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AZDuffman
AZDuffman
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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June 1st, 2018 at 8:18:08 AM permalink
Quote: TumblingBones



p.s. kudos to AZ for starting this thread.



YW, but thank Wiz also, his (firm :-) ) suggestion. FWIW we need to broaden the political discussions here.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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June 1st, 2018 at 8:24:43 AM permalink
Quote: TumblingBones

I don't think the tool vs automation divide is that clear. I used to pay 2 accountants: one for personal and one for my business. Now I pay zero and buy a new copy of Turbo Tax every year.



Technology always does this. I can imagine before my time how long it took to plot parcels of land, then compare them. I do it in minutes. .pdf files have killed bicycle couriers who used to be in every city delivering all over.

But I still do not see the autonomous car thing having the disruption the media says it will. If the entire media is so in lockstep, they must be wrong. As I see it, we have a huge case of too many too smart people missing what the average guy can see. For example, I again have to take temp work as a courier between gigs. This time mostly medical stuff. Do such a job a week and it is easy to see how many small things have to be taken into account before the car delivers on its own.

The people designing and talking it all up have usually never spend a day in their life "in the field." So they miss it.

Things will last my time at least.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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June 1st, 2018 at 9:48:29 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Is the idea to give every citizen or resident a basic living allowance or only the lowest rung on the economic ladder?

Its usually seen as "the lower rungs" type thing, but without any investigation or incentive to force recipients to climb the ladder. Alaska gives an annual award to all residents rich or poor. Universal Basic Income will give a payment "floor" to all who apply for it, irrespective of whether the condition is permanent or temporary. So a woman with a young child can just take the income or not; she does not have to prove she is looking for work, or taking classes, or bring in the kid's birth certificate or anything else.

It basically removes the administrative burden of welfare qualification and rule enforcement and allows whatever "welfare money" that is legislated to be actually paid to the needy, not the social workers or investigators.

Parks benefit communities but they do indeed benefit the adjacent landlords the most. Same with roads, golf courses, etc.

Some jurisdictions had no funds to investigate welfare frauds but later audits showed there was rather little of it. Just as various grants seem to largely benefit grant writers, we can alter tax spending wisely.
Tortoise
Tortoise
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June 1st, 2018 at 9:51:40 AM permalink
One thing that's never talked about when discussing welfare is that the Scandinavian countries have a radically different system of government than the US. There welfare programs are mostly handled at the local level which have a lot more autonomy.

A pragmatic alternative would be to decentralize the welfare programs and push the money down to the local level where different localities could try a bunch of different systems like UBI or whatever the people want.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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June 1st, 2018 at 9:58:56 AM permalink
I could easily live on 1500 a month and maintain a car if I wanted to here in Vegas.

If you look hard enough, you can find cheap places to rent, some include everything.

If you have a GF/Wife/ partner who gets the same amount, you would be just fine.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
billryan
billryan
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June 1st, 2018 at 10:37:32 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I could easily live on 1500 a month and maintain a car if I wanted to here in Vegas.

If you look hard enough, you can find cheap places to rent, some include everything.

If you have a GF/Wife/ partner who gets the same amount, you would be just fine.



Sure, as LV is the home of free buffets and the like. Let's see you do it in LA or most urban areas.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Paradigm
Paradigm
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Thanks for this post from:
RS
June 1st, 2018 at 10:38:50 AM permalink
Quote: TomG

The collective good is the goal of all government spending. Some are forced to pay much more than others to be a part of this collective good; and some people people get much more value out of this collective good than others. Given those two inequalities. there must always be some sort of redistributing effect


I see what you and Babs are saying, but I don't agree that disproportionate benefit or funding of "available to all" types of government spending is a significant wealth transfer as the term is commonly used. In fact, I would guess that even fiscal conservatives don't object to government spending on these types of "most citizens gain some benefit" type of items.

This type of government spending is very different from the direct wealth transfers that arise is when the government takes from the many and writes a check or transfers goods directly to an individual. Why would anyone supporting a capitalistic economic model be in favor of a long term program that provides for this type of direct wealth transfer?

As far as jobs going away with technology...it doesn't seem to be happening now. We have the lowest unemployment in America since 2000 based on today's jobs report. There have huge technological advancements and automation since 2000, yet a smaller percentage of the population is unemployed. How do you reconcile that with a need for UBI as a result of automation/technological advances?
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
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June 1st, 2018 at 10:48:03 AM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

I see what you and Babs are saying, but I don't agree that disproportionate benefit or funding of "available to all" types of government spending is a significant wealth transfer as the term is commonly used. In fact, I would guess that even fiscal conservatives don't object to government spending on these types of "most citizens gain some benefit" type of items.

This type of government spending is very different from the direct wealth transfers that arise is when the government takes from the many and writes a check or transfers goods directly to an individual. Why would anyone supporting a capitalistic economic model be in favor of a long term program that provides for this type of direct wealth transfer?

As far as jobs going away with technology...it doesn't seem to be happening now. We have the lowest unemployment in America since 2000 based on today's jobs report. There have huge technological advancements and automation since 2000, yet a smaller percentage of the population is unemployed. How do you reconcile that with a need for UBI as a result of automation/technological advances?



As i said before, I think it might be possible that other sectors of the economy grow as old ones become automated.

However, unemployment figures can be misleading. They don't include those who stop looking for work. They also don't measure unemployment. My understanding is that more jobs are part time and/ or low wage and low security than in the past.
Paradigm
Paradigm
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June 1st, 2018 at 10:57:36 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Sure, as LV is the home of free buffets and the like. Let's see you do it in LA or most urban areas.


If said UBI recipient can't afford to pay their own bills to live in LA, UBI starts after the recipient uses the one way bus ticket to Yuma, AZ. UBI isn't designed to pay for the recipient to live in LA. UBI/Welfare should be calculated using a subsistence income level based on the lowest 20% cost regions of the country...time to move if you need the government to pay your long term living expenses.
Paradigm
Paradigm
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June 1st, 2018 at 11:10:07 AM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

As i said before, I think it might be possible that other sectors of the economy grow as old ones become automated.

However, unemployment figures can be misleading. They don't include those who stop looking for work. They also don't measure unemployment. My understanding is that more jobs are part time and/ or low wage and low security than in the past.


Is technology the reason behind the "part time/low wage/low security" jobs of today vs. the past? You would think that part-time/low wage/low skill jobs would be the first to be eliminated by technology (e.g. self ordering kiosks in McDonalds).

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