New Casino Games in Future

Paigowdan has some degree of success with his new game. Did he buck the tide? I'm thinking the future is not games where dealers are needed, but where the need for dealers is minimized, somewhat automated, or absent. Now I have been told I don't know what I am talking about before, but this is a hunch coming from the trend in general for modern times, modern businesses.

I'd be willing to bet.

Quote: odiousgambit

I'm thinking the future is not games where dealers are needed, but where the need for dealers is minimized, somewhat automated, or absent. Now I have been told I don't know what I am talking about before, but this is a hunch coming from the trend in general for modern times, modern businesses.

I'd be willing to bet.

I sure hope we don't go to the trend of unstaffed pit games. For me as a table player, the fact there is a human there is the main reason I'm at the casino. I know they say the younger generations like the computerized games, but to me, it's too impersonal. Of course, in the era of even money and reduced comps, anything is possible I suppose <sigh>

-B

With the market fairly saturated with casinos, and state laws relaxing to allow table games, I don't see a full move where casinos remove all of the table games and replace them with mechanical machines. Mind you, if they do, players will be able to walk from table to table without affecting other's play; there will no toking; there will be no cheating; and you don't have the payroll of the staff. Completely replacing table games with automated ones I think will only happen with legislation.

The technology is there however; in the past few years, we've seen table (dealer-less) versions of Blackjack, Let it Ride, Three Card, Roulette, and Craps. Rapid Craps and Rapid Roulette are computerized version that minimize the dealer's involvement in the game and theoretically ups the spins per hour.

PaiGowDan did not "buck the tide." He is STILL bucking and testing the tide.

"Some degree of success" ? His EZ Pai Gow game is in very few casinos, and, unless I'm mistaken, he still hasn't made a dime off it.

But I'd say his future looks a lot better than it does for other game inventors.



The need for dealers will be minimized? Perhaps, but it will be a long, slow process.

Take Rapid Roulette as an example.

It has the best of both worlds: A live dealer spinning the ball, an electronic player interface which overcomes the table problem of a player being unable to reach all areas to bet. And it allows a higher player to dealer ratio.

Despite this, standard roulette tables are more popular than Rapid Roulette - at least here in the US. In Asia, Rapid Roulette systems exist with more than 200 player stations for a single wheel. Are Asian people more comfortable with the electronic interface? Or is it simply because the Asian casinos are new, that the casino operators did not install standard tables, so the players have no choice?

Quote: odiousgambit

Paigowdan has some degree of success with his new game. Did he buck the tide? I'm thinking the future is not games where dealers are needed, but where the need for dealers is minimized, somewhat automated, or absent. Now I have been told I don't know what I am talking about before, but this is a hunch coming from the trend in general for modern times, modern businesses.

I'd be willing to bet.

Shuffle Master, DigiDeal, IGT, PokerTek and TableMAX have all made the same bet and with much more money. I believe e-table products will continue to grow, but I also believe that there will always be a core desire for the human interaction that can only come with having a live-dealer game.

However, don't confuse the game with the platform. Basically every card game is played against a house opponent of some form, typically a dealer, but the dealer always uses a fixed set of rules. Those rules can be and often are encompassed by a virtual dealer (e.g. software). Video blackjack, on slot machine cabinets, has been a small part of the industry for at least 20 years. So has video roulette. The modern platforms bring multi-player play to the table (no pun intended) but it's still the same game. Many of the e-table vendors above have different levels of functionality in their games, including live-dealer assisted and fully-automated.

I think the "computerization" of casinos is ultimately a bad idea. In the future, anyone will be able to play computer casino games from the comfort of their homes (legally). But, the only place you'll be able to go and sit and drink with friends and have a good time will be at a casino. Taking the live dealer and the real chips out of that equation will ultimately prove to be a bad idea.

While I can see a lot of reasons why casinos would want to promote games that end up up costing them less in the long run, I think such a change would keep me out of the casinos. I don't go to "slots only" locations because I want the interaction of the table games. I don't like playing online for the same reason--so that won't help me if it becomes legal. I want to place my chips on the layout and have the dealer pay me after each winner.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

PaiGowDan did not "buck the tide." He is STILL bucking and testing the tide.

"Some degree of success" ? His EZ Pai Gow game is in very few casinos, and, unless I'm mistaken, he still hasn't made a dime off it.

But I'd say his future looks a lot better than it does for other game inventors.

Actually, the game is doing beautifully, and has no "push-back." It has 15 games out, and may triple by Christmas according to my distributor.
No casino ever cancelled or reduced its table numbers, but instead ordered more. Not a single complaint or concern about the game in production or play from any leasee of the game. This is just unheard of. Indeed, the Barona Casino went 100% exclusive with EZ Pai Gow as the only Pai Gow game it offers - and we are in SIX states. This is a huge success, - a smashing success - for a new game in terms of performance, acceptance, and its likely future.

But in terms of MONEY, it's a whole different ball of wax, and this is the point that I stress.
* The patent was $25,000, and math + Gaming was $20,000, on top of running legal and accounting expenses.
* Investors had to cover it, and not only do they get 25% of what I make, I had "barbarians at the gate" when they found out how long it'll be before they'll see a return or break even. Investor meetings had shotguns and hanging rope present, and I wore a flak jacket. They now see light at the end of the tunnel.
* The distributor gets 80%, and I and Steve get 20% - and this is a great deal: they handle most licensing expenses, sales calls, traveling, except with Stations, because I already work for them. I demo it to fellow Station properties, but aside from that DEQ handles it all - and beautifully.
* Steve and I had to cover our own office expenses, incorporation fees, business tax fees, required to be a "gaming supplier" (under a distributor). Washington State Gambling Commission was THE most strict, and once passing them (us as supplier and DEQ as distributor, every other state was easy - aside from the interminable "wait for approval." For Washington State, accounting records, game details, and even my WIFE had to be photographed and finger printed. The DMV don't have sh]t on them, I can tell you that!
* To be an outright national self-distributor, the start-up costs would have increased from $50,000 to about $250,000. Just not doable with no contacts, sales force, and licensing in countless gaming jurisdictions - AND I would have been SQUASHED by the big four as a start-up. I knew it. 20% beats the bejesus out of 0%.
* And this is the good, if not great best-case scenario - to have for a new game. ALL "i's" are dotted, all "t's" are crossed, a game that is wildly approved of and praised by casino customers and houses alike, with great numbers and action across the board. We are now only a few years away from collecting on the payday, after working 80 hours a week, spending $50,000 of investor's money, risking a divorce, and having two heart attacks in the interim. Doing what it takes and putting in your dues is what's needed to get to the promised land of 100+ installs.

It'll take 100 install-plus - with no rain in the forecast - for me to quit my dealing gig. "Harways Working unless you call 'em off!" THAT's ma job for the near future....ha! "Great that you hit the $1,000 Fire bet, Sir!" answer by "thanks - here's your nickel tip!"

As for the future of table games vis-a-vis electronic, I believe (and would like to believe) it'll never disappear.

But Casinos are returning to the basics: fewer new side games, less carnival games, more basic BJ and craps.

The film industry can release a hundred new films a year to profitability. Casinos can take up may be one to three new table games a year at this point. And I can tell you a screenwriting story about that industry. Maybe I married the wrong girl....

Dave, I sure as hell did buck the tide, - my game is LIVE to great reviews and great action in six states and is poised to really take off. Damn nearly killed me, but I now feel it's worth it. This is one hell of an amazing start - a miracle start if you will - and ONE game designer sees this a year, not 40 newbies hitting it big each year in Hollywood as writers, directors, actors, etc. One in table games.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

PaiGowDan did not "buck the tide." He is STILL bucking and testing the tide.

"Some degree of success" ? His EZ Pai Gow game is in very few casinos, and, unless I'm mistaken, he still hasn't made a dime off it.

But I'd say his future looks a lot better than it does for other game inventors.



The need for dealers will be minimized? Perhaps, but it will be a long, slow process.

Take Rapid Roulette as an example.

It has the best of both worlds: A live dealer spinning the ball, an electronic player interface which overcomes the table problem of a player being unable to reach all areas to bet. And it allows a higher player to dealer ratio.

Despite this, standard roulette tables are more popular than Rapid Roulette - at least here in the US. In Asia, Rapid Roulette systems exist with more than 200 player stations for a single wheel. Are Asian people more comfortable with the electronic interface? Or is it simply because the Asian casinos are new, that the casino operators did not install standard tables, so the players have no choice?

Well as for Paigowdan's EZ Pai Gow... Try to get a seat at the EZ paigow table in Fiesta Henderson on a Friday or Saturday night. As soon as one or two open up, people from the other Pai Gow tables go fill the empty seats.

If "butts in seats" is a measurement of how this game is going to do in the future, paigowdan has not only "bucked the tide" hes created a freaking tsunami!

Speaking of that... any word on other tables in the valley or when Fiesta is going to get another table?

As far as we players needing live dealers, why is it then that we keep complaining about dealers? Granted, most of this fussing focuses on pit bosses and such. Yet I know what you are talking about too.

I was rethinking this and realized if less dealer involvement is the future, then Dan's game could be part of that too.

Thanks, Dan, for your continued input, it is fascinating and I'm sure we are all rooting for you. I hope to play your game some day.

Quote: clubflush

Try to get a seat at the EZ paigow table in Fiesta Henderson on a Friday or Saturday night. As soon as one or two open up, people from the other Pai Gow tables go fill the empty seats.

I wonder what it is that players like in particular?

Quote: Paigowdan

Actually, the game is doing beautifully...

Dave, I sure as hell did buck the tide...

FYI: I'm Dave.


Dan -

I meant no disrespect. I was merely trying to say that, although you're moving ahead, and moving at a good pace, it's still an uphill battle.

I didn't realize you had that many installs or are doing as well as you describe. Although I had no reason to think it would do poorly, I hadn't realized it was doing that well. How long ago was it where it was only one table, and only at the casino where you work? I knew you've been getting some installs, but not anything like what you've described here. I'm quite impressed.

Dave,
No problem.
I think the point you were getting across is that getting a game out for real is a brutal, EXPENSIVE, discouraging, interminal process, and even successful games often have brutal childhoods.

Casinos usually wait for other casinos to try out games ("No - YOU go first," "Naa...YOU go first!" It's almost a comedy.) Most Shift managers and casino table directors are scared and spineless to try something new, as it's viewed as a direct risk to their jobs if it bombs.

The first table out was actually at the Barona, July 1st last year; the Fiesta was added in March this year, after I had about six out.

What often happens is that a new game "Creeps out" into the world, where casinos later notice that, after two years, a new game is alive, growing, doing well and getting action, then wake up and say, "HEY! the kid is HEALTHY and doing well! I better get on this train before it's too late!" - and then - BANG! - it takes off. Three card poker had a handful of tables for a few years then exploded into hundreds when the "food taster casinos" weren't posisoned by it - but were nourished by it, after an early "childhood" problem.

What IS a really bad sign for any new table, is for a few tables to get pulled out while the install count is 20 or less during the first year or two. THEN people panic and follow suit. Early complaints or problems give a new table game a "funk" or a "Stink" that is next to impossible to shake. Three Card poker got a little of that in Atlantic City at its debut, and so was re-introduced in Mississippi to a new audience and great success a while later.

This does not apply to side bets, such as "Lucky Ladies" or "Emporer's challenge" (which is actualy a Pai Gow "insurance" side bet along with a "Fortune" type side bet.) Side bets are viewed as safe, because the underlying game is viewed as a solid foundation game, so a side bet can explode into popularity as a safe add-on.