darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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Thanks for this post from:
waasnoday
June 29th, 2020 at 5:59:50 PM permalink
Quote: Gabes22

I am all for a private company to mandate the wearing of masks and people can choose to or to not do business with them. I am not for a government edict requiring it. The customers will ultimately have the power to essentially vote with their money.



There are plenty of things the government has to mandate for public safety.

I am sure most people would prefer they get to decide how fast they can drive on highways and the road.

Unfortunately we know what would happen. Everyone would be acting like uncontrollable speed demons.

This pandemic is unusual but the phone of mandating masks is that people aren't listening and it's causing an escalation of the pandemic
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
unJon
unJon
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
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June 29th, 2020 at 6:44:49 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

There are plenty of things the government has to mandate for public safety.

I am sure most people would prefer they get to decide how fast they can drive on highways and the road.

Unfortunately we know what would happen. Everyone would be acting like uncontrollable speed demons.

This pandemic is unusual but the phone of mandating masks is that people aren't listening and it's causing an escalation of the pandemic



Oh the irony of you using a speed limit analogy! You fought so hard to distinguish them when SOOPOO and I were using them to say that government weighs lives vs economy in lots of ways all the time. ;-)
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Gabes22
Gabes22
Joined: Jul 19, 2011
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Thanks for this post from:
RogerKint
June 29th, 2020 at 6:58:14 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

There are plenty of things the government has to mandate for public safety.

I am sure most people would prefer they get to decide how fast they can drive on highways and the road.

Unfortunately we know what would happen. Everyone would be acting like uncontrollable speed demons.

This pandemic is unusual but the phone of mandating masks is that people aren't listening and it's causing an escalation of the pandemic



I dont necessarily agree with the speed limit analogy particularly on highways. And if you think that is in the name of public safety that's laughable. It's in the name of criminalizing otherwise law abiding citizens and generating revenue to justify over-inflated police budgets.

I am not a fan of the whole "government overreaches here so it can overreach there argument" Government is far more likely to be the cause of than the solution to problems
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
racquet
racquet
Joined: Dec 31, 2014
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June 30th, 2020 at 6:17:00 AM permalink
Quote: Gabes22

I dont necessarily agree with the speed limit analogy particularly on highways. And if you think that is in the name of public safety that's laughable. It's in the name of criminalizing otherwise law abiding citizens and generating revenue to justify over-inflated police budgets.



Revenue from speeding tickets goes to fund the salaries, pensions and benefits of all of government, not only "over-inflated police budgets."

A significant portion of police budgets goes to salaries, and a large part of that goes to overtime. Overtime is caused by too FEW police, which is by design, so that police can earn inflated salaries. Every time you see a police officer at a construction site, parked in a police car, or directing traffic at an otherwise unimportant public event - that's overtime. A police "detail" in front of the convention center or at a sporting event? Overtime.

The most highly paid employee in the City of Boston in 2019? A police officer who made more than $300,000. Overtime.

MORE police - a greater number of officers - would actually REDUCE the need to fund the police, because it would reduce... overtime.
billryan
billryan
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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June 30th, 2020 at 7:33:52 AM permalink
Quote: racquet

Revenue from speeding tickets goes to fund the salaries, pensions and benefits of all of government, not only "over-inflated police budgets."

A significant portion of police budgets goes to salaries, and a large part of that goes to overtime. Overtime is caused by too FEW police, which is by design, so that police can earn inflated salaries. Every time you see a police officer at a construction site, parked in a police car, or directing traffic at an otherwise unimportant public event - that's overtime. A police "detail" in front of the convention center or at a sporting event? Overtime.

The most highly paid employee in the City of Boston in 2019? A police officer who made more than $300,000. Overtime.

MORE police - a greater number of officers - would actually REDUCE the need to fund the police, because it would reduce... overtime.



More police means more pension payouts, more benefits and probably even more cops to handle the paperwork that more police would generate. Localities have to decide if it is better to assume another couple of million dollars in future expenses with each officer hired or to pay OT to an existing officer.
What needs to be done is moving more cops out of offices and stations and into the streets and replace a cop making $75,000 with a civilian making half that when you factor in benefits. Do we need a cop sitting in his car watching a construction zone when an empty car with a camera will accomplish 99% of his job for the day? Do we need cops sitting at the front desk of a precinct when a civilian can do the job for half the money?
On Long Island, school crossing guards make $12 an hour so why do they have police officers making $100,000 working at crossing guards at some churches.
When Suffolk County Executive Steve Levy decided he could drive himself around and attempted to re-assign the two veteran Detectives who were to be his drivers, the police union went to court to keep the assignments.
It is not that we have too many cops, it's that we have too many cops routinely doing jobs that civilians could be doing for half the price.
It shouldn't be defund the police, it should be re-allocate the police. We need to re-examine police contracts such as the deal the union made with the town of Malverne that gave it's officers 50 paid holidays a year. Perhaps re-examine the whole pension system. Officers in NYC used to be eligible for full retirement after 20 years. Now,I believe, it is 22 years. Is it really too much to ask a person hired at 25 to work until 50? A superior officer in NYPD is assigned a SGT. to drive him around. Having a regular patrolman drive him would be a savings of $15,000 plus would make another Sgt available to supervise officers.
TDVegas
TDVegas
Joined: Oct 30, 2018
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June 30th, 2020 at 9:09:19 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Why are people so adamant about fighting the wearing of masks?


Well, IMO, they are uncomfortable. In Vegas with 100+ temps...they are hot and they pull and also irritate the back of my ears. Glasses get fogged up. Voices get muffled to the point it can be difficult to have a conversation without pulling it down to articulate clearly. Iíve tried 3 different masks and they all tend to drop off my nose (small, Irish nose ;-)...There is also a pretty in depth CDC study that does not really show quantifiable benefit to wearing masks.

Nevertheless, I wear one because I abide by rules and guidelines. No Karenís or Kens in this household. Rules are rules.

Now, as far as wearing them when outside....if we are going to get it while outside, walking around without a mask, then we might as well ALL get it because I can list 100ís if not 1,000ís of opportunities to get this virus while still attempting to mask up.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
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June 30th, 2020 at 10:04:52 AM permalink
I don't wear a mask outdoors because it's very unlikely I'd be close enough to anyone outdoors. I will put one on when walking from my car to a store and always where one inside.

If I found myself in an outdoor setting with many people I'd wear one but that hasn't happened yet.
tringlomane
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
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June 30th, 2020 at 10:11:10 AM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Well, IMO, they are uncomfortable. In Vegas with 100+ temps...they are hot and they pull and also irritate the back of my ears. Glasses get fogged up. Voices get muffled to the point it can be difficult to have a conversation without pulling it down to articulate clearly. Iíve tried 3 different masks and they all tend to drop off my nose (small, Irish nose ;-)...There is also a pretty in depth CDC study that does not really show quantifiable benefit to wearing masks.

Nevertheless, I wear one because I abide by rules and guidelines. No Karenís or Kens in this household. Rules are rules.

Now, as far as wearing them when outside....if we are going to get it while outside, walking around without a mask, then we might as well ALL get it because I can list 100ís if not 1,000ís of opportunities to get this virus while still attempting to mask up.



If you make an effort to stay 6' apart outside, you don't have to wear it outside.

And link to CDC claim? This is the opposite of what they have said for awhile now.
TDVegas
TDVegas
Joined: Oct 30, 2018
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June 30th, 2020 at 10:39:50 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

If you make an effort to stay 6' apart outside, you don't have to wear it outside.

And link to CDC claim? This is the opposite of what they have said for awhile now.



This looks to be a fairly exhaustive study. Iím not talking about people talking out of their asses....but there does seem to be some credible studies that donít promote the idea that masks are effective. They also cite that wearing masks may cause other issues such as people not washing their hands as much, touching or readjusting their mask and other issues related to wearing a mask that might contribute to ďineffectivenessĒ.

The reality is there is no concrete evidence to support a blanket statement that masks work for a pandemic such as this. We may know at some point....but that will be further down the line.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
Joined: May 19, 2016
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June 30th, 2020 at 2:02:11 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

This looks to be a fairly exhaustive study. ... The reality is there is no concrete evidence to support a blanket statement that masks work for a pandemic such as this. We may know at some point....but that will be further down the line.



Yes, your CDC article at one point suggests hand washing and masks have minimal effect. One might ask, what "minimal" effect? The article appears to focus on "laboratory confirmed influenza transmission," but not where a pandemic occurs:

Quote:

We did not find evidence that surgical-type face masks are effective in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza transmission, either when worn by infected persons (source control) or by persons in the general community to reduce their susceptibility. However, as with hand hygiene, face masks might be able to reduce the transmission of other infections and therefore have value in an influenza pandemic when healthcare resources are stretched.



Fighting a pandemic in the "real" world is perhaps different. Analyzing data on government implementation of pandemic countermeasures across 6 countries (including USA), this study from the journal Nature suggests in a pandemic masks (along with other measures) had a significant effect, saving peoples' lives, including avoiding a 14x increase in US cases:

Quote:

... we estimate that there would be roughly 465 × the observed number of confirmed cases in China, 17 × in Italy, and 14 × in the US by the end of our sample if large-scale anti-contagion policies had not been deployed. Consistent with process-based simulations of COVID-19 infections, our analysis of existing policies indicates that seemingly small delays in policy deployment likely produced dramatically different health outcomes.



I think America is in for a bad case of "dramatically different health outcomes." I doubt an unhealthy America -- crippled by C-virus -- will restore a vibrant, healthy economy for months (or years). All because a mistrustful public has decided to behave much like rural communities struck by Ebola.

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