Are Casinos Evil?
How is what they do different from what a casino does? The vast majority of people in a casino have no idea they don't have a chance of hell of getting ahead and staying ahead on multiple visits. They're plied with food and booze and flashy lights and a carnival atmosphere and don't know that the dealers mostly hate they're guts and the suits thinks they're bloody fools. The players have no idea that if they did win on a regular basis, they'd be asked to leave eventually. Does it make the casino evil that they take your money, knowing you have no chance of getting the best of them, and you could go bankrupt as a result and the casino could care less?
If the information is available, but people are too lazy/dumb/disinclined to obtain and use it, that isn't the casino's fault.
Let's take the average Joe who goes to the casino for an evening's play at blackjack. He's a low-roller, so his average bet is $10. He plays for four hours, so let's say he plays one hand a minute, or 240 hands--$2400 in total bets. Let's also say he plays against six deck shoes, hit soft 17--about a 0.78% house advantage. Let's also say that he knows Basic Strategy pretty well, but he makes the occasional error, so he's really at about a 1% disadvantage. He figures, therefore, to lose about $24. For that, he gets the fun of playing, and a few free drinks to boot. I'd say he's getting good value for his money.
The same person who plays dollar slots, and puts that same amount of money in, will be paying more like $200 for his fun. The nickel slot player will get a lower percentage return, but he won't be betting near as much--$100 will probably last him all night, with money to spare.
The difference between the robbery and the casino is that the casino is very up front about what they're doing. They have the advantage, and they make no bones about it. If you somehow don't realize that, it's your fault, not theirs.
Quote: mkl654321
If the information is available, but people are too lazy/dumb/disinclined to obtain and use it, that isn't the casino's fault.
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Thats what every con-man says. If the sucker had only taken the time to find out the truth instead of trusting him, they wouldn't have gotten ripped off. Evil..
Quote: EvenBobThats what every con-man says. If the sucker had only taken the time to find out the truth instead of trusting him, they wouldn't have gotten ripped off. Evil..
I would also say that no one can be conned if they don't let themselves be conned. In any case, a con man relies on deception, and in most cases, outright lying. The casino doesn't lie about the games it offers. A roulette wheel has 38 slots--anyone can see that. A number pays 35 to 1--anyone can see that, too.
I realize that the whole point of your asking this question was to get agreement that the casinos are evil entities run by con men. I think that's not a fair assessment. I don't like many of their business practices, but for the most part, what they offer is what it appears to be.
Quote: mkl654321I would also say that no one can be conned if they don't let themselves be conned. .
Duh. Most people are conned willingly, they do nothing to stop it or make sure its legit. You should read the comments on history.com after the first half dozen episodes of Pawn Stars. People were screaming bloody murder because Rick wasn't telling the people what the item was really worth and offering them dirt cheap prices for it. Why was it his responsibility to wise them up? Same in the casino, why is it the casinos responsibility to tell the players the truth. Evil.
Quote: JerryLoganOf course casinos are evil. The only people who would deny that are those who try to justify losing and then are compelled to justify why they play too much.
I've been going to casinos for decades. They contribute nothing to society except the promise of something they know they can't deliver. Casino employee's have the same respect for their customers as did old time carnies. In fact, a modern casino is just an old time carnival thats in a permanent place. They offer games of chance, rides (in Vegas), flashing lights, food, entertainment. Evil evil evil..
I know it's still technically correct, but it's a bit like describing getting pissed on as a "golden shower". You're not fooling anyone.
Quote: EvenBobThe vast majority of people in a casino have no idea they don't have a chance of hell of getting ahead ...
Once before I really ever stepped into a casino, I believed it was full of people who didnt know the House had an edge. Now I no longer believe that. In fact I believe 99% of the people there know there is a House edge, and 99% of them use the phrase "the House always wins in the end". Most players gamble for entertainment, hoping for a lucky session, not to make money in the long run.
As far as the dark side of the business, most businesses in fact have some practices that they don't really want out in the sunshine. It's sometimes amusing to see them scrambling when caught at it, like the banks recently with the "robo-signing" scandal in mortgage foreclosures. How much do you want to bet that practice is older than the hills? You have to figure the Casinos have even less motivation to be squeaky clean in all their practices.
Quote: odiousgambitOnce before I really ever stepped into a casino, I believed it was full of people who didnt know the House had an edge. Now I no longer believe that. In fact I believe 99% of the people there know there is a House edge, and 99% of them use the phrase "the House always wins in the end".
Why if the anti-smoking campaigns are any indication, you could put a dire warning as big as one of casino signs in front of the building warning about the house edge and all the perils of gambling. And most people would just walk right in anyway.
I think this basic premise is wrong.Quote: EvenBobThe vast majority of people in a casino have no idea they don't have a chance of hell of getting ahead and staying ahead on multiple visits.
People know that the casino comes out ahead. But they also know that every day, there are a select few that beat the odds. They gamble to feed the dream.
Warnings are overplayed in our lives.
People who choose the immediate pleasures of nicotine versus the probability of deferred health consequences will do so irrespective of warnings.
Are casinos evil?
The DMV is evil, schools are evil, courts are evil... just about anything in our society has some evidence of evil that can be cited.
We often do not assess risks properly but instead respond to imaginary or minor risks.
Is a casino evil? If a casino brings some increase in alcoholism and spousal abuse we do not charge the casino for its treatment. If the rude arrogant clerks at the DMV precipitate some violence we do not charge the DMV with that social cost. If people routine get injured climbing some mountain we do not allocate the rescue and rehabilitation costs to the mountain. So when you come up with a sensible plan for accounting for social evils then and only then can casinos be properly evaluated.
Quote: EvenBobLets say you have a next door neighbor who really likes you and invites you to dinner a couple times a week and gives you good liquor to drink and you never have to reciprocate. While you're there eating, their 2 kids are at your house stealing your stuff. They never take enough to be noticable, but after awhile it really adds up. They might replace a nice diamond bracelet with a fake, or take some of the cash you have on the dresser. They steal some CC numbers and sell them. You get the idea. They're in cahoots with their parents, its a scam to act like your friend and ruin you financially. They are evil people.
How is what they do different from what a casino does? The vast majority of people in a casino have no idea they don't have a chance of hell of getting ahead and staying ahead on multiple visits. They're plied with food and booze and flashy lights and a carnival atmosphere and don't know that the dealers mostly hate they're guts and the suits thinks they're bloody fools. The players have no idea that if they did win on a regular basis, they'd be asked to leave eventually. Does it make the casino evil that they take your money, knowing you have no chance of getting the best of them, and you could go bankrupt as a result and the casino could care less?
What are you, like, the Unabomber or something?
Alcohol is evil on about the same scale. We know it does a LOT of social damage. But I like alcohol too... and someday something bad will happen to me because of alcohol, I'm sure of it. So what? People make choices, the best we can do as a society is protect people from OTHER people's bad choices, not their own.
Casino corporations are as greedy as every other corporation you can find. They try to maximize profit. That's the way capitalism works.
Your argument is arguing against capitalism, which is fine. But don't blame casinos when everyone is doing it. You honestly think people don't think the casino has the advantage?
I think slot machines should be more transparent, and give you the house edge like every other game. And I think eventually we will get to that point. Besides that, "evil" is simply the wrong word choice for what you are trying to say.
It's funny, people are both smarter than you think, and dumber than you think. They know the casino has an edge, yet they/we go anyway.
Quote: EvenBobI've been going to casinos for decades. They contribute nothing to society except the promise of something they know they can't deliver.
So either you're joking with a straight face, or you don't mind being a hypocrite in public.
As jokes go, the "shocked" scene in Casa Blanca was light years better. As to the latter, I find it interesting.
I know the restaurant has the edge, but I go anyway.
I know my dentist has the edge, but I go anyway.
I know the movie theater has the edge, but I go anyway.
I make money so I can use it. One of the places I use it is a casino.
As long as they do not lie/cheat, I am content if I lose.
Sometimes I win. That has never happened at a movie/restaurant/ etc...
I don't believe most people believe that on average if they put money in, they will get more money out, aka go into a casino to get free money. If you have some surveys to prove this otherwise I'll gladly look at them. If people believe they will lose and still play the games, then the casino isn't deceiving them anymore. Show me the conman that invites people over for dinner and tells them they are stealing from them while here. How many people are going to continue having dinner knowing that fact?
Actually, when I read the first paragraph of the initial post of this thread (quoted above), I thought it was going to be some discussion about our relationship with the government. Take a look at that paragraph again, overlooking the thread title as I did. See whether you don't think that EvenBob might start an anti-government or anti-tax or anti-welfare thread with that paragraph as easily as he did an anti-casino one.Quote: EvenBobLets say you have a next door neighbor who really likes you and invites you to dinner a couple times a week and gives you good liquor to drink and you never have to reciprocate. While you're there eating, their 2 kids are at your house stealing your stuff. They never take enough to be noticable, but after awhile it really adds up. They might replace a nice diamond bracelet with a fake, or take some of the cash you have on the dresser. They steal some CC numbers and sell them. You get the idea. They're in cahoots with their parents, its a scam to act like your friend and ruin you financially. They are evil people.
Quote: EvenBobLets say you have a next door neighbor who really likes you and invites you to dinner a couple times a week and gives you good liquor to drink and you never have to reciprocate. While you're there eating, their 2 kids are at your house stealing your stuff. They never take enough to be noticable, but after awhile it really adds up. They might replace a nice diamond bracelet with a fake, or take some of the cash you have on the dresser. They steal some CC numbers and sell them. You get the idea. They're in cahoots with their parents, its a scam to act like your friend and ruin you financially. They are evil people.
How is what they do different from what a casino does?
For starters, I've never been to a casino that sends people to break into my house to steal my jewelry.
The premise of the modern-day casino gaming industry (yes, it's "gaming" - wagering on games of chance came long before video games) is to provide entertainment for a variable cost, a cost which is sometimes negative (that is, you sometimes leave with more than you came with). That possibility of negative cost is a big part of the entertainment value. The premise of every other entertainment industry -- baseball, movies, bowling, you name it -- is to provide entertainment for a fixed cost. If you're not having fun when you go to a casino, don't go.
But you must be having fun when you go to a casino because you've admittedly been going for decades. That's why your analogy is so wrong-headed. Are you honestly saying that you'd go back to your neighbors house even once after you found out their kids stole your jewelry?
Quote: MathExtremistFor starters, I've never been to a casino that sends people to break into my house to steal my jewelry.
Are you sure? :)
Quote: MathExtremistThe premise of the modern-day casino gaming industry (yes, it's "gaming" - wagering on games of chance came long before video games)
Bah!
Yeah, if your son tells you he's going to the ball "game" tonight, and tomorrow you find out he sold all your wife's jewlery at the pawn shop to put money on a roulette "ball", feel free to not call it gambling, but gaming.
I'm just pointing out that I believe it's an intentional emphuemism that "gaming" companies use, but practically no average joe or jane outside the industry ever bothers to refer to this "gaming" as anything but gambling. If you tell someone you play poker, they'll most likely never say, "Oh, you're a gamer aren't you?"
Furthermore, when they legalized gambling in Nevada, that's what they called it. I'm almost positive it's an intentional marketing ploy (probably from the heyday of the gambling's connection to mobsters, booze, and prostitution.,)
Lastly, calling it gaming doesn't specifically tell you whether wagering is going on -- so, it's not nearly as precise as calling it, "the gambling industry".
Quote: FinsRuleI hate agreeing with MKL.... But I do completely.
Then why not try agreeing or disagreeing with the idea and not the person (me or anyone else)?
http://www.americangaming.org/Industry/factsheets/general_info_detail.cfv?id=9
The only reason "gaming" doesn't give enough context today is due to the rise of video games. That's obviously a very recent phenomenon, but it now means "gaming industry" is no longer sufficiently specific. It's even worse when you start talking about "online gaming", which (for me) involves Internet casinos or poker rooms, but to a far greater number involves World of Warcraft or FarmVille. 100 years ago if you said "gaming" everyone knew what you were talking about.
Quote: MathExtremistHere's some historical context:
http://www.americangaming.org/Industry/factsheets/general_info_detail.cfv?id=9
The only reason "gaming" doesn't give enough context today is due to the rise of video games. That's obviously a very recent phenomenon, but it now means "gaming industry" is no longer sufficiently specific. It's even worse when you start talking about "online gaming", which (for me) involves Internet casinos or poker rooms, but to a far greater number involves World of Warcraft or FarmVille. 100 years ago if you said "gaming" everyone knew what you were talking about.
They call it "gaming" now because after several hours in a smoky casino, most people smell pretty gamy.
Quote: MathExtremistThe only reason "gaming" doesn't give enough context today is due to the rise of video games. .
Hardly true. Well, before video games, people commonly referred to gambling instead of gaming. Take a look at Google News archives and look at when references to "gaming" really come into the fore occuring around 1950, and compare it to all the references to "gambling" back to the early 1900s. It does occur back earlier, but it's pretty sparse.
I have no problem with the historical context. But that's like saying everyone has been using the word matriculating much more often than enrolling. Maybe, but it's been ancient history for awhile now.
What is bad are the smaller casinos living of the locals. In NY, they are all indian/state owned. Lots of locals flushing their paychecks down the toilet (slots).
Quote: EvenBobMost people in this thread remind me of people I know. I have discussions with the ones that go to casinos and they all say they know they can't get ahead, but I know they don't believe it. They say stupid things like "I see people around me winning all the time", assuming the person is now ahead of the casino. They have no idea that the woman who just won $2000 on a slot had to put in $3000 over the last month to get it. Casino patrons remind me of cigarette smokers. They know the dangers of smoking, they even know people that have died of it. But they think it will never happen to them. I know at least 2 people who were lifetime smokers and were shocked when they got lung cancer. Casino people say they know the odds, but they don't think it applies to them, I'm convinced of it.
So just because a company makes a product that people can become addicted to makes them evil? Is Pepsi evil for making soda? Are all NY deli's evil for giving you sandwiches with like 3 lbs of meat on them?
Casinos are absolutely taking advantage of people wanting to risk some money in hopes of winning some. I simply don't see this as being evil. Many companies charge me more for a product than they need to. Some certainly may consider those companies evil as well. When you start saying most things are evil, the term loses something to me.
I haven't wanted to chime in on this ... too risky, too many hot headed APs, but hey, why not ... Kansas is still a fierce red state ... and the dust doesn't need-a-waterin' today ...Quote: soulhunt79So just because a company makes a product that people can become addicted to makes them evil? Is Pepsi evil for making soda? Are all NY deli's evil for giving you sandwiches with like 3 lbs of meat on them?
Casinos are absolutely taking advantage of people wanting to risk some money in hopes of winning some. I simply don't see this as being evil. Many companies charge me more for a product than they need to. Some certainly may consider those companies evil as well. When you start saying most things are evil, the term loses something to me.
My experience is that APs live by the mantra "Casinos are Evil." On some sites, if you utter any words to the contrary, you are shunned ... it is the expected demeanor and attitude every good person should have ... anyone who is in any way associated with gaming, other than being an AP, is complicit in this evil, and therefore is evil themselves ... anyone who knows how casinos make their money and does not believe they are evil is also part of the evil.
This "blanket of evil" is justification to attack casinos righteously, in the name of doing good by extracting money from the evil casinos. It is not enough to get a legal edge and make money by playing a skilled game, APs also proselytize their religion. And, like many cults, APs act venomously towards anyone who dares caution toward the boundary ...
Posting that "Casinos are Evil" is a way of furthering the social agenda of the AP world and has no basis in fact.
A good warning that a group is dangerous is hearing them say a malevolent "All" towards any group or organization. All casinos are evil. Casinos are run by people. Therefore, all people who work for casinos are evil. All Christians are evil. All republicans are evil. All bank presidents are evil. All Nazi's are evil. Give me a break ... APs are dangerous because of this all pervasive group think.
If you think the dealer in the poker room who talks about her struggles, just getting by, how happy she is for this job, her new boyfriend, makes cookies for the players, and is just doing a job, is evil, then you are living a sad, lonely, and dark life, full of arrogance and righteousness.
Ms. "Most people are good people" D.
This is another issue APs have ... they think the casinos care about them ... sure, if you're beating up on the casino, or if you're at a sweat shop, they'll be annoyed ... but most just don't care ... they are much more preoccupied with getting accurate ratings for comps, where considerably more money can be lost by getting it wrong ...Quote: EvenBobWould the casino like this if they knew? Hardly.
You think far too highly of yourself if you think casinos give a damn about you ... even if you are even, Bob ... frankly, my dear ...
Ms. D.
Quote: DorothyGale
You think far too highly of yourself if you think casinos give a damn about you .
And you are naive if you think they don't. Its on a person to person basis. For every 10 suits that could care less, you'll find one that does care. You'll find one thats a company man, one that you have to avoid. And thats all it takes. Just one.
Quote: rxwineBah!
Yeah, if your son tells you he's going to the ball "game" tonight, and tomorrow you find out he sold all your wife's jewlery at the pawn shop to put money on a roulette "ball", feel free to not call it gambling, but gaming.
I'm just pointing out that I believe it's an intentional emphuemism that "gaming" companies use, but practically no average joe or jane outside the industry ever bothers to refer to this "gaming" as anything but gambling. If you tell someone you play poker, they'll most likely never say, "Oh, you're a gamer aren't you?"
Furthermore, when they legalized gambling in Nevada, that's what they called it. I'm almost positive it's an intentional marketing ploy (probably from the heyday of the gambling's connection to mobsters, booze, and prostitution.,)
Lastly, calling it gaming doesn't specifically tell you whether wagering is going on -- so, it's not nearly as precise as calling it, "the gambling industry".
Oh, I don't know. To me, I'd call it "gambling" if I didn't have any idea of the odds, or if I felt it was an even bet. I'd call it "gaming" when I knew that the odds were against me, but I'm paying to play a game.
I know that's semantics, but it shows how the terms mean different things to different people. "Gaming" means to me that the fun is in the play. "It's not whether you win or lose, but did you have a good bet?"
Quote: EvenBobDoes it make the casino evil that they take your money, knowing you have no chance of getting the best of them, and you could go bankrupt as a result and the casino could care less?
The whole question is like an indictment of capitalist society. In what way does the answer matter? Is there a point to pondering it?
Let me ask you: Is going to a restaurant and paying for a really fine meal the culinary equivalent of prostitution... or would you rather just decide between the fish or the beef?
Quote: DorothyGale
All casinos are evil. Casinos are run by people. Therefore, all people who work for casinos are evil. All Christians are evil. All republicans are evil. All bank presidents are evil. All Nazi's are evil. Give me a break ...
...
Quote:APs are dangerous because of this all pervasive group think.
All of them, I presume? :)
Of all people, Harrah's is actively pushing the "gambling" terminology heavily now with their Horseshoe properties. They use "gambling" in place of "gaming" at every opportunity: "Home of the gambler," "Never gamble hungry," etc. I'm all for it.Quote: rxwineBah!
Yeah, if your son tells you he's going to the ball "game" tonight, and tomorrow you find out he sold all your wife's jewlery at the pawn shop to put money on a roulette "ball", feel free to not call it gambling, but gaming.
I'm just pointing out that I believe it's an intentional emphuemism that "gaming" companies use, but practically no average joe or jane outside the industry ever bothers to refer to this "gaming" as anything but gambling. If you tell someone you play poker, they'll most likely never say, "Oh, you're a gamer aren't you?"
Furthermore, when they legalized gambling in Nevada, that's what they called it. I'm almost positive it's an intentional marketing ploy (probably from the heyday of the gambling's connection to mobsters, booze, and prostitution.,)
Lastly, calling it gaming doesn't specifically tell you whether wagering is going on -- so, it's not nearly as precise as calling it, "the gambling industry".
Quote: DorothyGaleMy experience is that APs live by the mantra "Casinos are Evil." On some sites, if you utter any words to the contrary, you are shunned ... it is the expected demeanor and attitude every good person should have ... anyone who is in any way associated with gaming, other than being an AP, is complicit in this evil, and therefore is evil themselves ... anyone who knows how casinos make their money and does not believe they are evil is also part of the evil.
This "blanket of evil" is justification to attack casinos righteously, in the name of doing good by extracting money from the evil casinos.
Well color me complicit, I suppose, but I'm not part of the small yet vocal minority who believes casinos (or more broadly, wagering in general) is any form of evil. I only know a few APs (I'm not one of them), but the ones I know are probably at the upper-end of the intelligence scale and I have a hard time believing they think casinos are evil. On the other hand, some APs were bonus vultures, and how righteous is it to hustle a little old lady off an accumulator slot right before it's ready to hit?
For my part, I know exactly how the house makes its money, but I also know that being an advantage player isn't nearly the best way to extract money from a casino. I have a much, much higher EV than any advantage player, and probably much lower variance. :)
Quote: EvenBobThe vast majority of people in a casino have no idea they don't have a chance of hell of getting ahead and staying ahead on multiple visits. They're plied with food and booze and flashy lights and a carnival atmosphere and don't know that the dealers mostly hate they're guts and the suits thinks they're bloody fools. The players have no idea that if they did win on a regular basis, they'd be asked to leave eventually. Does it make the casino evil that they take your money, knowing you have no chance of getting the best of them, and you could go bankrupt as a result and the casino could care less?
I disagree with this statement. I think pretty much anyone who walks into a business realizes that the business wants your money. The casino is just another business. It offers flashy lights and table games to entertain you and make you have fun playing. Yes, it is addictive for some. So is alcohol, tobacco, sex, prescription drugs, actual drugs, and a number of other things. People with any sense of reason or experience understand that the odds are against you in the casino.
Quite honestly, the casino industry should be held responsible for plying people with alcohol and taking people for money. However, it does not have a responsibility for monitoring individual's financial health. That is up to the individual to get the help they need before they go broke.
For the vast majority of people, gambling is a harmless form of entertainment.
Quote: boymimbo
For the vast majority of people, gambling is a harmless form of entertainment.
Thats because they're either ignorant or in denial of whats really happening. Here's what most people do. In the first few visits they leave cash behind and spend the rest of their casino going lives trying to get it back. On some occasions they get lucky and win some, and they grin all the way home. The casino, other hand, never stops laughing out loud.
Quote: DorothyGaleThis "blanket of evil" is justification to attack casinos righteously, in the name of doing good by extracting money from the evil casinos. It is not enough to get a legal edge and make money by playing a skilled game, APs also proselytize their religion. And, like many cults, APs act venomously towards anyone who dares caution toward the boundary ...
Posting that "Casinos are Evil" is a way of furthering the social agenda of the AP world and has no basis in fact.
I think this is a gross overstatement, and an unjustified generalization.
Certainly, there are APs who establish an adversary relationship with the casinos. This is more often than not a result of the casinos establishing an adversary relationship with THEM. In any case, most APs fly well under the radar, and don't "proselytize" or otherwise make themselves conspicuous. I also doubt the truth of the blanket assertion that APs "act venomously towards anyone...". In reality, the AP welcomes the participation of the -EV recreational player; that player makes +EV play possible.
I don't think EvenBob is an AP, or ever was one, so I don't think he should be considered an AP spokesman.
And the above being said, I think that some of the ridiculously excessive reactions many casinos have made to the mere existence of APs in the past would richly justify a perception of those casinos as "evil", particularly when they wipe out players' card accounts, cancel promotions without notice because of some perceived threat, or backroom some counter who was raping the casino for $12/hr. But that would only apply to those particular casinos at that time. Some casinos--South Point and the El Cortez come to mind--tolerated APs for years, but a change of ownership or management converted them to Paranoia Mode. APs feel that if the casino offers a game, they should not be punished for playing that game so well that they manage to turn the tables on the casino, and show a profit. Yet, APs are often treated like criminal lowlifes for no better reason that they play those games, and win.
Quote: mkl654321APs are often treated like criminal lowlifes for no better reason that they play those games, and win.
Casinos have the same attitude of the old time carnivals. They hate when some sharpshooter rube hits all the targets again and again because he's figured out how to shoot their gaffed gun. Thats not supposed to happen. In a casino, you shouldn't be able to figure out how to beat a game, thats not supposed to happen. Carnivals and casinos are set up to cheat you, and they both hate and despise their customers for being too stupid to realize it.
Quote: EvenBobCarnivals and casinos are set up to cheat you, and they both hate and despise their customers for being too stupid to realize it.
If you really think casinos are "cheating" in any meaningful sense of the word, why in the world would you continue to patronize them for decades?
Casinos don't cheat you by keeping an edge on the bets you make any more than your stockbroker cheats you by charging commissions. In fact, the commission on a lay bet and the commission on a stock trade are qualitatively identical - it doesn't matter how the underlying trade or bet does to the broker or casino, they're taking the vig up front in both cases.
Presumably you wouldn't think the casino was cheating if they offered 0% games. If that's true then you're confusing the notion of "cheating" with "fairness" or "equality". The world isn't fair or equal, but that doesn't mean that the winners always cheat. That's true in sports, business, and even gambling. Cheating means to not play by the same rules as the other guy. If neither side cheats then it comes down to which side has the edge. When a superior football team beats an inferior one, the superior team doesn't necessarily cheat. They're just better. Sometimes you actually do have the best of it and there's nothing wrong with pushing all-in when that happens. That's all a casino is doing - they have the best of it and they've pushed all-in.
If anything, carnival games are sneakier than casino games. In casino games (slots excepted) you can directly calculate your chances of winning and, having determined that they're lower than the payoff odds, conclude that you have the worst of it. In carnival games you can't calculate the chances of winning and most people drastically overestimate them. But every once in a while someone with exceptional skill beats a carnival game. That person didn't cheat the carnival any more than the carnival cheated anyone else.
Dealing seconds, palming cards, holding-out dice, or gaffing roulette wheels -- that's cheating.
But maybe he'll make principal someday....
Quote: JerryLoganMKL has absolutely no idea if AP's win or not when all it takes is simple common sense to know that they do not, or else they wouldn't be welcomed at any particular casino. He's just blowing more of the hot air that says what he fantacizes about IF he had the cash to play with.
But maybe he'll make principal someday....
Yes, Jerry. No AP ever wins, or ever has won. The casinos ALWAYS ferret them out, and bar them.
Go on playing $5 Double Double Bonus using The Singer Way. Since everybody loses anyway, why bother to think?
Quote: mkl654321Yes, Jerry. No AP ever wins, or ever has won. The casinos ALWAYS ferret them out, and bar them.
It may be that some so-called advantage players are deluding themselves into thinking they have the advantage. Somewhat like some systems players think that varying their bets according to past results can lead to a long-term advantage over the house -- which is interesting, because wouldn't that by definition make them "advantage players" at least in their own minds?
