Can casinos be guilty of mail fraud?
If a casino is owned or operated by the Evil Empire, you can't win because the Evil Empire is Too Big To Fail.
If a casino is Indian Owned, you can only sue in their tribal court using a tribal lawyer.
If its some other casino.... its very existence is predicated on politicians being desperate for tax revenue, so you ain't gonna win any judgments.
If I Were King department:
Were I a casino marketing manager I would make certain there was adequate disclosure in the mailing and that it would not be some unreadable fine print. I would also make sure that individual coupons in the mailer contained as much info as possible such as "Win A Car (one million entries expected)".
Even Oregon which, I believe, has no casinos would never impose a rule of total disclosure despite Oregon being a state that is proud of its highest per capita bars, highest per capital vegan restaurants and highest per capita strip clubs.
3772-13-02 Advertising; promotion of responsible gaming.
(A) Advertising shall be based upon fact, and shall not be false, deceptive, or misleading, and no advertising by the casino operator shall:
(1) Use any type, size, location, lighting, illustration, graphic depiction, or color resulting in the obscuring of any material fact;
(2) Fail to clearly and conspicuously specify and state any material conditions or limiting factors;
3772-13-03 Promotional activities.
(2) The casino operator shall create dated, written rules governing the promotional activity that shall be immediately available to the public and the commission upon request....
"Bounce Back Bonus" , "Guaranteed Cash Back" , "Free Play" , "Free Bet Coupon"
You have to lose or pay in some way to earn those "rewards". And even if it is a new member sign up bonus or match your tier/free play offer, you get the hairy eye ball from dealers and pit bosses alike for just using the free play or match play offer without further buy ins. Some casinos (CET properties) will give you free play coupons of $5 or $10 that are only good during weekends or holidays and only have $15-25 minimums on those days. Forcing to put your own money out there to cover the balance.
Those guaranteed cash back or bounce back are just terms to make you think you can retrieve your losses or recoup some money, but the cash back will be distributed in small increments over an 8-12 week period. So you truly can't get the full opportunity.
And watch how quickly those offers disappear when you don't empty your pockets after playing the coupon!
Quote: BedWetterBetterIt's all a play on words:
"Bounce Back Bonus" , "Guaranteed Cash Back" , "Free Play" , "Free Bet Coupon"
You have to lose or pay in some way to earn those "rewards". And even if it is a new member sign up bonus or match your tier/free play offer, you get the hairy eye ball from dealers and pit bosses alike for just using the free play or match play offer without further buy ins. Some casinos (CET properties) will give you free play coupons of $5 or $10 that are only good during weekends or holidays and only have $15-25 minimums on those days. Forcing to put your own money out there to cover the balance.
Those guaranteed cash back or bounce back are just terms to make you think you can retrieve your losses or recoup some money, but the cash back will be distributed in small increments over an 8-12 week period. So you truly can't get the full opportunity.
And watch how quickly those offers disappear when you don't empty your pockets after playing the coupon!
Casinos are such meanies. It's almost like they think they are for profit.
When you get to the point, the people in charge seemingly would pick up a hundred dollar bill before picking up their mother from the ground, it has gone too far. If you have a problem... if no one else can help... and if you can find them... maybe you can hire... The A-Team.Quote: billryanCasinos are such meanies. It's almost like they think they are for profit.
Quote: onenickelmiracleWhen you get to the point, the people in charge seemingly would pick up a hundred dollar bill before picking up their mother from the ground, it has gone too far.
Reminds me of the following joke:
Quote: Casino Public Address Announcement:Will the person who lost the $100 bill ten minutes ago please form a line to the left of the Cashier window.
As far as the various offers casinos mail to me, all seem to have the same wording in the infinitesimally small print, "Management reserves all rights." Translation: Players, you are all such toast.
No problem with that at all.Quote: billryanCasinos are such meanies. It's almost like they think they are for profit.
Now, when a casino rigs a promotion to mathematically guarantee that someone from a small pool of people will win the grand prize ? That's cheating and the casino should be heavily penalized by the gaming commission to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Criminal charges too, if it is warranted.
Quote: JohnnyQNo problem with that at all.
Now, when a casino rigs a promotion to mathematically guarantee that someone from a small pool of people will win the grand prize ? That's cheating and the casino should be heavily penalized by the gaming commission to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Criminal charges too, if it is warranted.
Agreed, but that's not what this thread is about. Big difference between running a misleading ad and a deceptive raffle.
If everyone has the same chance to earn tickets, and the drawing is random,I have no problem if twenty people earn 80% of the tickets because they play $250 machines and I play quarters.
If casinos want to behave in a predatory way - with less-than-honest give-a-ways -and treat people as if they are no more than suckers -then they run a risk. Gambling produces nothing for society other than tax revenue and low-paid jobs. If large chunks of the U.S. population decide that gambling is "stupid", "not worth it," "not how I want to entertain myself," "not as much fun as video gaming with my 3-D goggles" and/or "a drain upon society" then you will see a lot of casinos shutting down and a lot of "gaming industry butt" hitting the street.
The NFL is experiencing a sudden downturn in interest -and their response is to do everything they possibly can to improve their image and to treat their customers well. It may be too late -we'll see.
If the gaming industry acts as if they are invulnerable to public opinion and entitled to have customers and to treat them poorly, then they are badly out of step with the modern marketplace. "Change" can happen with lightning speed - and the gaming industry seems like a fossil from the 1980s.
Quote: billryanAgreed, but that's not what this thread is about. Big difference between running a misleading ad and a deceptive raffle.
If everyone has the same chance to earn tickets, and the drawing is random,I have no problem if twenty people earn 80% of the tickets because they play $250 machines and I play quarters.
Correct. In many cases large players are guaranteed 10,000 or more entries for just showing up while the regular player gets 1 entry for every $100 in Coin in or something small. Nothing wrong with that at all. And if the small player beats the odds, good for him. The smart player understands it's not an equal drawing from the start and looks for opportunities elsewhere.
Its sad when a political statement is more of a risk to your continued employment than committing crimes.
1. they come across as a large arrogant corporation focused on sucking money from the public
- ticket prices are too high
- too many advertisements during broadcasts of games
- saturation -games televised on Monday, Sunday night, Thursday night and sometimes on Saturdays
- NFL souvenir jerseys and clothing are astronomically expensive
2. They have taken all of the fun and personality out of the game (no celebrating, restrictions on what players and coaches can say, etc.)
3. Societal Values - Nowadays, there are simply so many other wonderful ways to spend your life other than watching football
Casinos have exactly the same issues.
1. Large arrogant corporations focused on sucking money from the public
2. They have taken all the fun out of it
- show I.D. and go into our data base!
- don't use both hands while holding your cards!
- don't talk in a foreign language!
- don't glance at your friend's cards!
- disappearing comps
- increasing house edge on games and 6:5 BJ
- disingenuous or deceptive marketing
3. Societal Values - Nowadays, there are simply so many other wonderful ways to spend your time and money other than gambling in casinos
Quote: billryanSpeaking of the NFL, evidently it looks harder on people who kneel during the National Anthem than it does at people who rape and kill.
Its sad when a political statement is more of a risk to your continued employment than committing crimes.
Nothing to do with the topic at hand, but nothing sad about it. Assuming you are talking about the 2nd rate QB who disrespected the American Flag which most people on both political sides love and respect. Americans love the NFL and are willing to give people who have made a mistake a 2nd chance if they have done their time or accepted their penalty. Not sure who you are talking about but most people I know will never give OJ another chance and Ray Rice had his career ended.
As for your boy, he made many Americans mad with his stance and then made it worse with his admitting he doesn't even vote. He followed the false Michael Brown story like many liberals who used the little criminal thug as a tool to push an agenda. People want the NFL to be an escape from their everyday lives and don't need someone like CK pushing their politics into it. So its an easy step to see why no NFL team wants him when there are many other equals out there to be a backup QB without his baggage. Add in he still thinks he should be a starter and who wants that on their team? Next thing will be if a team signs him they are keeping him down by starting ***** in front of him. Again, who needs it?
It's a no brainer for people operating a multi billion dollar business to stay away from him. Other than your obvious liberal bias, not sure why you can't see this. Or does liberalism make you blind? Or it is just the part that everyone is a victim? Somehow I don't see CK as a victim, as there are jobs out there for the 4.4% of unemployed like him if they really want them.
Quote: gordonm888I think the NFL is suffering because
I deleted all the rest because if you think the NFL is "suffering" you need Obamacare immediately.
The 1st round of the recent NFL draft beat every NBA and NHL playoff game in TV ratings. NFL preseason games will do the same. American stops for NFL Sundays, so even if the ratings on a Thursday night game between the Saints & Rams is not record breaking, the league is making money and making people happy.
So no, the NFL doesn't need anyone's pity, they are doing just fine and will continue to do so.
We all should be "suffering" like the NFL is.
Quote: BozNothing to do with the topic at hand, but nothing sad about it. Assuming you are talking about the 2nd rate QB who disrespected the American Flag which most people on both political sides love and respect. Americans love the NFL and are willing to give people who have made a mistake a 2nd chance if they have done their time or accepted their penalty. Not sure who you are talking about but most people I know will never give OJ another chance and Ray Rice had his career ended.
As for your boy, he made many Americans mad with his stance and then made it worse with his admitting he doesn't even vote. He followed the false Michael Brown story like many liberals who used the little criminal thug as a tool to push an agenda. People want the NFL to be an escape from their everyday lives and don't need someone like CK pushing their politics into it. So its an easy step to see why no NFL team wants him when there are many other equals out there to be a backup QB without his baggage. Add in he still thinks he should be a starter and who wants that on their team? Next thing will be if a team signs him they are keeping him down by starting ***** in front of him. Again, who needs it?
It's a no brainer for people operating a multi billion dollar business to stay away from him. Other than your obvious liberal bias, not sure why you can't see this. Or does liberalism make you blind? Or it is just the part that everyone is a victim? Somehow I don't see CK as a victim, as there are jobs out there for the 4.4% of unemployed like him if they really want them.
The National Anthem has no business in sports, period!
Had had intentions of making a complaint with gaming, but the casino was 100 miles from my home, I had more important things to do, and it didn't feel good thinking I had to make another visit to get what I was rightfully owed and entitled. The card mailed and their liability should have been all that mattered, but they maliciously screwed me over.
ESPN just had their first layoff ever -because American interest in professional sports is starting to decline. Values are changing.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe National Anthem has no business in sports, period!
I wouldn't argue that, but if it is played, don't disrespect it. Or do it, at your own risk. Your choice like liberals say all the time, just don't get upset at others choice to boycott you afterwards.
Quote: billryanI'm a Giants fan, so Kap aint my boy. He is just one of the three hundred million plus Americans that have the right to exercise the freedoms that our military fights to defend. As a proud member of the Military Fraternity, I take those rights very seriously. No one fights or dies for their flag. We fight and die for the ideas the flag represents, and our most precious freedom is to be able to protest and make our voices heard. Democracy dies in silence and the dark.
Respect your service more then you know, but you are in the minority of veterans I know. Again your right, CK's right, and my right to voice our opinion. Just don't complain about others doing the same in response to us voicing ours. This is what makes America great, many voices, many opinions.
Quote: gordonm888The NFL's television ratings last year were down 20% across the board from the previous year's ratings. And beating the NHL playoff games in the ratings is a laughable credential.
ESPN just had their first layoff ever -because American interest in professional sports is starting to decline. Values are changing.
I don't know about that. It may have reached the saturation point, three prime time games each week may be too much, but I don't see much decline in overall interest.
I'm amazed how knowledgeable my nephews are about the NFL. most of them could name the back up long snapper on most teams. I think its from Fantasy football.
Quote: gordonm888The NFL's television ratings last year were down 20% across the board from the previous year's ratings. And beating the NHL playoff games in the ratings is a laughable credential.
ESPN just had their first layoff ever -because American interest in professional sports is starting to decline. Values are changing.
Look at the ratings from week 10 through the Super Bowl. They did start slow but rebounded nicely. You sound like your talking points came from Rush. There are many changes going on in TV ratings everywhere but none have anything to do with CK. And I say that as much as I dislike him.
Quote: BozRespect your service more then you know, but you are in the minority of veterans I know. Again your right, CK's right, and my right to voice our opinion. Just don't complain about others doing the same in response to us voicing ours. This is what makes America great, many voices, many opinions.
Fear of losing ones livelihood if you speak out shouldn't happen in our country. I can think of few things that will repress free speech quicker than having to worry that feeding ones family might be affected by voicing dissent.
Quote: billryanFear of losing ones livelihood if you speak out shouldn't happen in our country. I can think of few things that will repress free speech quicker than having to worry that feeding ones family might be affected by voicing dissent.
Again the person you started this with isn't in fear of not feeding his family, but he did risk his multi million dollar position in the public eye. The average American can find work if they want, at a minimum to be able to feed their family. And if not, the government is there to help.
Anyone feeling bad for CK really needs to looks at the reasons why they feel bad for him.
By your logic, Hillary might be starving for putting her opinions out there too.
Quote: BozLook at the ratings from week 10 through the Super Bowl. They did start slow but rebounded nicely. You sound like your talking points came from Rush. There are many changes going on in TV ratings everywhere but none have anything to do with CK. And I say that as much as I dislike him.
Rush? You mean Rush Limbaugh or some other Rush? I have never listened to Rush Limbaugh in my life and I have no idea what you are talking about.
My original point was: Horse racing was once the dominant U.S. gambling institution, then casino gambling became dominant. Now, casino gambling may fade, just as horse racing has, as people turn to fantasy sports and online gambling - and video gaming and a universe full of entertainment options. And that this kind of change, that kind of paradigm shift, can happen quicker than you think -and I cited several examples including Pro Golf and even the invincible, invulnerable NFL. Therefore, the casino industry should be trying to woo their customers and kiss the customer's ass, rather than spamming them with deceptive promotions and then denying them the promotional benefits that they plainly advertised.
No, there is something wrong with that IF it is not disclosed clearly in the promotional information and/or rules. A promotion that is run intentionally to deceive patrons is not acceptable.Quote: BozCorrect. In many cases large players are guaranteed 10,000 or more entries for just showing up while the regular player gets 1 entry for every $100 in Coin in or something small. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Yes of course it effects my ( and everyone else's ) chances of winning anything in the raffle.Quote: billryanI think they need to tell you what you need to do to gain entrée into a raffle. What someone else needs to do doesn't really effect you.
Regulations around here:
3772-13-01 Definitions.
(A) As used in rules adopted by the commission, the term "advertisement" shall mean any notice or communication to the public or any information concerning the gaming-related business of a casino operator through broadcasting, publication or any other means of dissemination, including electronic dissemination. Promotional activities as described in rule 3772-13-03 of the Administrative Code are also considered "advertisements" for purposes of this chapter.
Advertising; promotion of responsible gaming.
(A) Advertising shall be based upon fact, and shall not be false, deceptive, or misleading, and no advertising by the casino operator shall:
.....
(2) Fail to clearly and conspicuously specify and state any material conditions or limiting factors;
Quote: JohnnyQ
Quote: billryan
I think they need to tell you what you need to do to gain entrée into a raffle. What someone else needs to do doesn't really effect you.
Yes of course it effects my ( and everyone else's ) chances of winning anything in the raffle.
Regulations around here:
(A) Advertising shall be based upon fact, and shall not be false, deceptive, or misleading, and no advertising by the casino operator shall:
.....
(2) Fail to clearly and conspicuously specify and state any material conditions or limiting factors;
Johnny,
I see your point, but I agree more with Bill here. Missing in the above quote of gaming regulations where you gamble is whether whatever "material conditions" the casinos give to "others" should be disclosed to you as "limiting factors." Clearly, players with more tickets in the raffle have a better chance of winning, and that "factor" does "limit" your chance of winning.
I don't know what your raffle offer (or other promotional offer) actually says. I would expect it to say something like:
Quote: Don't Miss Out on Your Chance to Be a Winner!!
As one of our most valued gaming patrons, your level of play qualifies you for 20 chances to win our Casino Mega-Raffle. Just swipe your player card at the raffle kiosk to activate your entries.
Now, I may have received only 10 chances to win. And billryan may have received 500 chances to win. And, our raffle tickets are a "limiting factor" with respect to your likelihood of winning. But, the casino was accurate in what it told you about YOUR raffle offer. At least, that's how I see it.
Added: It's almost a rule that any promotion that is advertised by mail, but coupled with absolutely zero official rules online, you will be screwed one way or another. Intentional or coincidence, I'm betting on intentional.
IMHO, if the rules on their website say something to the effect of:
Receive one free entry by swiping your card between 5pm - 7:55pm at a Promotional Kiosk, and one additional entry for every 25 Tier Credits earned from 5am – 7:55pm.
Then I would say that a non-disclosed limiting factor is that BILLRYAN gets 10,000 entries just by being a super high tier level. And that, therefore, the contest was rigged in BILLRYAN's favor.
The issue is NOT whether casino XYZ can make its own rules. The issue IS whether or not giving BILLRYAN a zillion entries unbenknownst to JOEPLOPPY makes the design of the promo in violation of the gaming regulations.
And then there's the issue of WHO the regulators are looking out for.
Right is right, wrong is wrong.
The casino will say the free entries are based on play, but yesterday's play compared to today's play. If they want to give someone X entries, give them money to earn them. So if $500 coin-in is 1 entry and they want to give them 20 entries, they should give them $1000 free play which can be played until lost in a dollar slot(added: to actually generate the entries, and which proves theyre not free and at the cost of someone). No, they want to be mini-federal reserves creating something from nothing.Quote: JohnnyQInteresting discussion. Maybe it depends on what the definition of "is" is.
IMHO, if the rules on their website say something to the effect of:
Receive one free entry by swiping your card between 5pm - 7:55pm at a Promotional Kiosk, and one additional entry for every 25 Tier Credits earned from 5am – 7:55pm.
Then I would say that a non-disclosed limiting factor is that BILLRYAN gets 10,000 entries just by being a super high tier level. And that, therefore, the contest was rigged in BILLRYAN's favor.
The issue is NOT whether casino XYZ can make its own rules. The issue IS whether or not giving BILLRYAN a zillion entries unbenknownst to JOEPLOPPY makes the design of the promo in violation of the gaming regulations.
And then there's the issue of WHO the regulators are looking out for.
Right is right, wrong is wrong.
Quote: JohnnyQInteresting discussion. Maybe it depends on what the definition of "is" is.
IMHO, if the rules on their website say something to the effect of:
Receive one free entry by swiping your card between 5pm - 7:55pm at a Promotional Kiosk, and one additional entry for every 25 Tier Credits earned from 5am – 7:55pm.
Then I would say that a non-disclosed limiting factor is that BILLRYAN gets 10,000 entries just by being a super high tier level. And that, therefore, the contest was rigged in BILLRYAN's favor.
The issue is NOT whether casino XYZ can make its own rules. The issue IS whether or not giving BILLRYAN a zillion entries unbenknownst to JOEPLOPPY makes the design of the promo in violation of the gaming regulations.
And then there's the issue of WHO the regulators are looking out for.
Right is right, wrong is wrong.
Are you sure that what the website says when you log in is the same thing it says when Harry High Roller logs in. Maybe his says earn a thousand entries by swiping your card.
Pretty sure, yeah. Because I am referring to the generic Casino website, No log-in required.Quote: billryan
Are you sure that what the website says when you log in is the same thing it says when Harry High Roller logs in. Maybe his says earn a thousand entries by swiping your card.
The particular give-away I am thinking of was a few years ago, about $ 25 k per night.
Bottom-line / Lesson Learned:
Anyway, a word to the wise. Try and do your homework on promotions. Maybe e-mail in a question using an e-mail address that doesn't identify you directly.
He says the crime is a material misrepresentation with the intent to defraud using either mail of any kind or wires of any kind, if I'm not confusing a few videos here. I think if you get an advertisement for a drawing that appears to be really simple indicating an average value of $10,000 to be awarded in a drawing, the casino should keep it this way. If you get there and you find out new rules have been added or disclosed for the first time, it was their intention to begin with, and thereby the actual design. Then the blame is pointed to the regulators, that permit these occurrences and enable them to happen, but I don't think that's a good enough excuse.
Think about Revel, you can't lose, and what they got away with. People went to gaming and gaming told them they're nobodies, they didn't care. The states are corrupt as could be.
Why not simply call and ask to speak to someone in the Promotions Department.
The biggest problem I have found with promotions is when they try to retroactively disqualify something they realize they made a mistake on, and then refuse to pay. They need to pay the person and then add a notice to anything they have since disqualified.
Quote: onenickelmiracleThe more I think about it, I think most casinos are bordering on just simply being criminal enterprises, worthy of jealousy from tobacco companies. Think about it. They're untouchable.
They are certainly "scofflaws" and worse. They have an arrogant disregard for rules and law and a feeling of entitlement.
Quote: gordonm888They are certainly "scofflaws" and worse. They have an arrogant disregard for rules and law and a feeling of entitlement.
As opposed to the typical AP?
