heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
• Posts: 1031
September 14th, 2019 at 1:47:26 PM permalink
Randomness—The observed unpredictability and absence of pattern in a set of elements or events that have definite probabilities of occurrence
gamerfreak

Joined: Dec 28, 2014
• Posts: 3058
Thanks for this post from:
September 14th, 2019 at 1:54:04 PM permalink
7craps
Joined: Jan 23, 2010
• Posts: 1977
Thanks for this post from:
September 14th, 2019 at 3:12:11 PM permalink
https://www.guusbosman.nl/2011/07/15/court-ruling-strictly-random

Governments and lawyers should 'never decide' what is 'random'
unless they agree 100% from experts in the field (never will happen)

6 fair coin flips
which is random?
HHHHHH
THTHTH
HTTHTH

shuffle 6 cards from 1 to 6 inclusive
which is random?
123456
351624
321456
huh?
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
• Posts: 1031
September 14th, 2019 at 3:18:23 PM permalink
Quote: 7craps

https://www.guusbosman.nl/2011/07/15/court-ruling-strictly-random

Governments and lawyers should 'never decide' what is 'random'
unless they agree 100% from experts in the field (never will happen)

6 fair coin flips
which is random?
HHHHHH
THTHTH
HTTHTH

shuffle 6 cards from 1 to 6 inclusive
which is random?
123456
351624
321456

huh?

would you consider an unshuffled deck directly out of the box to be random in that case? i would
7craps
Joined: Jan 23, 2010
• Posts: 1977
September 14th, 2019 at 3:26:27 PM permalink
I lived thru the below BuLLLSHTT from the US Government

Understanding Probability
Henk Tijms

That something is wild or complicated does not automatically mean that it is also random.

The task of mixing objects together (lotto balls, for example) through physical
means, such that we can say that the result is a random mix, is even more
difficult than making a good random-number generator.
A useful illustration
of the difficulties involved in this undertaking can be seen in the example of
the drafting of soldiers into the U.S. Armed Forces during the period of the
Vietnam War.
In 1970, widely varying drafting programs that had been run by
individual states were scrapped in favor of a national lottery. The framework of
the lottery was built on a plan to use birthdays as a means of choosing the young
men to be drafted. Preparations for the drawing were made as follows. First,
the 31 days of January were recorded on pieces of paper that were placed into
capsules, and these, in turn, were placed into a large receptacle. After that, the 29
days of February (including February 29) were recorded, placed into capsules
and added to the receptacle. At this point, the January and February capsules
were mixed. Next, the 31 days of March were recorded, encapsulated and mixed
through the January/February mixture, and the days of all the other months were
treated similarly. When it was time for the drawing, the first capsule to be drawn
was assigned the number 1, the second capsule drawn was assigned a number
2, and so on until all capsules had been drawn and assigned a number between
1 and 366. The men whose birth dates were contained in capsules receiving
low-end numbers were called up first.
Doubts about the integrity of the lottery
were raised immediately following the drawing. Statistical tests demonstrated,
indeed, that the lottery was far from random (see also Section 3.5).
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
7craps
Joined: Jan 23, 2010
• Posts: 1977
September 14th, 2019 at 3:29:34 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

would you consider an unshuffled deck directly out of the box to be random in that case? i would

I would not consider it a 'random shuffle' as most decks of playing cards come setup in a predetermined order.

I have NEVER seen or heard of a shuffled deck ending up in the exact order as it came out of the box. (without using a false shuffle, even I can do that)
I have seen computer shuffles get real close.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
• Posts: 3527
September 14th, 2019 at 3:41:41 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Quote: 7craps

https://www.guusbosman.nl/2011/07/15/court-ruling-strictly-random

Governments and lawyers should 'never decide' what is 'random'
unless they agree 100% from experts in the field (never will happen)

6 fair coin flips
which is random?
HHHHHH
THTHTH
HTTHTH

shuffle 6 cards from 1 to 6 inclusive
which is random?
123456
351624
321456

huh?

would you consider an unshuffled deck directly out of the box to be random in that case? i would

You don't understand what random is then.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
• Posts: 1031
September 14th, 2019 at 5:50:25 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Quote: heatmap

Quote: 7craps

https://www.guusbosman.nl/2011/07/15/court-ruling-strictly-random

Governments and lawyers should 'never decide' what is 'random'
unless they agree 100% from experts in the field (never will happen)

6 fair coin flips
which is random?
HHHHHH
THTHTH
HTTHTH

shuffle 6 cards from 1 to 6 inclusive
which is random?
123456
351624
321456

huh?

would you consider an unshuffled deck directly out of the box to be random in that case? i would

You don't understand what random is then.

ZCore13

... enlighten us what you understand random to be then...
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
• Posts: 6097
Thanks for this post from:
September 14th, 2019 at 6:33:45 PM permalink
I am a skeptic. I don't believe anything random exists and I have developed many slot machines.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
gamerfreak

Joined: Dec 28, 2014
• Posts: 3058
September 14th, 2019 at 6:59:59 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I am a skeptic. I don't believe anything random exists and I have developed many slot machines.

100% agree.

I’ve explained here a few times in detail how it’s only possible for computers to achieve pseudo-randomness.

That said, well designed RNG’s achieve high enough entropy for practical purposes.