Poll

2 votes (14.28%)
5 votes (35.71%)
3 votes (21.42%)
2 votes (14.28%)
1 vote (7.14%)
No votes (0%)
No votes (0%)
No votes (0%)
No votes (0%)
1 vote (7.14%)

14 members have voted

onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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September 16th, 2016 at 7:01:48 PM permalink
If it is said, you must consider it entertainment because the odds are too far against you, when are the odds good enough for gambling in the short term to be a rational endeavor?
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Paigowdan
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September 16th, 2016 at 7:37:47 PM permalink
What else is gambling but entertainment?
Art, Music, and Cinema, too, are entertainment (and cost money), but they are also art forms.
Gambling isn't really an art form. It might even be just an amusement.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Joeshlabotnik
Joeshlabotnik
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September 16th, 2016 at 9:47:26 PM permalink
Gambling is rational when the utility of the activity for you is greater than its cost. This is true of any transaction or activity.

By "utility," I mean a gain of some kind of value--not necessarily monetary. However, economic theory says that you monetize the utility that you obtain from a voluntary activity by the act of paying for it. So let's say you luvvv them penny slots, and play them machine-gun style at 300 coins per spin. That'll cost you something like $180 an hour. Clearly, if you keep doing that, you are deriving at least that much utility from it. So it's a rational decision to play. The utility you derive from the entertainment is greater than its cost.

This is independent of house edge or the amount of money in action. It also applies to +EV situations. Let's say I consider sitting in front of a VP machine for six hours, inhaling stale pigarette smoke, to have negative utility for me (I would actually pay NOT to do it). But a juicy promo comes up, and I decide to play. The positive utility from my EV gain must exceed the negative utility from going there in the first place. If I really didn't mind being there and playing, I wouldn't need as much positive utility to balance that out--so the activity would have greater utility for me overall, and I would play there more often. This, too, is a rational decision.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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September 17th, 2016 at 3:05:19 AM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

If it is said, you must consider it entertainment because the odds are too far against you, when are the odds good enough for gambling in the short term to be a rational endeavor?



I say when you can affect you chances.

Sports, Poker, and BJ if it is shoe dealt and can be at least a little counted. These are gambling, or a better way wagering or taking a position.

The rest is entertainment.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
RS
RS
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September 17th, 2016 at 5:10:02 AM permalink
What do you mean by gambling exactly, since it's pretty much all gambling.....well I'm assuming the %'ages are the return for a game played.

But if you're playing for entertainment, isn't that gambling too? I'm still a little confused as to what's being asked (not trying to be difficult).


But I might go play FPDW or FPJ or some other super thin edge stuff as entertainment (maybe some 2x or 10x points thing that's a 0.5% advantage) but not throw serious money or time at it, even if it is an advantage. I'm talking AP vs entertainment.

Most AP stuff isn't particularly fun, especially if it's grinding out some coin-in play on some boring game like JOB or BP or DW. But there's plenty of fun AP stuff, too....particularly certain promotions where I may play a different game than usual (like DDB or TDB) or some weird variant like UX or DSTP or hot roll....or different slot machines that have fun bonus rounds (kitty glitter is the best). Although I do get a lot of enjoyment in just figuring out HOW to play something the best way possible (not necessarily the most EV or hourly but also factoring in heat or volatility or what's best for long term or if it's better to hit it hard b/c it won't last....etc etc.)....or maybe sitting at home just analyzing results and see what needs to be changed in the way something is played.....but now I'm just rambling, aren't I?


Just re-read the OP and I guess it makes more sense now what's being asked. I guess part of it, at least for me, would definitely be the volatility and how it all works. I wouldn't be quite as worried about the actual house edge as how much it costs per hour. Playing $1 DDB would cost about $50/hour even with a 1% HE. Whereas a slot or keno machine with a 10% house edge may cost the same or less per hour.

Idk how many Comeout rolls per hour there are in craps, but if there's 35 per hour, you could play $100 PL with max odds (or no odds or whatever) and expect to lose about $50/hour.....and I think that'd be infinitely more entertaining than $1 DDB with the same cost.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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September 17th, 2016 at 1:17:10 PM permalink
Gambling is always going to have entertainment value, but at some point, only entertainment when luck itself isn't good enough to make a difference. At some point, people are embarrassed going to a casino, but at another point, they don't feel so exploited they tell friends and strangers the casino isn't that bad. Gambling has always implied the bettor hopes to increase his stake through the process knowing they might not win, but could win, but when gambling is referred as entertainment, the bettor has admitted defeat before he has began, because he knows the odds are too bad. Clearly people had different expectations going into casinos with half the holds they have now and that is when casinos started emphasizing entertainment over gambling action.
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BobDancer
BobDancer
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September 17th, 2016 at 1:24:30 PM permalink
I have no idea how to respond to the poll question.

For me, the purpose of gambling is to make money --- and to discover new things to write about (which is partly about money, and partly I enjoy being a writer and teacher.) If I don't have what I consider to be positive EV, I don't play. Period. (Well, almost period. Occasionally I make $10 sports bets with friends where I may or may not have the advantage. For me, this is pocket change and I don't consider it gambling. It is clearly mostly entertainment and social bonding.)

That said, I enjoy what I'm doing much of the time --- so I'm being entertained. If the pay schedule drops, however, it would never occur to me to continue playing just because I enjoy gambling.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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September 17th, 2016 at 1:51:00 PM permalink
I find it a little irksome that currently I feel I can seldom discuss gambling generally with people. The idea of gambling is right up there with using heroin with most people I seem to know and meet, so I just prefer to "not bring it up".

I sometimes ponder how it would go if I started saying that it *can* be cheap entertainment, much cheaper than many of the common entertainment alternatives. I won't need to say that it can also be a devastating addiction, and I wouldn't dare say it can be profitable to talented people [unless I was surprised at the conversation going well]. But I keep picturing people staring at me like I have two heads - and I think I am right, they would, and they have.

As for the poll, assuming a person is not an AP, I think it depends on more than just the HE, but more what the EV of a player's play is over time. But I picked low on the chart, 92-94%, I think that can be acceptable if someone gambles very little and picks a high variance game. That's too low for me, I want to be able to continue to say that my gambling has been on average at a HE of less than 1%. On the other hand, less than 92% really should be "for no one" - it's just ignorant to pick such games, even for someone who almost never plays. Educate yourself, people!

And to get back to that, gambling can be cheap entertainment, but you do have to educate yourself.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Paigowdan
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September 17th, 2016 at 2:24:06 PM permalink
Quote: BobDancer

I have no idea how to respond to the poll question.

For me, the purpose of gambling is to make money --- and to discover new things to write about (which is partly about money, and partly I enjoy being a writer and teacher.) If I don't have what I consider to be positive EV, I don't play. Period. (Well, almost period. Occasionally I make $10 sports bets with friends where I may or may not have the advantage. For me, this is pocket change and I don't consider it gambling. It is clearly mostly entertainment and social bonding.)

That said, I enjoy what I'm doing much of the time --- so I'm being entertained. If the pay schedule drops, however, it would never occur to me to continue playing just because I enjoy gambling.



I see Bob's POV, as do many at this place, but for many more people it is work and careers that are used to make the money and to contribute, with gambling being an entertainment. I will certainly say that my more mainstream view is often viewed as ploppie heresy here at this place.
But I have found for me that having careers and owning businesses (including outside of gaming) is also rewarding and revenue-generating, and doesn't subject me or my family to "bad week" income variance. I enjoy gambling as a pastime and not as an income expectation.

Most gamblers don't rely on gambling for income but instead as entertainment, and this shouldn't be looked down upon by those who do, though I feel this does happen. I, as well as most people, segregate work and play in such a fashion as to put gambling into the play category.

I've relied on gambling as an income source by working for casino operators, and later by supplying them casino games, relying more on the presence of gambling activities than on personally winning at some table or slot game. When I play, I look to the possibility of winning while in the action, and not to the forced expectation of winning. Indeed, if I design a game excessively pays out - I've improperly designed it.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
FleaStiff
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September 17th, 2016 at 2:24:52 PM permalink
Gambling is supposed to be entertainment...why do you think there is music, alcohol, bells, whistles, pretty girls, etc. If two big burlys stand on either side of you and the shift manager taps you on the shoulder, your entertainment is over. If you wife rushes in and scoops up your chips while screaming something about the rent and feeding the baby, your entertainment is long over, but other than extremes like that....its always supposed to be entertainment.

The opera for me would be torture, blackjack is not.

I prefer to win, but I like to gamble anyway. There is always some ship that is about to come in.

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