where is the line between gambling and entertainment?

If it is said, you must consider it entertainment because the odds are too far against you, when are the odds good enough for gambling in the short term to be a rational endeavor?

What else is gambling but entertainment?
Art, Music, and Cinema, too, are entertainment (and cost money), but they are also art forms.
Gambling isn't really an art form. It might even be just an amusement.

Gambling is rational when the utility of the activity for you is greater than its cost. This is true of any transaction or activity.

By "utility," I mean a gain of some kind of value--not necessarily monetary. However, economic theory says that you monetize the utility that you obtain from a voluntary activity by the act of paying for it. So let's say you luvvv them penny slots, and play them machine-gun style at 300 coins per spin. That'll cost you something like $180 an hour. Clearly, if you keep doing that, you are deriving at least that much utility from it. So it's a rational decision to play. The utility you derive from the entertainment is greater than its cost.

This is independent of house edge or the amount of money in action. It also applies to +EV situations. Let's say I consider sitting in front of a VP machine for six hours, inhaling stale pigarette smoke, to have negative utility for me (I would actually pay NOT to do it). But a juicy promo comes up, and I decide to play. The positive utility from my EV gain must exceed the negative utility from going there in the first place. If I really didn't mind being there and playing, I wouldn't need as much positive utility to balance that out--so the activity would have greater utility for me overall, and I would play there more often. This, too, is a rational decision.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

If it is said, you must consider it entertainment because the odds are too far against you, when are the odds good enough for gambling in the short term to be a rational endeavor?

I say when you can affect you chances.

Sports, Poker, and BJ if it is shoe dealt and can be at least a little counted. These are gambling, or a better way wagering or taking a position.

The rest is entertainment.

What do you mean by gambling exactly, since it's pretty much all gambling.....well I'm assuming the %'ages are the return for a game played.

But if you're playing for entertainment, isn't that gambling too? I'm still a little confused as to what's being asked (not trying to be difficult).


But I might go play FPDW or FPJ or some other super thin edge stuff as entertainment (maybe some 2x or 10x points thing that's a 0.5% advantage) but not throw serious money or time at it, even if it is an advantage. I'm talking AP vs entertainment.

Most AP stuff isn't particularly fun, especially if it's grinding out some coin-in play on some boring game like JOB or BP or DW. But there's plenty of fun AP stuff, too....particularly certain promotions where I may play a different game than usual (like DDB or TDB) or some weird variant like UX or DSTP or hot roll....or different slot machines that have fun bonus rounds (kitty glitter is the best). Although I do get a lot of enjoyment in just figuring out HOW to play something the best way possible (not necessarily the most EV or hourly but also factoring in heat or volatility or what's best for long term or if it's better to hit it hard b/c it won't last....etc etc.)....or maybe sitting at home just analyzing results and see what needs to be changed in the way something is played.....but now I'm just rambling, aren't I?


Just re-read the OP and I guess it makes more sense now what's being asked. I guess part of it, at least for me, would definitely be the volatility and how it all works. I wouldn't be quite as worried about the actual house edge as how much it costs per hour. Playing $1 DDB would cost about $50/hour even with a 1% HE. Whereas a slot or keno machine with a 10% house edge may cost the same or less per hour.

Idk how many Comeout rolls per hour there are in craps, but if there's 35 per hour, you could play $100 PL with max odds (or no odds or whatever) and expect to lose about $50/hour.....and I think that'd be infinitely more entertaining than $1 DDB with the same cost.

Gambling is always going to have entertainment value, but at some point, only entertainment when luck itself isn't good enough to make a difference. At some point, people are embarrassed going to a casino, but at another point, they don't feel so exploited they tell friends and strangers the casino isn't that bad. Gambling has always implied the bettor hopes to increase his stake through the process knowing they might not win, but could win, but when gambling is referred as entertainment, the bettor has admitted defeat before he has began, because he knows the odds are too bad. Clearly people had different expectations going into casinos with half the holds they have now and that is when casinos started emphasizing entertainment over gambling action.

I have no idea how to respond to the poll question.

For me, the purpose of gambling is to make money --- and to discover new things to write about (which is partly about money, and partly I enjoy being a writer and teacher.) If I don't have what I consider to be positive EV, I don't play. Period. (Well, almost period. Occasionally I make $10 sports bets with friends where I may or may not have the advantage. For me, this is pocket change and I don't consider it gambling. It is clearly mostly entertainment and social bonding.)

That said, I enjoy what I'm doing much of the time --- so I'm being entertained. If the pay schedule drops, however, it would never occur to me to continue playing just because I enjoy gambling.

I find it a little irksome that currently I feel I can seldom discuss gambling generally with people. The idea of gambling is right up there with using heroin with most people I seem to know and meet, so I just prefer to "not bring it up".

I sometimes ponder how it would go if I started saying that it *can* be cheap entertainment, much cheaper than many of the common entertainment alternatives. I won't need to say that it can also be a devastating addiction, and I wouldn't dare say it can be profitable to talented people [unless I was surprised at the conversation going well]. But I keep picturing people staring at me like I have two heads - and I think I am right, they would, and they have.

As for the poll, assuming a person is not an AP, I think it depends on more than just the HE, but more what the EV of a player's play is over time. But I picked low on the chart, 92-94%, I think that can be acceptable if someone gambles very little and picks a high variance game. That's too low for me, I want to be able to continue to say that my gambling has been on average at a HE of less than 1%. On the other hand, less than 92% really should be "for no one" - it's just ignorant to pick such games, even for someone who almost never plays. Educate yourself, people!

And to get back to that, gambling can be cheap entertainment, but you do have to educate yourself.

Quote: BobDancer

I have no idea how to respond to the poll question.

For me, the purpose of gambling is to make money --- and to discover new things to write about (which is partly about money, and partly I enjoy being a writer and teacher.) If I don't have what I consider to be positive EV, I don't play. Period. (Well, almost period. Occasionally I make $10 sports bets with friends where I may or may not have the advantage. For me, this is pocket change and I don't consider it gambling. It is clearly mostly entertainment and social bonding.)

That said, I enjoy what I'm doing much of the time --- so I'm being entertained. If the pay schedule drops, however, it would never occur to me to continue playing just because I enjoy gambling.

I see Bob's POV, as do many at this place, but for many more people it is work and careers that are used to make the money and to contribute, with gambling being an entertainment. I will certainly say that my more mainstream view is often viewed as ploppie heresy here at this place.
But I have found for me that having careers and owning businesses (including outside of gaming) is also rewarding and revenue-generating, and doesn't subject me or my family to "bad week" income variance. I enjoy gambling as a pastime and not as an income expectation.

Most gamblers don't rely on gambling for income but instead as entertainment, and this shouldn't be looked down upon by those who do, though I feel this does happen. I, as well as most people, segregate work and play in such a fashion as to put gambling into the play category.

I've relied on gambling as an income source by working for casino operators, and later by supplying them casino games, relying more on the presence of gambling activities than on personally winning at some table or slot game. When I play, I look to the possibility of winning while in the action, and not to the forced expectation of winning. Indeed, if I design a game excessively pays out - I've improperly designed it.

Gambling is supposed to be entertainment...why do you think there is music, alcohol, bells, whistles, pretty girls, etc. If two big burlys stand on either side of you and the shift manager taps you on the shoulder, your entertainment is over. If you wife rushes in and scoops up your chips while screaming something about the rent and feeding the baby, your entertainment is long over, but other than extremes like that....its always supposed to be entertainment.

The opera for me would be torture, blackjack is not.

I prefer to win, but I like to gamble anyway. There is always some ship that is about to come in.

"Gambling. "I NEED this $20 to turn into $2000 to pay my rent. I'm not here for fun. I'm here because I am trying not to be kicked out into the streets tomorrow. Entertainment. "I'm having fun as all my bills are paid and I am mainly here to relax, drink, and hopefully get points and comps."

Quote: Paigowdan

What else is gambling but entertainment?
Art, Music, and Cinema, too, are entertainment (and cost money), but they are also art forms.
Gambling isn't really an art form. It might even be just an amusement.

While at a vintage/antique and collectible store the other day, I picked up The Art of Gambling through the ages for $2 I'll probably bring it with me on my next flight. Obviously it's about gambling artwork but your post reminded about it.

I have yet to meet, in 20+ years, one person in a casino that is there for "fun." They're all there to win money.

I should have made it more clear. If you NEED the money it is gambling. If you can afford to lose it, it is entertainment.

Quote: Nathan

I should have made it more clear. If you NEED the money it is gambling. If you can afford to lose it, it is entertainment.

If you're playing Russian roulette with one bullet, you're gambling, if there are five, you're committing suicide.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I have yet to meet, in 20+ years, one person in a casino that is there for "fun." They're all there to win money.

But there are people who go play 1 coin at time or some very small amount where they really don't have a chance to win or lose much. If they break even lose or win a little they had fun and were entertained.

Many people here say that buying lottery is stupid, however I don't think buying a few lottery tickets once in awhile is all that bad. There's oftentimes much enjoyment/entertainment someone gets from the anticipation, daydreaming, talking about, what they would do with the money.

Quote: AxelWolf

But there are people who go play 1 coin at time or some very small amount where they really don't have a chance to win or lose much. If they break even lose or win a little they had fun and were entertained.

Many people here say that buying lottery is stupid, however I don't think buying a few lottery tickets once in awhile is all that bad. There's oftentimes much enjoyment/entertainment someone gets from the anticipation, daydreaming, talking about, what they would do with the money.

I'm not saying there aren't people who do consider it fun or entertaining. I have yet to meet them.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

If you're playing Russian roulette with one bullet, you're gambling, if there are five, you're committing suicide.

What if there's 6 or more?

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

What if there's 6 or more?

You're going to heaven with 69 virgins I guess.

Quote: FleaStiff

I prefer to win, but I like to gamble anyway. There is always some ship that is about to come in.

I guess it'd be a damn shame if you took the train that day.

Quote: AxelWolf

Many people here say that buying lottery is stupid, however I don't think buying a few lottery tickets once in awhile is all that bad. There's oftentimes much enjoyment/entertainment someone gets from the anticipation, daydreaming, talking about, what they would do with the money.

For the average person, I think lotto is the smartest way to gamble. As little as $1, and several days of excitement. An interesting subject of conversation (what would you do if you won? What numbers will you pick? Ummm, that's it I guess.). And, there is a non-zero chance that they win enough money to make many of their dreams come true.

Quote: AxelWolf

While at a vintage/antique and collectible store the other day, I picked up The Art of Gambling through the ages for $2 I'll probably bring it with me on my next flight. Obviously it's about gambling artwork but your post reminded about it.

Do post some scans - There is a LOT more art about gambling than "Dogs playing Poker," some classic.
Movies? Owning Mahoney is a fav.
Music? Steely Dan, and too many C & W songs to count.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I have yet to meet, in 20+ years, one person in a casino that is there for "fun." They're all there to win money.

The fun is the chance to win money, and actually, most people are there for that. This is different.

Quote: Paigowdan

The fun is the chance to win money, and actually, most people are there for that. This is different.

That's fine. Some of us though prefer to take the chance out of the equation.

Quote: Nathan

I should have made it more clear. If you NEED the money it is gambling. If you can afford to lose it, it is entertainment.

If you NEED to win to pay rent, this isn't gambling, this is the demand of a miracle.
If someone who has a paid off house and car, money in the bank, and plenty of food in the fridge then walks into a casino, he is still gambling.

My point is if you can't afford to lose it without being evicted, hungry, or divorced, this isn't gambling, it's a form of suicide and is not entertainment, and is not gambling. It's putting a knife to your own neck as the "juice." When I think of Russian Roulette, I think of the movie the Deer Hunter, the scene where Christopher Walken remains in Vietnam to be the "gambling mechanism" of a Russian Roulette match to feed his dope habit, and Robert De Niro returns to play against him in a match betted on by a hundred screaming Vietnamese men throwing money around on the match. See the scene.

I once saw a game submitted called something like Russian roulette, and it actually had a special deck of cards with "Life" and "money" type cards, and a few cards that depicted a firing gun, where you lost. It actually had an install in the 60's or 70's at the Riviera, and the man who created it practically spent the rest of his life trying to get it re-installed, pitching it to casinos and distributors. He was as old a Methuselah, shabbily dressed, and was begging - beseeching people for it to be picked up. I saw it when I worked for Galaxy in 2013.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Quote: Paigowdan

The fun is the chance to win money, and actually, most people are there for that. This is different.

That's fine. Some of us though prefer to take the chance out of the equation.

If you take chance out of the equation, it then becomes work, which is neither gambling or entertainment.

Quote: Paigowdan

The fun is the chance to win money, and actually, most people are there for that. This is different.

If you're dealing a game with a 5% theoretical hold, then the casino decides it should now hold 10%, it would seem obvious you'll receive less tips. People won't usually tip after a loss unless they're leaving the table. The fun part is when your hand reaches over to pay them and not when you're taking bets away.

The average player will lose twice as much winning less often and they're going to feel like they're not gambling anymore, rationalizing they're just giving the money away now for entertainment. You should be thinking then, how can it be fair the casino is making more but you're making less. Calling it entertainment is rationalization because the gambler doesn't want to admit what they're doing is gambling, because gambling at those odds would be stupid. They're not stupid, they don't do stupid things, so it must instead be entertainment because paying for entertainment is socially acceptable.

That's what I feel, casinos have rebranded gambling as entertainment because ten years ago playing a slot, a person could gamble a single penny and get the same return a player could get playing $50 in a HL room. Calling it gambling, the casino couldn't say gambling without cracking up laughing.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Quote: Paigowdan

The fun is the chance to win money, and actually, most people are there for that. This is different.

If you're dealing a game with a 5% theoretical hold, then the casino decides it should now hold 10%, it would seem obvious you'll receive less tips. People won't usually tip after a loss unless they're leaving the table. The fun part is when your hand reaches over to pay them and not when you're taking bets away.

Generally, the table hold (or the percentage of buy-in money retained) is between 18% and 35%, depending on the game offered on a house edge of a few percentage points.
It was more fun to deal on a winning table as the mood was better. I never worried about tips, as just being a friendly and good natured dealer who doesn't sweat tips helps that situation. Most dealers get this.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

The average player will lose twice as much winning less often and they're going to feel like they're not gambling anymore, rationalizing they're just giving the money away now for entertainment.

Casino games are properly designed when they neither gouge the player nor excessively dump to the player; just about all current table games are approved with multiple paytable options to properly adjust the games based on real-world performance in this area. And yes, games that gouge the players don't feel good to play and so do not provide entertainment. Such games that over-hold get yanked because of declining patronage, so there is an enforcing balance to it all.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

You should be thinking then, how can it be fair the casino is making more but you're making less. Calling it entertainment is rationalization because the gambler doesn't want to admit what they're doing is gambling, because gambling at those odds would be stupid. They're not stupid, they don't do stupid things, so it must instead be entertainment because paying for entertainment is socially acceptable.

Most gamblers do admit they're gambling when in a casino (what else you you call this?), - just as we also admit we're shopping when in a Costco, or watching a movie when in a movie theater. Gambling at a table game that has a couple of percentage points of house edge is perfectly reasonable for most people as we understand that the lights must stay on and the dealers and floormen do get paid, and no, people don't think it is stupid anymore than paying for a movie or a show that they also may or may not have had a good time at. If we win we win, and if we don't, we gave it a shot that night and hopefully had a good time with our action.

So calling it entertainment is perfectly reasonable, just as it is when we allocate our money for shows, movies, vacations, and restaurant outings etc. as entertainment also. Simply put, most normal rational, and reasonable people don't gamble their rent money or their children's medical money at the crap tables nor waste it by going to steakhouses every day of the week to get themselves evicted either. They go to have some fun with a chance of winning. It's called gambling, and it is a form of entertainment.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

That's what I feel, casinos have rebranded gambling as entertainment because ten years ago playing a slot, a person could gamble a single penny and get the same return a player could get playing $50 in a HL room. Calling it gambling, the casino couldn't say gambling without cracking up laughing.

I've heard gambling called gambling by workers at a casino, and it has always been entertainment for so many - in practice and action - throughout the ages. Unless of course you gambled the rent money and the landlord 86's you, then this gambling was not very entertaining.

ONM, I remember reading somewhere that a guy was bitter that people around him where having a good time at the slot machines, laughing, joking in very good spirits while he just lost his rent money in a slot machine and was feeling like trash.

Quote: Nathan

ONM, I remember reading somewhere that a guy was bitter that people around him where having a good time at the slot machines, laughing, joking in very good spirits while he just lost his rent money in a slot machine and was feeling like trash.

This guy, at least to some degree, set himself up for a miserable time. Scared money seldom wins.
I hope the winning folks near him weren't saying things to him like: "Oh! LOOK! Another four-of-a-kind, - can ya just dig it or WHAT...ha-ha-ha," to which he must have thought, "Eat #$%@ and die!...."

It would have made for a perfect scene in the movie Bedazzled, with Peter Cook and Dudley Moore....

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Quote: Paigowdan

The fun is the chance to win money, and actually, most people are there for that. This is different.

That's fine. Some of us though prefer to take the chance out of the equation.

If you take chance out of the equation, it then becomes work, which is neither gambling or entertainment.

No one said it was easy.

Most people don't think of gambling as a normal form of entertainment it is what it is.... gambling. People oftentimes justify it as entertainment but they know it's just a waste of money.

It's actually kinda sad, at many of the local LV bars the bartenders/waitresses etc play keno and other horrible games immediately after their shift for hours sometimes. It's almost as if you're not in the club if you don't sit around gamble, drink and tip good. One bartender said she does it to help support her co-workers and their tips. I guess they don't realize they are just passing the money back and forth until the bar gets it Meanwhile the owners are really making out like bandits. I estimate they have to be giving up $125 daily. That's over 30k per year.

It's a waste of entertainment money if you're not getting something out of it, or aren't entertained. A many people have issues of personal management is-a-vis gambling, a lot of them in the gaming business.

A criterion I use: if it is not working for me, it's time to give it a rest; resist the temptation to chase. Hard to do.
So many try to force a session only to shoot themselves in the foot. Dealers in particular see the winners and the good times and think "that could be me - it will be me after my shift." The spreading-the-wealth excuse is a rationalization one can give oneself to gamble improperly.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

If it is said, you must consider it entertainment because the odds are too far against you, when are the odds good enough for gambling in the short term to be a rational endeavor?

I think of gambling as entertainment, much like going to a movie theater.
but it doesn't have to be -EV.

be slightly better than the avg $1/2 no-limit weekend player at poker to at least breakeven. (not hard.)
earn tier credits at the poker room to make Diamond.
profit from the benefits.

also, play casino games when small +EV.
ie: reward credit multiplier days or other promos

+ev entertainment w/o much effort: Priceless

Quote: 100xOdds

I think of gambling as entertainment, much like going to a movie theater.
but it doesn't have to be -EV.

be slightly better than the avg $1/2 no-limit weekend player at poker to at least breakeven. (not hard.)
earn tier credits at the poker room to make Diamond.
profit from the benefits.

also, play casino games when small +EV.
ie: reward credit multiplier days or other promos

+ev entertainment w/o much effort: Priceless

We're going to have to place a moratorium on citing movies as entertainment. Not many waste money or time going to a theater any more.

Gambling always is going to have some entertainment just because we wonder what will happen, but the more the odds drop the gambling factor becomes delusional and entertainment is all you're left with.

If we took the lowest return the forum finds fair to gamble, 92% as a minimum would allow some realistic hope, and casinos would have to rely on choice to make money-higher bets, more bets.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

We're going to have to place a moratorium on citing movies as entertainment. Not many waste money or time going to a theater any more.

Movies are a major form of entertainment.
So Why? Because it is an apt analogy that disagrees with a position?

Quote: ONM

Gambling always is going to have some entertainment just because we wonder what will happen, but the more the odds drop the gambling factor becomes delusional and entertainment is all you're left with.

Entertainment is the very reason to gamble - you're supposed to be left with it. Gambling provides that entertainment regardless of the exact house edge a game may have.
It is NOT that gambling is winning where you may also be entertained,
Gambling is entertainment where you may also win.
If you rely on it for income that doesn't change this,
you're just operating on the basis that gambling is entertainment where I WILL win.

Quote: Paigowdan

Movies are a major form of entertainment.
So Why? Because it is an apt analogy that disagrees with a position?



Entertainment is the very reason to gamble - you're supposed to be left with it.
It is NOT that gambling is winning where you may also be entertained,
Gambling is entertainment where you may also win.
If you rely on it for income that doesn't change this,
you're just operating on the basis that gambling is entertainment where I WILL win.

The movie things is a joke more or less because people don't pay to watch movies as much. I usually plan to support a movie or two, but then I always forget. Indirectly, satellite etc.

The Browns are doing good today, though it is entertainment watching them, they realistically have not been playing football for a long time. 💡

Quote: AxelWolf

Most people don't think of gambling as a normal form of entertainment it is what it is.... gambling. People oftentimes justify it as entertainment but they know it's just a waste of money.

It's actually kinda sad, at many of the local LV bars the bartenders/waitresses etc play keno and other horrible games immediately after their shift for hours sometimes. It's almost as if you're not in the club if you don't sit around gamble, drink and tip good. One bartender said she does it to help support her co-workers and their tips. I guess they don't realize they are just passing the money back and forth until the bar gets it Meanwhile the owners are really making out like bandits. I estimate they have to be giving up $125 daily. That's over 30k per year.

In my local casino the workers are not allowed to gamble there even after or before their shift and not even on their off days for reasonable reasons.

Quote: Nathan

In my local casino the workers are not allowed to gamble there even after or before their shift and not even on their off days for reasonable reasons.

As it should be, but Vegas is greedy.

Some casinos don't allows their employees to gamble at hat location.

However some local bars in LV make a significant amount of money off their employees. It'seems actually quite the racket.Bartenders are strongly encouraged to go to other bars and make friends with other bartenders and bring them back to their bar to gamble and drink. I turn that bartender will return the favor. Basically the bars are sucking back their employees wages and some of their tips.

At a few locations they would have 2 bartenders on shift and one would go recruit from other bar's.

One word to explain it: Alcoholism.