Allegiant Air on 60 Minutes

Just watched a great report on the problems with this low cost airline on CBS. Personally would have never flown them before this report just from previous articles I read, but this takes it to an entirely different level.

I hope Babs can add to this but there are serious problems with the FAA and how they are dealing with this airline. Also changes in the FAA with enforcement to compliance is risking passenger safety.

I also did not know the CEO of Allegiant was involved in the management of Value Jet. One can only hope the worst never happens and an accident doesn’t happen but with the amount of incidents with Allegiant has on record, it’s not worth saving a few dollars.

Worth watching if you fly or considered flying Allegiant as many do to Vegas looking for cheap flights.

I saw this as well. It was a scathing news article about Allegiant. I've flown with them on several occasions, and unfortunately, this article didn't surprise me in the least. I try to avoid Allegiant whenever possible. It will be interesting to hear Allegiant's response to this, I don't think they can ignore it. I'd also be interested how this may impact their sales. I'm guessing it may make a small difference in the short term, but in the long term, not much will change, unless something catastrophic happens.

Does 60 Minutes post their videos online? I'd like to see this.

Quote: ams288

Does 60 Minutes post their videos online? I'd like to see this.

They do put them On Demand with Comcast the next day. Not sure about online or other cable providers. I hope you find it, well worth the viewing time.

I'm a gambler, I will fly any airline if it is cheap enough. I actually have a flight on Allegiant scheduled in two weeks.

Quote: DRich

I'm a gambler, I will fly any airline if it is cheap enough. I actually have a flight on Allegiant scheduled in two weeks.

Might want to read this first:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/allegiant-air-the-budget-airline-flying-under-the-radar/

I think the video is there too.

I'm amazed how much safety people will sacrifice to save a few dollars on a flight.

Quote: JohnnyQ

Might want to read this first:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/allegiant-air-the-budget-airline-flying-under-the-radar/

I think the video is there too.

Thank you.

I just look at how many flights they have had and how many fatalities (0). BTW, I admit I am a proponent of them and have flown them about 30 times already. I figure I save at least $100 every time I fly them and I am cheap. So far I have probably saved $3,000 by using them.

Quote: billryan

I'm amazed how much safety people will sacrifice to save a few dollars on a flight.

Guilty!

I am a nihilist so safety is a very small concern for me.

I just watched it. Yikes.

That FAA guy they interviewed seems super shady.

Quote: Boz

Just watched a great report on the problems with this low cost airline on CBS. Personally would have never flown them before this report just from previous articles I read, but this takes it to an entirely different level.

I hope Babs can add to this but there are serious problems with the FAA and how they are dealing with this airline. Also changes in the FAA with enforcement to compliance is risking passenger safety.

I also did not know the CEO of Allegiant was involved in the management of Value Jet. One can only hope the worst never happens and an accident doesn’t happen but with the amount of incidents with Allegiant has on record, it’s not worth saving a few dollars.

Worth watching if you fly or considered flying Allegiant as many do to Vegas looking for cheap flights.

Missed it on 60 min. But ATC is already talking about it on my social feed. I will watch it soon.

Allegiant changed their name after the ValueJet disaster, where they dumped one into the Everglades after it caught fire. It was improper movement of unsecured oxygen cannisters. But the entire structure of VJ was folded into Allegiant. (Not sure what 60min said about it, but it was a lot more than the CEO that became Allegiant, though there was another airline merged with VJ). It wasn't a coincidence that it happened immediately after the accident.

I worked them about a dozen times a day, sometimes more, before I retired. They had more than their share of in-flight issues. The pilots were relatively competent and professional, but their maintenance was known locally to be scary stuff, for years. Their pilots were also pressured to fly equipment with placards on vital instruments and other violations of safety guidance/FARs.

I don't fly them, but I have paid for family to fly them, without too many misgivings. The last time I used them for that was over 10 years ago, though. So I'm guessing it bears looking into.

The general wisdom about the airline safety culture is, that we have ruthlessly pursued the details of every accident and many incidents for over 50 years now. That has led to an enormous amount of changed practices, design materials, and go/no go decisions changing.

The practical result of all those examinations and improvements is that the industry has virtually eliminated catastrophic, single-point-of-failure issues. The last big US hull loss was late in 2001, when AAL dumped on Rockaway Beach, LI. That's almost 20 years now, when throughout the 70s, 90s, and 90s, we were losing one a month or more, for all kinds of reasons.

So now it's the little stuff that adds up, none of it fatal by itself, but in just the right circumstances, the chain of events can be fatal. That was our slogan for years, might still be, "Break the Chain". Take the extra step, ask the question, err on the side of caution. You might never know if you were right, but the small anomaly didn't get ignored.

Allegiant, if they are cutting corners on maintenance, is going against this. And it will lead to a disaster. It has already led to a dozen or more incidents locally, over the last 10 years. Engine catching on fire during taxi. Landing gear failure but no one hurt. Stuff like that on the local news.

Here's one that has always stuck with me. Not to change the subject, but it illustrates the issue so well. Exact details elude me, but a large jet flown by a British company had a catastrophic failure. They were up in level flight, 30-some thousand feet, 500+ mph, and the captain's windscreen blew out and sucked him out of the cockpit.

The first officer saw him go, and was close enough to grab him by the belt or something as he was halfway gone. The captain was pushed strongly against the top of the airframe by the airstream, and the copilot couldn't pull him back in, so he hung on, and somehow got the airplane down to breathable altitudes while hanging on to the captain, who.was getting battered against the hull the whole time. Think the copilot quickly got help holding the captain , but still, can you imagine? He/they finally got the captain back in the airplane, beaten bloody and unconscious, but he survived (and was interviewed for the documentary show).

Anyway, they traced it back. The company had their maintenance base in some other country, and some mechanic had either noticed a screw loose in the windscreen perimeter, or it had been written up for repair. He didn't have a certificated for flight one at hand, so he took the damaged screw to the workbench, matched it up, and just stuck that screw in the hole. It failed at altitude, that bit of weakening put too much stress on the adjacent screws under pressurized jet flight, and they in turn failed, but in a matter of moments, nearly killed the captain, could easily have killed the entire airplane with the explosive decompression.

That's what cutting corners in maintenance can do.

That's also why a landing gear U-Bolt costs $80, when you can buy one the same shape.and apparent strength at True Value for $1.29.

The FAA had BETTER not be slacking off on inspecting those guys. They're the ones who've been forcing them to do it right all along, which is their job. But that's enough from me without seeing what got said.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Here's one that has always stuck with me. Not to change the subject, but it illustrates the issue so well. Exact details elude me, but a large jet flown by a British company had a catastrophic failure. They were up in level.flight, 30-some thousand feet, 500+ mph, and the captain's windscreen blew out and sucked him out of the cockpit.

I think I remember that. Just about a month ago one of our corporate jets lost a windshield at altitude south of Boise. I was not on it but my coworkers were. They said it sounded like a shotgun going off. Fortunately this Bombardier had dual windshields and only the outer one popped off. I was talking to one of the pilots afterward and he said that is the second time that has happened to him in his career.

Quote: ams288

I just watched it. Yikes.

That FAA guy they interviewed seems super shady.

He's a government employee. Of course he's shady.

Quote: beachbumbabs

-snip-

A few upgrades/changes to your post:

ValuJet merged with AirTran, and AirTran was later bought buy Southwest Airlines.

The current Allegiant CEO Maurice J. Gallagher, Jr. was also the CEO of ValuJet (including the time of the Flight 592 crash).

----------

I chuckle when people talk of not flying commercial airliners. There is no safer way to travel, period. Yes, we are all scared/excited when we fly and we have no control of our situation. It is still the best/safest way to travel (particularly for long distances).

Quote: Keeneone

The current Allegiant CEO Maurice J. Gallagher, Jr. was also the CEO of ValuJet (including the time of the Flight 592 crash).

I interviewed with him when he was CEO at a small telecom company called MPower. He seemed very intelligent and very down to earth. I did not accept that job.

Loss of windshield at altitude.
The crew was under the impression the pilot was probably dead but did not want his corpse getting sucked into an engine.

The maintenance was performed in the UK.

Some information was suppressed by the company and the maintenance guy went to court but was unsuccessful in his endeavors. He always said that irrespective of the investigators failing to warn him of his right to remain silent and have a representative present, he would have said and done exactly what he did anyway.

It was not ONE screw but several. The correct screw designation was available on microfilm records but turnaround time never allowed paperwork and the short hangar made access to the front of the plane difficult. It was but a slight diameter/length difference in the screws but as far as is known there was no problem involving counterfeit parts, just the wrong part.

The Everglades flight was really the largest bomb ever put on an aircraft. First Officer was informed prior to take off and signed the paper work without making a physical examination of the Expired Oxygen Generators a misnomer derived from the Spanish for Empty Oxygen Generators which are of course the most dangerous kind. It was an intensely hot smoky fire that burned thru all metal and all cables in scant minutes resulting in total loss of control.

As safety improves and redundancies exist, maintenance shortcuts becomes akin to "point shaving" in a sporting event. It doesn't change the winner, just the bookies profit margin. A post maintenance flight is always said to be the most dangerous. Its the safety margins that keep getting eroded. Pilot training, pilot fatigue, maintenance skimping.... yet the plane still gets there. Just with less of a margin.

At some price point it becomes economically impossible to be flown safely but passengers still line up for the bargain prices.

Quote: FleaStiff

Loss of windshield at altitude.
The crew was under the impression the pilot was probably dead but did not want his corpse getting sucked into an engine.

The maintenance was performed in the UK.

Some information was suppressed by the company and the maintenance guy went to court but was unsuccessful in his endeavors. He always said that irrespective of the investigators failing to warn him of his right to remain silent and have a representative present, he would have said and done exactly what he did anyway.

It was not ONE screw but several. The correct screw designation was available on microfilm records but turnaround time never allowed paperwork and the short hangar made access to the front of the plane difficult. It was but a slight diameter/length difference in the screws but as far as is known there was no problem involving counterfeit parts, just the wrong part.

The Everglades flight was really the largest bomb ever put on an aircraft. First Officer was informed prior to take off and signed the paper work without making a physical examination of the Expired Oxygen Generators a misnomer derived from the Spanish for Empty Oxygen Generators which are of course the most dangerous kind. It was an intensely hot smoky fire that burned thru all metal and all cables in scant minutes resulting in total loss of control.

As safety improves and redundancies exist, maintenance shortcuts becomes akin to "point shaving" in a sporting event. It doesn't change the winner, just the bookies profit margin. A post maintenance flight is always said to be the most dangerous. Its the safety margins that keep getting eroded. Pilot training, pilot fatigue, maintenance skimping.... yet the plane still gets there. Just with less of a margin.

At some price point it becomes economically impossible to be flown safely but passengers still line up for the bargain prices.

Thanks for the corrections and additions, FleaStiff!

Great piece. Sad commentary on the FAA as a feeble puppet of the airline industry.

I guess I only value my life at about $1400 since that is approximately what I have save in the 5 times flying with them. Does anyone want my sole for about $1200?

Quote: GWAE

Does anyone want my sole for about $1200?

They better be Italian leather for $1200

Quote: Wizard

Great piece. Sad commentary on the FAA as a feeble puppet of the airline industry.

Heck, the RMS Titanic lifeboat situation was blamed on the Ministry of Trade but it was a revolving door for shipping executives. Same thing with the FAA executives. When they retire they want a job with the airlines. Same as Defense Contractors, etc.

Babs: I felt such a fool trying to embellish on one of your aviation posts but I always admired the personal courage of that maintenance worker. He immediately revealed each step of what he had done, he immediately handed the investigators the waste basket with the old screws. He did not engage in any hem or haw actions and it was his employer's lawyers who tried to shut him up but he refused to be silenced since he truly believed safety was more important than keeping his job.

Damn that’s sketchy. Spirit’s still probably worse though.

Yeah, but a couple things to keep in mind:

1) Allegiant had 9 "incidents/accidents" in 2017: https://www.aeroinside.com/incidents/airline/allegiant

2) From their own Annual Report they had a total of 11,128,191 passengers in 2016. Their airplanes, while vary a little bit, seat an average of 178 passengers per flight. This would lead to a total number of flights of 62,517 "full" flights... so let's round down and say something like 55,000 flights?

*Doc pointed out I rounded the wrong way... more like 70,000 flights. UPDATED math to match below.

3) If they had 9 total incidents/accidents (that don't even all have to do with the equipment), that's 9/70,000 = .000129, or an incident about 1 in 7,777.78 flights. Again - we're including incidents/accidents that have nothing to do with the equipment (like employee perhaps, which you could get at any airline).

4) Through google research about 50% of the population never or 'rarely' flies (they define rarely as in 1 time per 5 years). Other than that maybe a few times per year on average for the average person, and probably dozens of times for business travelers traveling frequently.

Basically I'm not a spokesperson for Allegient, but just keep in mind that when it comes to statistics, anyone can paint any kind of picture they want. So saying "If you fly Allegient you must not care about your safety" is a pretty silly statement. In order for that statement to be true, in my opinion, they would have to be dropping planes from the sky all the time.

Would you have the same attitude towards a neighbor who routinely took pot shots at you but the cops don't bother coming out they just remind you that so far he has missed well over 99 percent of the time at everything he has ever shot at?

Quote: FleaStiff

Would you have the same attitude towards a neighbor who routinely took pot shots at you but the cops don't bother coming out they just remind you that so far he has missed well over 99 percent of the time at everything he has ever shot at?

If he had a 1/7777.78 chance of hitting me, and he only shot "on average" 2-3 times per year, that wouldn't be too terrible odds. The apples and oranges part you're referring to is me opting in to a service as opposed to being forced to be shot at. No one is forcing anyone to fly Allegiant.

Quote: Romes

... they had a total of 11,128,191 passengers in 2016. Their airplanes, while vary a little bit, seat an average of 178 passengers per flight. This would lead to a total number of flights of 62,517 "full" flights... so let's round down and say something like 55,000 flights?

Sounds to me as if you are rounding in the wrong direction. To get that many passengers on 55,000 flights, wouldn't they have to be flying at an average of more than 100% occupancy?

Quote: Doc

Sounds to me as if you are rounding in the wrong direction. To get that many passengers on 55,000 flights, wouldn't they have to be flying at an average of more than 100% occupancy?

11,128,191 / 178 passengers per flight (100% occupancy) would be 62,517 flights... assuming NOT full flights you're RIGHT I rounded the wrong way even lol... so it would be MORE flights, something like 70,000 =).

i.e. about 1 in 7777.78 chance of an incident/accident that also includes employees not equipment and all incident/accidents not even just life threatening ones.

Even if I went to vegas and flew Allegiant BOTH ways twice per year (so 4 flights) for the next 40 years, that's still only 160 trips... and if we "ignored" that they're independent trials (which we should not) that would still be 160/7777.78, about a 2% chance in my LIFE (again that's even being wrong and being additive).

Thanks Babs for taking the time to add your perspective.

I for one would never fly Allegiant before this report based on other previous stories.. The Tampa Bay Times did some good reports years ago as shown in the program. While air travel is incredibly safe, and the odds of an incident are small, why take he extra chance with an airline that it seems is cutting maintenance costs?

The other problem with a small airline like Allegiant is the lack of flexibility in flights and flight times. If there is any issue with the plane, they don’t have backups or many options. Who wants to increase the risk of sitting at an airport longer than expected because of issues?

In my case, American flys 4-5 Non stops a day to Vegas from Philly, plus many 1 stop options. Leaving as early as 8AM and as late as 8PM. In the event there is an issue with a plane, American has options with other planes and flights. Allegiant flies from Allentown with stops needed and few flight options. Saving a few dollars isn’t worth the potential wasted time and lack of backup options for me.

Quote: Boz

The other problem with a small airline like Allegiant is the lack of flexibility in flights and flight times. If there is any issue with the plane, they don’t have backups or many options. Who wants to increase the risk of sitting at an airport longer than expected because of issues?

You are correct, I weigh the expense against the potential pitfalls. My wife and I are flying to Idaho falls soon. United wanted $498 per ticket and had a two and a half hour layover in Denver. Allegiant has a direct flight for $98. For me the $800 savings and no layover is too good to pass up.

I try to fly American whenever possible, never had a single issue with them.

Budget airlines like Spirit end up being just as expensive for all the things they nickel and dime you for.

If it’s any indication of how deathly sick I was coming back from Vegas last year, the Spirit flight attendant gave me several free soft drinks and a free muffin. I didn’t eat the muffin.

I'm terrified flying already, but getting over it. Would not roll the dice with them, it's not worth it. Sad thing, if others get scared of Allegiant, other flight options will go up in cost I'd guess.

I flew Allegiant frequently Seattle-LV Because it was cheap.
I later discovered after their carry on, and seat selection fees
I could fly Delta or Alaska for pretty much the same price.
Spirit air same thing after baggage fees they cost the same
on average as Alaska or Delta.

Quote: rainman

I flew Allegiant frequently Seattle-LV Because it was cheap.
I later discovered after their carry on, and seat selection fees
I could fly Delta or Alaska for pretty much the same price.
Spirit air same thing after baggage fees they cost the same
on average as Alaska or Delta.

Doesn't delta also charge for bags and seats too? I know we flew one last summer that did and I am pretty sure it was delta.

It's been years since I tried to book a Rochester-stop somewhere- Laughlin trip but I remember the original price just kept getting more and more. I don't recall all the fees, just that the total price wasn't nearly as attractive.

Quote: FleaStiff

Heck, the RMS Titanic lifeboat situation was blamed on the Ministry of Trade but it was a revolving door for shipping executives. Same thing with the FAA executives. When they retire they want a job with the airlines. Same as Defense Contractors, etc.

Babs: I felt such a fool trying to embellish on one of your aviation posts but I always admired the personal courage of that maintenance worker. He immediately revealed each step of what he had done, he immediately handed the investigators the waste basket with the old screws. He did not engage in any hem or haw actions and it was his employer's lawyers who tried to shut him up but he refused to be silenced since he truly believed safety was more important than keeping his job.

Meant what I said in thanking you. That's exactly the ruthlessness I was talking about, that we all had to be painfully honest, no matter how embarrassing or stupid we looked, in order to serve properly. I hope he (the maintenance guy), along with the rest of us, take great pride in the hard road leading to the safety record we have now. It's worth it.

Quote: GWAE

Doesn't delta also charge for bags and seats too? I know we flew one last summer that did and I am pretty sure it was delta.

Delta does charge for seat selection but it's cheap
compared to spirit etc...

I just flew on spirit and Frontier and only brought a personal item. Basically a book bag with five t-shirts, 5 pairs of socks, five boxers, a few extra shirts, and miscellaneous items. I wore my jeans because they would fill the bag. It was kind of tough not having everything you need but usually you have too much. If I Can Fly for a lower price, I just rather keep the money. One problem with the strategy is the book bag is lot more difficult to carry around in a carry-on that you can just pull behind you.
I'm more confident flying with Spirit than Frontier. Spirit has a lot of new planes, and Frontier delayed my flight, because the plane was delayed for mechanical problems at another Airport.

Quote: beachbumbabs

The FAA had BETTER not be slacking off on inspecting those guys. They're the ones who've been forcing them to do it right all along, which is their job.

Well, that's pretty much exactly what 60 Minutes concluded, that the FAA is not punishing violators of the existing regulations. I forgot exactly how they phrase it.

I think the comparison that 60M made is that Allegiant has a rate of serious incidents 3 times higher than the rest of the domestic airlines. I think a lot of people are tempted to fly the low-cost competitor, assuming that the safety record is pretty much the same for all airlines. Bad assumption.

I have flown nothing but Allegiant since 2003 and
have not a single complaint. Flew to FL two weeks
ago, no problems. It's the only non stop flight
to Vegas out of my airport.

Quote: EvenBob

I have flown nothing but Allegiant since 2003 and
have not a single complaint. Flew to FL two weeks
ago, no problems. It's the only non stop flight
to Vegas out of my airport.

You can be the sixteen that gets hit against a ten, but I'd rather be the black jack.

Quote: rainman

Delta does charge for seat selection but it's cheap
compared to spirit etc...

They do?

I fly Delta all the time and I've never paid for seat selection. I know they offer "basic economy" tickets where you don't get to pick your seat and it's assigned at the gate. But the standard economy tickets let you pick your seats without a fee.

Quote: ams288

They do?

I fly Delta all the time and I've never paid for seat selection. I know they offer "basic economy" tickets where you don't get to pick your seat and it's assigned at the gate. But the standard economy tickets let you pick your seats without a fee.

Correct, just like American and all the major airlines. They both offer “upgrades” to better seats for a fee but those seats are free to Credit Card holders or frequent flyers.

I don't think the show expressed well enough that the majority of their issues have been with the MD-80's and that many of those have since been replaced. According to Allegiant all of the MD-80's will be gone by November.

Quote: DRich

I don't think the show expressed well enough that the majority of their issues have been with the MD-80's and that many of those have since been replaced. According to Allegiant all of the MD-80's will be gone by November.

I also agree with some of this. Buying older aircraft from foreign airlines doesn’t seem like a good idea. But to me the deeper issue is if they are cutting costs on maintenance staff and is there internal pressures on staff to think before declaring emergencies. Buying new planes will reduce the amount of incidents, but will it change a culture that seems to be imbedded there?

That said it’s obvious every airline has to balance safety and profit and an incident can happen anytime, anywhere. See SW today in Philly.

An engine failed on one cut rate airline, and another has stranded hundreds of passengers in Mexico, telling them to get home on their own.
There used to be a Vegas based airline that went belly up soon after the September 11th attacks. They stranded thousands of travelers when they abruptly shut down.

Quote: billryan

An engine failed on one cut rate airline, and another has stranded hundreds of passengers in Mexico, telling them to get home on their own.
There used to be a Vegas based airline that went belly up soon after the September 11th attacks. They stranded thousands of travelers when they abruptly shut down.

You may be thinking of National Airlines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Airlines_(1999%E2%80%932002)

Quote: DRich

You may be thinking of National Airlines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Airlines_(1999%E2%80%932002)

I think he is also talking about recent news. This from the past weekend.

http://www.fox9.com/news/passengers-stuck-in-mexico-as-sun-country-airlines-cancels-flight-to-msp

Quote: Boz

I think he is also talking about recent news. This from the past weekend.

http://www.fox9.com/news/passengers-stuck-in-mexico-as-sun-country-airlines-cancels-flight-to-msp

You get what you pay for.

Quote: billryan

You get what you pay for.

And again, one the few things we agree on!

Someone was sucked out of a window when debris from the busted engine on that Southwest flight broke a window. They pulled the woman back in, but she died from her injuries.

No one else was hurt.