Invest in my mortgage debt
The terms:
* You can invest for any amount, at least $5000.
* If you buy an entire mortgage, you can be the first lien-holder (first position), otherwise you'll be a lien-holder, but not first position.
* One mortgage is $327k and I'll pay 4.625% on any loan amount $5000 or more.
* The other mortgage is $207k and I'll pay 3.5% on any loan amount $5000 or more. (Of interest to lenders only if I sell out the higher-interest loan, of course.)
* 30-year term for large amounts, shorter term negotiable for smaller amounts
* No prepayment penalty, no up-front fees. I'll pay lender's title insurance if someone buys an entire existing loan.
* I'll make my credit report and tax returns available to interested investors. To avoid people who just want to see my credit report and have no real interest in investing, either the Wizard must vouch for you, or you put up $1000 deposit first, refundable only if my credit report doesn't actually show what I say it does (no bankruptcies, no liens, no late payments, large credit-to-debt ratio).
[Edited terms 8/31/19 6:30am CT]
What is the appraised value of the property relative to the mortgagee amount? Will you be paying PMI if the mortgage is more than 80% of the appraised value?
Quote: MichaelBluejayOn a lark, I'm posting to see if anyone wants to invest in any of my mortgage debt. I won't be surprised if there are no takers, but I figure it couldn't hurt to ask.
The terms:
* You can invest for any amount, at least $1000.
* If you buy an entire mortgage, you can be the first lien-holder (first position), so the loan will be collateralized.
* One mortgage is $327k and I'll pay 4.625%.
* The other mortgage is $207k and I'll pay 3.5%.
* 30-year term for large amounts, shorter term negotiable for smaller amounts
* No prepayment penalty, no up-front fees.
* I'll make my credit report available to interested investors. To avoid people who just want to see my credit report and have no real interest in investing, either the Wizard must vouch for you, or you put up $1000 deposit first, refundable only if my credit report doesn't actually show what I say it does (no bankruptcies, no liens, no late payments, large credit-to-debt ratio).
Interesting! So I am assuming you owe $327k on one mortgage, and $207k on a second one. I assume this is two separate mortgages on two separate properties? And you are paying in excess of 4.625% on the first and in excess of 3.5% on the second? And would be unable to refinance for lower in a traditional way?
How do you plan on handling the tax consequence...? I assume you will still deduct your interest payments, and the new mortgage holder will have to declare the interest you pay him?
With present dismally low (or superbly low?) interest rates, 30 years at 4.625% sounds like a very reasonable deal. Your proposal, to me, is what they call a "callable bond", in that you have given yourself the option of prepaying it without penalty, so to the guy loaning you the money, the deal can end on your discretion by paying it off at any time.
Will you disclose what property the mortgage is held on? Recent appraisal?
Because they'd charge a higher interest rate (and big up-front fees).Quote: DRichCan I ask why you aren't using a traditional mortgage loan company?
10/18 appraisal on the $327k property was $440k. 5/15 appraisal on the $207k property was $300,000.Quote: DRichWhat is the appraised value of the property relative to the mortgagee amount?
LTV is <80%.Quote: DRichWill you be paying PMI if the mortgage is more than 80% of the appraised value?
Yes, yes, yes, and yes.Quote: SOOPOOSo I am assuming you owe $327k on one mortgage, and $207k on a second one.
I assume this is two separate mortgages on two separate properties?
And you are paying in excess of 4.625% on the first and in excess of 3.5% on the second?
And would be unable to refinance for lower in a traditional way?
Yes and yes.Quote: SOOPOOHow do you plan on handling the tax consequence...? I assume you will still deduct your interest payments, and the new mortgage holder will have to declare the interest you pay him?
I think so. The only catch is that most people here don't know me and might understandably be wary about making a private loan.Quote: SOOPOOWith present dismally low (or superbly low?) interest rates, 30 years at 4.625% sounds like a very reasonable deal.
Sure, I'll PM you.Quote: SOOPOOWill you disclose what property the mortgage is held on? Recent appraisal?
I see you still have this mortgage and are paying that rate. What are you doing! You should refinance!Quote: MichaelBluejayOne mortgage is $327k and I'll pay 4.625%.
Quote: odiousgambitI see you still have this mortgage and are paying that rate. What are you doing! You should refinance!
I thought that too. Aren't 30 year rates lower than that now? Unless fees are much higher than I thought and you plan on paying it off quickly, it seems like a traditional refinancing is a no brainier?
These houses are both rental properties, and interest rates for those are typically 0.5 to 1.0 points higher than an owner-occupied mortgage. So, the best I could do in the traditional-finance route on the $327k loan is 4.5% plus upfront fees. Here on WoV, I'm offering 4.625% and no fees, which seems reasonable and decent for both sides.Quote: SOOPOOI thought that too. Aren't 30 year rates lower than that now? Unless fees are much higher than I thought and you plan on paying it off quickly, it seems like a traditional refinancing is a no brainier?
However, if there are no takers here, then I will for sure go the traditional route on the $327k loan. On the $207k loan, there are no savings to be had by going the traditional route.
ZCore13
I was a fan of LC early on, since 2011, and I got the Wizard and others into it. But interest rates have plummeted there in the last year and now it's no longer attractive to me. I was able to manage 9%, while the 90th percentile is 5.25%, so I think I did pretty good. :) On the borrowing side, they don't do mortgages, so that won't work for me.Quote: Zcore13Similar idea to the crowd funding loan website called LendingClub.com. I've been a borrower and lender on it. It could be the future of lending.
Yes, I'm offering to pay interest to anyone who wants to loan money to me. I will use that money to pay down my existing debt. If someone invests in an entire existing loan, s/he can be the first lienholder.Quote: GWAEI am confused what is going on here. You are getting people to loan you money? Are you taking this money and paying down the debt or are you using it for something else? If the latter we would be a second lien holder.
On a completely separate note, I'm miffed that nobody has commented in the Easy Vegas thread about the new Easy Vegas theme song.
Tread carefully here. To do this in this kind of forum you probably need to restrict this kind of pitch to accredited investors only. I am on a mailing list for this kind of deal and you must prove all kinds of things as to income and worth.
I am not certain, but I am certain you should be careful.
Pool the two properties, offer ten shares at 50,000 each and offer 4.5%.
Thank you, I appreciate the warning. I can't find any rule that investors in private mortgage debt must be accredited. I did find lots of articles about how to invest in private mortgages, and none of them mentioned an accredited investor requirement. If anyone has more info, I'm all ears. I always aim to play by the book.Quote: AZDuffmanWARNING Tread carefully here. To do this in this kind of forum you probably need to restrict this kind of pitch to accredited investors only. I am on a mailing list for this kind of deal and you must prove all kinds of things as to income and worth. I am not certain, but I am certain you should be careful.
Well, first, I don't know that I'm gonna attract $500k in investments. Second, 4.5% is what I'm already paying on the smaller note, so there's no advantage to me to sell that debt at that rate.Quote: billryanPool the two properties, offer ten shares at 50,000 each and offer 4.5%.
Quote: MichaelBluejayThank you, I appreciate the warning. I can't find any rule that investors in private mortgage debt must be accredited. I did find lots of articles about how to invest in private mortgages, and none of them mentioned an accredited investor requirement. If anyone has more info, I'm all ears. I always aim to play by the book.Quote: AZDuffmanWARNING Tread carefully here. To do this in this kind of forum you probably need to restrict this kind of pitch to accredited investors only. I am on a mailing list for this kind of deal and you must prove all kinds of things as to income and worth. I am not certain, but I am certain you should be careful.
You need to remember your issue is also soliciting and accepting funds. Google "invest in trust deeds" and check it out a bit. I doubt they would make a federal case out of what we have so far, but should someone lose money and sue, that would open up issues.
I do not have a ton more info, sorry there.
You could just consider hard money as well.
I Googled but still couldn't find any contraindications. The only way someone loses money is if I don't repay the loan, which I'm not expecting to happen. And if I *don't* pay the loan, it's because I went broke somehow, and if so, then getting sued will be the least of my problems.Quote: AZDuffmanGoogle "invest in trust deeds" and check it out a bit. I doubt they would make a federal case out of what we have so far, but should someone lose money and sue, that would open up issues.
Yes to both, if someone buys an entire loan so that they become the first lien holder. Updated answer: I'll pay for lender's title insurance if someone buys an entire existing loan. I'll pay for and record a deed of trust for all lenders, even if they don't buy an entire existing loan.Quote: ParadigmAre you paying for the title insurance policy and recording the Trust Deed for each of the new "mortgage loans"?
Quote: MichaelBluejayI Googled but still couldn't find any contraindications. The only way someone loses money is if I don't repay the loan, which is exceptionally unlikely. And if I *don't* pay the loan, it's because I went broke somehow, and if so, then I won't be worried about being sued because I won't have any assets to seize. Also, if someone buys an entire loan, they'll have the house as security.
F
Yes to both, if someone buys an entire loan so that they become the first lien holder.
Google it and look at the outfits selling debt. Check what they require. I looked at buying a few years back and there were serious requirements. Not sure if it rose to accredited level but near so.
FWIW everyone says they will pay. Do you have a professional appraisal on a 1004? If not you should before you state value of a home when soliciting on a public forum.
I'll come right out and say what I'm thinking; this smacks of someone who wants money for gambling debts or to finance some new system.
This post is a con and should be taken down by some moderator right away.
Like I said, I didn't find anything. Since you claim you've seen this stuff, feel free to share link(s) to it.Quote: AZDuffmanGoogle it...
Ugh. I said it was unlikely that I wouldn't repay the loan IN THE CONTEXT OF YOUR WARNING ME THAT I MIGHT GET SUED IF I DON'T, *NOT* in the context of my trying to convince potential borrowers that I'm going to repay.Quote: AZDuffmanFWIW everyone says they will pay.
Earlier when I relayed figures from appraisals, those were indeed real, professional appraisals, not made-up fantasy appraisals.Quote: AZDuffmanDo you have a professional appraisal on a 1004? If not you should before you state value of a home when soliciting on a public forum.
As I stated, I'm soliciting here because if it works, it's at a lower interest rate than I can get from a bank. A lifetime in finance didn't teach you that trying to get a better deal is normal consumer behavior?Quote: LovecompsWell I'm going to go out on a limb and, as a person who has spent a lifetime in finance, say that if there was anything legitimate about this then our poster would be doing it in the real world with real institutions...
How many people with gambling debts do you know who have an 800 credit score? And BTW, if anyone buys an entire loan, then it'll be handled by a title company, with all the protections they afford.Quote: LovecompsI'll come right out and say what I'm thinking; this smacks of someone who wants money for gambling debts...
Hey buddy, before you slander, you might want to spend five minutes researching. Google me or ask around, including the Wizard. And see my $30,000 Betting System Challenge (published for over a solid decade) and then try to tell the world again with a straight face that I'm trying to finance some new system.Quote: Lovecomps...or to finance some new system. This post is a con and should be taken down by some moderator right away.
Quote: MichaelBluejayLike I said, I didn't find anything. Since you claim you've seen this stuff, feel free to share link(s) to it.
Ugh. I said it was exceptionally unlikely that I wouldn't repay the loan IN THE CONTEXT OF YOUR WARNING ME THAT I MIGHT GET SUED IF I DON'T, *NOT* in the context of my trying to convince potential borrowers that I'm going to repay.
Earlier when I relayed figures from appraisals, those were indeed real, professional appraisals, not made-up fantasy appraisals.
My suggestion is check with an attorney. Said all I can say at my level.
can I ask what your website was in per month on average? Would you be willing to put that up as additional collateral?Quote: MichaelBluejay
Quote: LovecompsWell I'm going to go out on a limb and, as a person who has spent a lifetime in finance, say that if there was anything legitimate about this then our poster would be doing it in the real world with real institutions and people and not turning to a gambling forum to seek capital.
I'll come right out and say what I'm thinking; this smacks of someone who wants money for gambling debts or to finance some new system.
This post is a con and should be taken down by some moderator right away.
I raised the question among the mods, because it is a solicitation. The upshot is the thread can remain as long as it stays within forum rules.
I'm looking for a.couple of fifth wheels if anyone is interested in a buy and lease deal.
Dental tourism is huge in Europe, but still in its infancy here.
There were some vague references above to accredited investors and limitations on numbers of investors, these don't apply to this sort of thing. He's not selling shares in a corporation.
People do this sort of thing all the time, seek private buyers for their trust deeds, just that sometimes this is done through a mortgage broker. Also typically the entire note is sold not a portion. Mortgage brokers and small time investors buy and sell this sort of paper all the time, but the ones I know buy nonperforming ones at a hefty discount that they believe they may get back into good status - here he's essentially asking you to lend him money at no discount rate, however I assume his notes are performing.
But the way he describes the deal, seems like you may or may not end up even getting collateralized. Am I wrong? Is he saying that you get collateralized only if you take out an entire TD?
Not sure how he's going to handle it if multiple parties seek to lend him money and the total doesn't take out the trust deed(s) entirely, will he record multiple trust deeds behind the existing ones? Or is he saying that unless you buy out the entire TD you will not be collateralized at all, in which case, what does any of this have to do with his mortgages? I mean - if he is just plain using the money ends up not paying off the existing TDs and will not record new ones then he's basically just asking you to lend him money without regards to the mortgages or property.
He mentioned something about how if you buy the entire mortgage you will end up in the first lien holder position...well, yes, if that's what he agrees to AND both his 1st and 2nd are paid off, otherwise you end up behind whatever TDs remain that have not been fully paid off and reconveyed.
He may have valid reasons for not refinancing or seeking conventional lenders, other than what he mentions such as the interest rate for non-owner occupied homes, such as that he is self employed and his tax returns don't reflect all his income and would therefore have a hard time qualifying for a conventional loan.
Quote: MDawg
He may have valid reasons for not refinancing or seeking conventional lenders, other than what he mentions such as the interest rate for non-owner occupied homes, such as that he is self employed and his tax returns don't reflect all his income and would therefore have a hard time qualifying for a conventional loan.
A valid reason...please :-). The reason is that he has to try to scam people on line since he can't get real people to buy into it.
By the way, an 800+ credit score could do this at an institution. But, if anyone is interested, please call me first. I got an email offer earlier from a big time guy in Nigeria who needs funds to help him get gold out of the country. He said he'll be willing to share it with me if I help him by sending him money to bribe certain government officials. If you want to go in halvies to send him the up-front money, please PM me..money orders only though :-)
Ugh. If I had a hard time qualifying for conventional loans, how do you think I got two loans totaling more than half a million dollars recently? No, I have no other motivation other than getting a better interest rate.Quote: MDawgHe may have valid reasons for not refinancing or seeking conventional lenders, other than what he mentions...such as that he is self employed and his tax returns don't reflect all his income and would therefore have a hard time qualifying for a conventional loan.
If someone doesn't buy a whole existing loan, I will still use the proceeds to pay down the existing loan, but there will be no collateral. (Update: I'll pay for and record a deed of trust for all borrowers even if they don't buy an entire existing loan. I upped the minimum loan amount to $5000 in order to make that worth my time.] If my reputation and perfect credit report isn't enough to make someone comfortable making a loan to me, they don't have to. I'm not begging here. Re-read my first post where I said I doubted there would even be any takers anyway.
AT A HIGHER INTEREST RATE AND FOR MORE FEES! DUH!Quote: LovecompsBy the way, an 800+ credit score could do this at an institution.
Mods, is this kind of insult actually kosher here now? He's not saying I *might* be a scammer, he's saying I *am* a scammer.Quote: LovecompsThe reason is that he has to try to scam people on line since he can't get real people to buy into it....But, if anyone is interested, please call me first. I got an email offer earlier from a big time guy in Nigeria who needs funds to help him get gold out of the country. He said he'll be willing to share it with me if I help him by sending him money to bribe certain government officials. If you want to go in halvies to send him the up-front money, please PM me..money orders only though :-)
Lovecomps, put your money where your mouth is. I'll bet you hard cash that I have no problem refinancing at a bank if I go that route, or that the private lenders get paid by me if we go that route. We'll put the money in escrow with the Wizard or a licensed attorney in good standing. How's $10,000? Put up or shut up.
Signed, your friend,
Ahmed Muhommed Abdul Al-Barkawi
Quote: MichaelBluejayRS blocked. I also request mod action on this insult also.
How did I insult you? It’s a joke. Relax.
The man is an entrepreneur, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
https://www.housingwire.com/articles/50017-freddie-mac-mortgage-rates-tick-up-slightly-to-358
Just Saying.
https://www.bankofamerica.com/mortgage/mortgage-rates/
Just Saying
Quote: MichaelBluejay(snip)
...
Mods, is this kind of insult actually kosher here now? He's not saying I *might* be a scammer, he's saying I *am* a scammer.
Lovecomps, put your money where your mouth is. I'll bet you hard cash that I have no problem refinancing at a bank if I go that route, or that the private lenders get paid by me if we go that route. We'll put the money in escrow with the Wizard or a licensed attorney in good standing. How's $10,000? Put up or shut up.
No, not particularly kosher. But you started it with a general solicitation for money, so I'm not surprised to see it, either. You haven't been very active in recent years, so newer people don't know you or trust you like you perhaps think they should.
If I were to suspend the 2 you've complained about, I would also suspend you for the solicitation thread, since all 3 of you are technically rule-breaking.
I will, however, issue a general warning. Do not troll this thread with accusations of a member scamming or implied comparisons to Nigerian princes or other personal aspersions.
But yeah, saw this coming when you started the thread yesterday. I would suggest you consider the message received, and any takers will likely contact you by PM. Otherwise, it would be best to let the thread die.
I've lost count of how many times people insult me on WoV and no action is taken.
Quote: mcallister3200If it’s so bad just go away.
You just made the list!
As I mentioned above, typically these guys who go around investing in TDs buy the entire TD and note at a discount and then resell, or collect payments on the note from parties they think will get back into performing status. In this situation there is no discount, and, unless you take out every single TD already recorded you are not going to end up in first position. The more people who take him up on this the more TDs there are going to be ahead of you. Plus the return is relatively low.
BTW someone above mentioned that the return here is low versus the stock market. I hear that, I have made money hand over fist in the stock market over the years. But let's not forget that it is not always that way nothing is guaranteed the stock market has gone down some years too, so if your stock market game is to buy and mold, long positions only, I believe in it big time over the long term but over the short it is not always a positive return. And nothing in the stock market is collateralized per se.
Getting back to these types of property deals: I mean I was recently offered a deal to pay off about 250K of debt on a property appraised at 450K and then get the entire property quit claimed to me with a new TD and note in my favor for 250K recorded on the property, but where there is an agreement to share 50% of the net proceeds above the 250K basis with an outside party where the agreement specifies that the property may not be sold until the outside party dies, and that outside party is not liable for any payments on the debt. There is always some catch no one is giving away free or easy money.
Quote: MichaelBluejayWhere is the rule against solicitation? That word doesn't even appear in the rules.
I've lost count of how many times people insult me on WoV and no action is taken.
Rule 3: No free advertising, exception for prior permission. Just my opinion, but I think that this would fall under the spirit of that rule. That said, Wizard would almost undoubtedly have given you permission to post this thread had you asked.
Well, I do think it's a bit of a stretch to call this "advertising". This is not business related, it's for a personal loan, and "advertising" isn't a word generally associated with personal transactions. It's certainly a solicitation, no argument there, but then again I don't read solicitation as being banned explicitly. In any event, I won't even solicit again without prior permission.Quote: Mission146Rule 3: No free advertising, exception for prior permission. Just my opinion, but I think that this would fall under the spirit of that rule. That said, Wizard would almost undoubtedly have given you permission to post this thread had you asked.
For the record, I did ask for, and received, permission to start The Easy Vegas thread, which can be seen as advertising for Easy Vegas. (And it's not a one-way street: I've linked to WoO from dozens of my pages, some for almost 20 years now.)
Anyway, at best my alleged violation of rule #3 is a gray area. But there's absolutely no gray area about the insults I've received here, about which, typically, no action is taken.
Just a few opinion from a fellow member*:Quote: MichaelBluejayRS blocked. I also request mod action on this insult also.
MBJ's posts came close to solicitation
LC's posts came close to personal insult
RS's post came close to wry humor**
Let not call for suspensions over such trivia. Let's call it honors even?
If you guys want to block each-other, feel free.
*Not an official line
**See how I try to use your spelling?
Blue be the new green.
Off to check whether either of you guys has posted about concealed carryQuote: billryanWhile I'm not a mod, I fully intend to slap RS's wrist the next time I see him.
$:o)
Quote: billryanWhile I'm not a mod, I fully intend to slap RS's wrist the next time I see him. Perhaps Axel can give him a stern warning of a future tongue lashing.
That usually costs double just to watch. Call me slightly excited.
This thread is great! Thanks MBJ!
No. Calling someone a con-man and a scammer is an *actual*, *bona-fide* insult. No gray area, no question.Quote: OnceDearLC's posts came close to personal insult
Quote: MichaelBluejayNo. Calling someone a con-man and a scammer is an *actual*, *bona-fide* insult. No gray area, no question.
Come on Mods! If someone “feels” insulted they deserve protection and a safe space. We all need to be better people and understand the concerns and feelings of others different than ourselves.
Haven’t we learned anything?
I encourage other members who also support Mr Bluejay to Thank him for his concerns and show we are a safe space for him.
a bond fund might buy 300 corporate and municipal bonds - this risk of even a great many of them defaulting is very, very low - usually only a very small % default
you're talking about backing one person - the risk is much, much greater
for a deal to be a good one it should be 𝐰𝐢𝐧 𝐰𝐢𝐧
you're the only on assured of a win in this deal
and since current mortgage rates are quite a bit lower than what you're offering to pay - I think it is a fair assumption that you have some credit problems
https://www.bankrate.com/finance/mortgages/current-interest-rates.aspx
Please do me the favor of bothering to read the thread, where these items have already been addressed specifically and head-on. To repeat myself:Quote: lilredrooster...and since current mortgage rates are quite a bit lower than what you're offering to pay - I think it is a fair assumption that you have some credit problems
(1) The interest rates you posted are NOT for investment property, which carries a higher interest rate. If it were possible for me to get the rates you posted, of course I would go that route.
(2) As I stated earlier, repeatedly and repeatedly, if this route works for me then I get a better interest rate and avoid the huge fees charged by banks for refinancing.
(3) As I stated earlier, I'm willing to make my (perfect) credit report available to would-be lenders.
As for whether this is a good deal:
(1) Every single one of Motley Fool's top bond funds for 2019 offers a lower rate of return than I am.
(2) If someone buys the entire loan, s/he becomes a first-position lien holder. That lowers the risk. I admit the risk is higher for anyone not in the first position, but then again:
(3) In my very first post, I admitted that I wouldn't be surprised if there are no takers. I'm not begging and I'm not twisting anyone's arm. And so far nobody's expressed interest anyway, except SOOPOO who wanted to see appraisals on the properties and then went silent after I sent them.
WIZARD OF VEGAS
Informative travel guide about Las Vegas
What all of has to do with this, or any aspect of gaming, is beyond me. There are hundreds of other threads here that have nothing to do with gaming at all but "What did you eat today?", or "Casino chip of the day", are harmless and even amusing. This thread is neither and I believe that it's dangerous.
I've said my piece. Do with your money as you see fit.
