Vegas Buffets
So 1 buffet remains out of more than 40 last March (pre-covid). That is sad to me, a guy who since I moved to Vegas in 2009, have eaten at a casino almost every day (free of charge), split between the non-strip moderate type buffets (think Stations and Boyd) and the cafe type places. This has actually amounted to hidden compensation from my advantage play.
So I am not going to make it a poll, but would like to hear thoughts on whether the buffet era is over, or will return to the way it was pre-covid, or maybe just a handful of higher end strip properties buffets will return, which is what I am thinking, while the local places move in other directions.
ZCore13
If true, Covid is a perfect excuse to not bring them back.
But I gotta wonder two things.
First, Is that number accurate?
Second, are they doing bad accounting?
I.E. Does a buffet comp mean zero income for the buffet?
What I mean is, if every section of a resort is it's own independent profit center, shouldn't the casino be paying for the comped buffet? At least on paper?
If they aren't doing the right kind of accounting, then compare a patron that has a $15 comp and uses it for get the $15 buffet for free, vs going to the coffee house and getting a $15 discount on a $25 bill.
In such a scenario, which looks better, on paper?
Quote: DJTeddyBearIn a recent earnings call, the CEO of Caesars said that their buffets lost $3million per year. The implication was, each buffet, $3m.
If true, Covid is a perfect excuse to not bring them back.
But I gotta wonder two things.
First, Is that number accurate?
Second, are they doing bad accounting?
I.E. Does a buffet comp mean zero income for the buffet?
What I mean is, if every section of a resort is it's own independent profit center, shouldn't the casino be paying for the comped buffet? At least on paper?
If they aren't doing the right kind of accounting, then compare a patron that has a $15 comp and uses it for get the $15 buffet for free, vs going to the coffee house and getting a $15 discount on a $25 bill.
In such a scenario, which looks better, on paper?
Most casinos do offset the comp cost with a value charged to the department issuing the comp. Eg. The table games department will get charged an amount like $10 for the $30 buffet comp.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIn a recent earnings call, the CEO of Caesars said that their buffets lost $3million per year. The implication was, each buffet, $3m.
If true, Covid is a perfect excuse to not bring them back.
But I gotta wonder two things.
First, Is that number accurate?
Second, are they doing bad accounting?
I.E. Does a buffet comp mean zero income for the buffet?
What I mean is, if every section of a resort is it's own independent profit center, shouldn't the casino be paying for the comped buffet? At least on paper?
If they aren't doing the right kind of accounting, then compare a patron that has a $15 comp and uses it for get the $15 buffet for free, vs going to the coffee house and getting a $15 discount on a $25 bill.
In such a scenario, which looks better, on paper?
I knew a guy back in the 90's. He was hired at the Flamingo as the Food and Beverage Director. His job was to reduce F&B losses by $1,000,000 in his first year. Not make a profit. Not break even. Reduce losses.
The buffets may try and stay closed for a short time, but then someone like the M or Red Rock will start offering one and it will force strip properties to bring it back or lose gambler's.
ZCore13
He expects some kind of limitations on guests serving themselves. It may mean servers or prepared plates, or simply table service which has already been tried but failed.
From what I understand all buffets are a loss leader, but an essential loss leader. That simply means casinos lose money on them but must offer them to bring in players.
Personally I miss them. I milked them and used every free buffet offer I ever got. Pre Covid I had at least four free buffets a week.
I do predict they are coming back. The casinos haven't touched them from what I can tell, they look like they can re-open as soon as it is safe. Mostly it is that no large casino wants to be the only one that doesn't offer them. The other possibility of all-you-can-eat with a waitstaff bringing everything might have a place. Not good for me. The strip could charge $55 per person, plus drinks; Gold Coast might be $25. That would use up my points pretty quick.
Coronavirus may never go away, but I don't see it being a deadly pandemic or epidemic after enough people are vaccinated.
Quote: TomGAs much as I love the buffets and have missed them as much as anything this past year, they do not make much sense to me. The value the offer to the casino is limited to people who will only come through the doors if there is a buffet, and while they are there will also gamble. Most people who gamble aren't going to a place because it has a buffet. Diner or food court should be fine. Let them use their points and coupons at those places. There is also the opportunity cost. It is a huge area that could be used for more profitable restaurants, stores, more gaming space, etc.
I do predict they are coming back. The casinos haven't touched them from what I can tell, they look like they can re-open as soon as it is safe. Mostly it is that no large casino wants to be the only one that doesn't offer them. The other possibility of all-you-can-eat with a waitstaff bringing everything might have a place. Not good for me. The strip could charge $55 per person, plus drinks; Gold Coast might be $25. That would use up my points pretty quick.
Coronavirus may never go away, but I don't see it being a deadly pandemic or epidemic after enough people are vaccinated.
You premise on the value and who comes through the door is wrong to start. If that was the value, do you think casinos would choose to lose money, sometimes millions?
ZCore13
My guess is the buffet era is over. There might be some hybrid version. Pre covid buffet is gone.
Living in Vegas, buffets never really appealed to me. The food quality is generally sub par (especially lunch and dinner) and I don’t need a smorgasbord of things on my plate. I’ve had a breakfast buffet...but it’s just French toast, bacon and coffee.
Will buffets suffer from fear of infection such that people stay away?
I've never been a germophobe such that I really worry about the sanitary condition of my hotel room, toilet seat or cutlery at a restaurant. Having worked in food service, I know that based on what I have seen and done in the back of the house in a restaurant I know that we all have built up resistance to most of the germs that you can find in public places. Otherwise we would all be dead already. "Sanitized for your protection" has always been a joke, just like "contact-free delivery" is today. If you've ever worked in food service you know that these are meaningless phrases.
That being said, I'm not sure whether I would queue up in the buffet line along with the great unwashed. The people behind the counter making the food are just as contagious whether it's in the back room or on the buffet table. I'm going to catch or be immune from what they've got regardless.
But we're all germophobes now. We've been conditioned, like it or not, without being argumentative, that we all need to mask up, keep our distance, and wash our hands down to the bone. We never did that before, with diseases out there that were probably just as transmittable as COVID.
I'll happily go to a buffet once my vaccine has given a sense of immunity from COVID, whether that's true or not, just like I did before. But maybe there won't be as many people in line in front of me.
I've seen stories about fast food places that make sick workers show up this past year, so yeah, food preparation places are suspect. I'm sticking to frozen foods & canned foods at the supermarket. Maybe I'll get a Subway sandwich at WalMart because there's no line and he wears gloves.
Whatever the potential is of getting COVID after vaccination - and there has certainly not been enough time for reliable studies to have been done to come up with any verifiable number - people will vote with their feet, based on what they think is true, whether it is or not.
My guess is that buffets will be just as popular as they ever were, once people get comfortable with whatever risk they present, over and above the Subway sandwich at Walmart.
I worked at Burger King a long time ago. In spite of what I know goes on there, I still go there on occasion. I am certain that your Walmart Subway operates in a similar fashion. You would be amazed at where that guy's gloves were just before he started making your sandwich. I would not be.
In the new calculation on the part of management as to whether or not buffets will come back, a different customer attitude will need to be factored in. What the public will accept will matter.
Consider the situation at the blackjack table. Will partitions and three-player-only setups survive? At some point the hard plastic separators will come down and the missing chairs will return. The proper emoluments will be paid to the regulators and the rules will be relaxed or ignored.
Just like eight decks and 6:5 blackjacks, the customers will decide for themselves whether or not what they are being offered makes sense to them.
Buffets will come back, and people will queue up just like they always did.
Quote: ChumpChangeI had a next to zero chance of contracting a deadly disease when going out last decade. I will have an ever present chance of contracting a deadly disease for the next 5 to 10 years or more.
I'd be interested in seeing the numbers that validate that statement.
I would imagine, like me, that your likelihood of contracting any disease increases over time as you age and your health declines, regardless of how well you take care of yourself. Unless you are Tom Brady.
Normal aging issues aside, my assumption is that keeping current with vaccines, whether it's for the flu or COVID, will keep the chances of contracting a deadly disease pretty much uniform over time. My guess is that the process which created the various COVID vaccines, much more quickly than has been the case with other maladies, will be adapted to the creation and manufacture of new vaccines, be it for COVID or anything else.
The nanny state will certainly use the pandemic to insist that we knuckle down on masks and social distancing for any and all new crises, justified or not. It was unusual and disconcerting to see someone walking around wearing a mask, pre-COVID. In some jurisdictions we are now subject to arrest if we are NOT masked.
Regardless of whether you agree with the restriction, no smoking rules reduce your exposure to secondhand smoke, and so your chances of getting lung cancer are much less than they used to be. Continuing restrictions, justified or not, will probably protect you against more than just COVID.
One thing that continues to be eroded is our being allowed to think and act for ourselves, and to take personal responsibility for our own health and well-being. I think that the tradeoff for this sacrifice is that, in fact, you will actually have a lesser chance of "contracting a deadly disease for the next 5 to 10 years or more."
Whether or not your life will be better for that? Hard to say.
Quote: fantom...But we're all germophobes now...
No, we're not.
Quote: SOOPOOI will return to Vegas buffets as soon as I can. Hopefully Makino! As a vaccinated person, I think my risk from random violence on the Vegas strip will far exceed my coronavirus risk next October/ November when I plan on being in Vegas. I think once a few casinos open up buffets, the rest will follow. I know enough gamblers that are extremely worthwhile to the casino that drop hundreds and likely thousands for that free buffet. Sadly, I think I’m one of them!
I am way more worried about vacation ruining pathogens other than coronavirus when it comes to buffets.
The most sick I have ever been in my life was coming back from Vegas in 2017. It hit me during the flight back, and hit my fiancé a few days later. She ended up in the hospital, and I was hours away from going myself but was finally able to keep some fluids down.
I am 90% sure it was Norovirus from chipotle, but I’d have to imagine that buffets can easily breed the same nasties.
Quote: Zcore13You premise on the value and who comes through the door is wrong to start. If that was the value, do you think casinos would choose to lose money, sometimes millions?
Could you explain where it is wrong? If someone comes into a casino and only uses the buffet and does not gamble, what is there value to the casino? If someone goes into a casino to gamble, but doesn't use the buffet, what is their value as a customer? What is the percent of customers who do both, gamble and use the buffet? What is their value?
I estimate that the people who come only for the buffet have very little value. If it is a typical off-strip place, it might be $8, minus operating costs -- close to nothing. If it is on the strip, and it costs $60, those visits might be worth something to the casino; but I also estimate that only a small percentage visit the Las Vegas Strip and only spend their money at the buffet, like some people might have done at Fiesta.
At some places, there may be a sufficient number of people who do come and gamble and visit the buffet and would have stayed away if they only had food court or wait service restaurants. For that, I'm thinking Stations, Boyd, Laughlin. At other places, I doubt there are many people like that. If there is not much competition around, then any decent value eating options should have the similar benefits as a buffet. If the place is selling luxury, like the strip does, a buffet is not going to be what brings people in.
If any premise is wrong, it could be the idea that casinos lose millions. Here is one source saying that is not true: https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/question/buffet-loss-leaders/
Yet here is Fertitta saying they are loss leaders: https://www.reviewjournal.com/entertainment/food/buffets-in-las-vegas-casinos-might-have-had-their-day-2031935/
That fits what I said above, about how Stations would have the type of customers that do come for the buffet and gambling, while the strip does not.
At the risk of stereotyping, check out the Asians at the casino buffets. These people often, slimmer folks, heap their plates to overflow (literally) and then eat half. Lol.
Quote: kewljI am thinking tat the cafeteria style, with a server serving patrons rather than patrons serving themselves might actually be cost efficient. The servers would be serving single portions, which should cut down on the waste. When patrons serve themselves, there is ALOT of waste.
At the risk of stereotyping, check out the Asians at the casino buffets. These people often, slimmer folks, heap their plates to overflow (literally) and then eat half. Lol.
I see everything on small individual plates
Want a big portion, take multiple plates
Quote: terapinedI see everything on small individual plates
Want a big portion, take multiple plates
Why take multiple plates initially and then only eat half? You CAN go back for more ya know. :/
Quote: kewljWhy take multiple plates initially and then only eat half? You CAN go back for more ya know. :/
I dont
Just mentioned that for those that like to pig out
My buffet strategy is to take a tiny portion of anything I'm interested in
Quote: DJTeddyBearIn a recent earnings call, the CEO of Caesars said that their buffets lost $3million per year. The implication was, each buffet, $3m.
If true, the folks at Caesars are morons. More than likely, they are using 'selective' accounting to come up with the $3 million loss number.
It could be true the expenses of operating the buffet is $3mill more than the 'revenue'. But are they really reporting all of the revenue in this calculus? I doubt it.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, the history of the Strip Buffet, goes something like:
+ offer low to no cost buffet to entice visitors (gamblers) to their properties
+ offer higher quality, higher priced buffets to entice visitors to their properties
+ offer other amenities to entice visitors to their properties, buffets become deemphasized or just another amenity
+ buffets become viewed as a "we have to have one" even though it's a pain in the ass or the visitors are going somewhere else; though there is no data to back this up
+ buffets are 'temporarily' closed due to public health crisis
Personally, I cannot see Strip Buffets returning in the short term, if ever. Frankly, the only way I see a buffet returning on the Strip is if one property opens their buffet, and it becomes perceived that visitors are flocking to that property for the buffet. Then a second will open, then a third...
Strip Buffets...have they really been around since they changed in the late 90s?
Quote: CalderNo, we're not.
I’m not a germaphobe...but I’m definitely more conscious of communal anything these days. My guess is the majority have taken some precautions since this all started that makes them pause and think.
I still think any “buffet” that comes back will not be under the old guidelines of serve yourself.
Buffet customers should be concerned with heart disease and diabetes, not COVID.
Quote: IndyJeffreyIf true, the folks at Caesars are morons. More than likely, they are using 'selective' accounting to come up with the $3 million loss number.
It could be true the expenses of operating the buffet is $3mill more than the 'revenue'. But are they really reporting all of the revenue in this calculus? I doubt it.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, the history of the Strip Buffet, goes something like:
+ offer low to no cost buffet to entice visitors (gamblers) to their properties
+ offer higher quality, higher priced buffets to entice visitors to their properties
+ offer other amenities to entice visitors to their properties, buffets become deemphasized or just another amenity
+ buffets become viewed as a "we have to have one" even though it's a pain in the ass or the visitors are going somewhere else; though there is no data to back this up
+ buffets are 'temporarily' closed due to public health crisis
Personally, I cannot see Strip Buffets returning in the short term, if ever. Frankly, the only way I see a buffet returning on the Strip is if one property opens their buffet, and it becomes perceived that visitors are flocking to that property for the buffet. Then a second will open, then a third...
Strip Buffets...have they really been around since they changed in the late 90s?
A couple of points...
The management at ElDiablo are idiots. They are worried about losing three million at the buffet, when they in debt for 15 billion.
Also, on paper buffets can be loss leaders, how many ploppies have drop $500 on a slot machine on there way to/from a buffet. That’s why buffets are deep in the bowels of the casino. This is old school Vegas 101.
Quote: jpfromlaAlso, on paper buffets can be loss leaders, how many ploppies have drop $500 on a slot machine on there way to/from a buffet.
Playing a machine with a 10% hold would mean they would have to make $5,000 in bets to give the casino that much value. To answer your question, very few will ever go into a casino only because it has a buffet, then end up playing a machine that costs $7.50 per spin for 45 minutes. Even without a buffet, those customers can be targeted with dining comps to other restaurants, gift cards, bottle of wine, etc. The costs to the casino are specific to players who gamble. With buffets, the casino would take a loss on everyone who eat there. (assuming your statement on being a loss leader is correct).
Quote: TomGPlaying a machine with a 10% hold would mean they would have to make $5,000 in bets to give the casino that much value. To answer your question, very few will ever go into a casino only because it has a buffet, then end up playing a machine that costs $7.50 per spin for 45 minutes. Even without a buffet, those customers can be targeted with dining comps to other restaurants, gift cards, bottle of wine, etc. The costs to the casino are specific to players who gamble. With buffets, the casino would take a loss on everyone who eat there. (assuming your statement on being a loss leader is correct).
I think a casino is happy if someone comes in for a buffet and loses $40 gambling.
Quote: DRichI think a casino is happy if someone comes in for a buffet and loses $40 gambling.
They love customers like that. (They are even happy if someone comes in and wins $40 gambling. And they care mostly about total action and value the player gives them. ie 100 hands of $40 and only winning or losing $40 is far better than one hand of $40 and winning or losing the same amount. If they don't think like that, then they don't know that they are doing anyways and there is no point to the whole discussion about how much of a benefit these buffets are).
But if someone does come into the casino and eats at the buffet and loses $40 in value at blackjack (an hour at $25 per bet for a bad player, or a lot longer for a bs player), they did not come in just for the buffet and incidentally played some games. Gambling was included in the purpose of their visit. In which case it makes more sense to find loss leaders that target those specific customers.
Quote: TomG
But if someone does come into the casino and eats at the buffet and loses $40 in value at blackjack (an hour at $25 per bet for a bad player, or a lot longer for a bs player), they did not come in just for the buffet and incidentally played some games. Gambling was included in the purpose of their visit. In which case it makes more sense to find loss leaders that target those specific customers.
I disagree with this. To me you are saying that there is no impulse gambling. I have went into casinos many time with no intention of gambling and have occasionally gambled.
Quote: DRichI disagree with this. To me you are saying that there is no impulse gambling. I have went into casinos many time with no intention of gambling and have occasionally gambled.
When you found yourself gambling impulsively, did you lose $40 in expected value? An hour at the roulette table at $25 per spin, or four hours of basic strategy at the blackjack table?
Most people who do that did plan to do some gambling. And if that much gambling really was not planned, it just sort of happened on impulse, the casino would be better off using their "loss leader" resources to target them with specific things that will get them into the casino, rather than general amenities.
Quote: kewljWhy take multiple plates initially and then only eat half? You CAN go back for more ya know. :/
A lot of buffets in Asia are once-through-the-line or pay-per-plate (or the unrelated pay-by-weight, which is still labelled 'buffet'), which lead to things like this* happening. Also, I've been to buffets where they enforced a linear route (even though the place was shaped like a triple-lemniscate) that took over twenty minutes to get through because people were so bloody slow... so I just loaded up on everything and said screw it to a second trip.
*Okay, I know this is actually about a salad bar, but similar idea: https://kotaku.com/how-chinese-ingenuity-destroyed-salad-bars-at-pizza-hut-834835079
