are passed on to the customer, because that's the way business works. Profits is income minus costs. Income depends, partly, on price. Perhaps they have higher minimums, or make it up in volume.
Quote: FinsRuleIncorrect. At Downstream Casino (where there is no commission) parking is free. The rules on Pai Gow Poker are the same as they are at any other casino. The lunch buffet was $9.99 (no tax!). I'm not paying for these costs in any way.
Maybe they make it up on volume? If people are avoiding the casinos that charge the fees, maybe Downstream and others are profiting from gaining the business of patrons who boycott the fee charging establishments?
Quote: NareedUnless you can see their books, you don't know that. The common sesne assumption is that all costs are passed on to the customer, because that's the way business works. Profits is income minus costs. Income depends, partly, on price. Perhaps they have higher minimums, or make it up in volume.
I have a history of not explaining myself well. I'm sure the commission is passed on to customers. I think tight slots is probably the easiest way to do it.
BUT, since I did not play slots, and like I said, I had a pretty average $9.99 lunch buffet and only played Pai Gow, the cost was not passed on to me personally.
My best guess is that the $10 tables there are actually loss leaders. They make tons of money on the slots, and on high house edge table games, side bets, or big bettors.
If you just went there and played $10 Pai Gow / Blackjack for four hours a day, with no sidebets, the casino and you are losing money slowly.
Quote: FinsRuleBUT, since I did not play slots, and like I said, I had a pretty average $9.99 lunch buffet and only played Pai Gow, the cost was not passed on to me personally.
You still don't now that :)
A casino with a more efficient operation might control costs enough to offset part of the comissions charged, but not all of it. Maybe it's retrieved through slots, maybe through lower quality food and other services, maybe through having less staff available.
It's like saying you drink Coke but don't pay for Coke's advertising. Not directly, but where does Coca Cola get the money for its ads?
A friend of mine profited nearly $100,000 last year chasing these around the state.
In asking about the policy, I've been told that they do 'eat' the fee. I would guess they do so via the slot revenues as their VP/slot machines are quite tight.
But here is the kicker, I've been told the state rule re the fee is that the casinos must take the fee receipts and place them in a separate fund that is awarded back to the public via a different game or event, i.e. a more generalized lottery-type of promotion. I do not understand the rationale for this requirement. I assume it was devised as a way to reward a portion of table game revenues back to the general public.
I have seen some excellent VP paytables at the smaller casinos around OK. Also, table gaming in OK is limited to blackjack and poker-type games. No craps or roulette.
Indian tribal businesses do pay a wide variety of taxes, including taxes on wagering, occupational taxes, and employment taxes. For federal income tax purposes, however, Indian tribes are governmental entities and, as such, are not required to pay taxes on the income generated by the Indian tribes, including income generated by commercial activities. - www.nigc.gov/About_Us/Frequently_Asked_Questions.aspx
For them to stay in biz they don't need to gross as much as MGM, Sands etc.. as they don't have to pay the biggest chunk of taxes (Fed). There wouldn't be an advantage of using debt in their transactions either. Whereas most casino groups are heavy users of debt for tax reasons. I wouldn't worry about them going under for eating the fee, they either aren't extra greedy or they feel they need to do it to compete.
I have heard some OK casino's deal a card based craps game.... not sure how this type of state vig would get worked into that. If anyone knows I'd be curious to hear about it.
Downstream had the card-craps game for about six months last year, then dropped it. Not sure how the toke was charged, never played it.
Quote: midwestgb
But here is the kicker, I've been told the state rule re the fee is that the casinos must take the fee receipts and place them in a separate fund that is awarded back to the public via a different game or event, i.e. a more generalized lottery-type of promotion. I do not understand the rationale for this requirement. I assume it was devised as a way to reward a portion of table game revenues back to the general public.
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To my understanding, this is correct. You have to look for tournaments that they put on. They put this fund as part of the tournament prize pool. The cost to enter the tournaments are much less than the total of the entry payments. They are in effect partial freerolls.
JClay
Quote: JoeClaytonJust to update this: I have been in the Choctaw Casinos in Durant, Muskogee and Pocola, OK, and the Cherokee in Roland. All of them have the antes for the table games.
JClay
Thanks. I was at Downstream in 2015, and they were still paying the ante for customers with players cards. One stubborn guy was being charged. They were dropping house tokens into the vault every hand or two to account for those they were comping the fee (even/odd players thing, i think). I haven't heard it had changed.
The dealer, when I asked about it, said that the state does audit it regularly. Not sure if they have state agents in the game, but they can track it with the tapes, I would think.
Dog Hand
Quote: DogHandI played both BJ and Pai Gow Poker at Downstream in January of 2019, and the casino was still paying the ante for players who use a players card.
Dog Hand
I've never been three, but everything I've ever heard about Downstream was that they didn't charge the ante.
Of course, the table games at the ones I've been in had a very small percentage of the gambler; most were sitting like zombies at the ding-dings.
JClay
Quote: JoeClaytonI've never been three, but everything I've ever heard about Downstream was that they didn't charge the ante.
Of course, the table games at the ones I've been in had a very small percentage of the gambler; most were sitting like zombies at the ding-dings.
JClay
Downstream tables are quite busy, IMO. And they're not obvious about the ante thing, so some players might not even realize it's happening.
They also had a couple rings (long curved banks) of ClassII (bingo based) slot/vp games left near the sports bar, so check carefully what you're playing.
Quote: beachbumbabsDownstream tables are quite busy, IMO. And they're not obvious about the ante thing, so some players might not even realize it's happening.
The tables I've seen ARE obvious about the ante--there is a spot where the 50 cent chip has to be placed before the deal.
I don't know if the tables at Downstream have a spot for the ante. If I've ever there, I'll look
JClay
