Casinos are unfair
As AP's know, casinos most definitely do not hold to that adage.
Growing up, most of us are exposed to the concept of gaming. From playing sports, to chess, to spelling bees, we understand that it is a competition and someone has to lose for someone to win. And we are taught that if we go to a friends house and he makes rules for a game that are not fair (hmm, lets see, like when he wins he is paid more than when he loses) that we should leave and if we were to agree to those rules and still managed to beat him, AND then he said you cheated because you won and he never wanted you to play or be in his house ever again --- well, everyone of your friends would consider that person a sore loser (perhaps even accuse him of being the cheat).
And yet, that's exactly what casinos do. They are terrible sore losers and will do everything within their power to win. So much so, that if they discover anyone winning (and winning once in a while is still losing over the long term so we are talking about AP winning) then they will say you can't win anymore.
A game where whenever you win, you aren't allowed to play anymore??? A game where only losers are allowed???
Is there anyone in their right mind who would say that is fair?
I suppose casinos will say its fair through rose tinted glasses because they run a business and need to make a profit (Gee, I run a business too and need to pay my rent so what's wrong with this picture?)
Quote: KentryI was JUST about to post something similar to this, but I was going to post on how Casinos are getting tighter and gamblers are theoretically in the immediate future going to start boycotting them. Do I have your permission to start that thread as it is a bit similar to your thread? :)
I would never tell you not to do what you want as far as posts go, lol. Feel free to go ahead with a new thread or add your thoughts here. Whichever you choose. Hell, link people to this thread in yours and I will do the same to you.
Quote:I suppose casinos will say its fair
Not really, they know the math is on their
side, unfairly. They know they'll kick you
out if your winning makes them nervous.
But 99% of players never get to that
point, so they're naive about what's really
going on. This subject has been discussed
to death here, mostly thanks to Paigowdan.
He thinks casinos are profoundly fair,
almost religiously so, because he works
for one. He hardly posts anymore, though/
Quote: zoobrewAs gamblers and 1BB should know, just because a private business is open to the public doesn't mean the public has the right to make the rules or policy. If you don't like it just leave, before you are nuked.
I'm sure the casinos would like it if I just left. Usually I end up nuking them! Even when they nuke me, I spend all my time figuring out ways to get revenge and usually do.
Interestingly, the casinos also feel that if a person breaks their rules, they can now go ahead and break the law. Do you suggest if casinos are breaking the law they should quit too and close their doors if they do not comply?
Quote: EvenBobNot really, they know the math is on their
side, unfairly. They know they'll kick you
out if your winning makes them nervous.
But 99% of players never get to that
point, so they're naive about what's really
going on. This subject has been discussed
to death here, mostly thanks to Paigowdan.
He thinks casinos are profoundly fair,
almost religiously so, because he works
for one. He hardly posts anymore, though/
Yeah, I haven't seen Paigowdan for awhile either.
Won't surprise me if one day he gets so flustered with casinos he becomes their worst AP offender, lol.
Quote: darkozIFrom playing sports, to chess, to spelling bees, we understand that it is a competition and someone has to lose for someone to win. And we are taught that if we go to a friends house and he makes rules for a game that are not fair (hmm, lets see, like when he wins he is paid more than when he loses) that we should leave and if we were to agree to those rules and still managed to beat him, AND then he said you cheated because you won and he never wanted you to play or be in his house ever again --- well, everyone of your friends would consider that person a sore loser
I have a little problem with this premise ... that we want to go out and play regular games somewhere that offers them ... sports, chess, etc ... and expect them to be fair. So, on the basis of this, what is wrong with those institutions we call casinos? I would say to that, they are not about playing fair games but are about gambling, placing bets.
It is just the nature of this that no one normally offers what he thinks is a fair bet in real life. You offer a bet on team ABC because you think it will beat team XYZ. If someone says they will take the bet if you offer odds, but you don't want to, then you decline. When the casino declines to offer a bet, they are leaning on a tradition. Just because the bet is patently unfair, and we know it because of math, doesn't really change that. It is not set out to be a fair game and there's no reason for a grudge on that. I just disagree with that premise.
Before you 'go off' LOL, I would certainly agree with your other points and agree that casinos try to get away with murder. It is ridiculous to offer a bet to some, but decline to offer the same bet to others, etc., etc. This is no tradition except of their own track record, and comes from nothing honorable.
Quote: darkozYeah, I haven't seen Paigowdan for awhile either.
Won't surprise me if one day he gets so flustered with casinos he becomes their worst AP offender, lol.
He just posted the last day or two, and he's been by most days. He's got 2 games running Nevada trials at GV, and I think he's pretty busy with that.
I don't know if this still holds true in video poker but for blackjack it definitely seems true.
Quote: NeutrinoWhat bothers me isn't the fact that the odds are on the casino's side. It's the fact if you have the odds on your side, the casino will make the general public believe that you are cheating rather than you are mathematically capable enough to swing the odds in your favor.
.
All you need to know is casinos believe
every dollar you have is theirs as soon
as you walk thru their doors. Any way
they can get it. You've entered their
web, few escape.
Quote: darkoz
Interestingly, the casinos also feel that if a person breaks their rules, they can now go ahead and break the law. Do you suggest if casinos are breaking the law they should quit too and close their doors if they do not comply?
Please tell us which casinos specifically are breaking the law so we can avoid them. Which laws are they breaking? What did the authorities say when you reported them?
Quote: DRichPlease tell us which casinos specifically are breaking the law so we can avoid them. Which laws are they breaking? What did the authorities say when you reported them?
Read Bob Nersessian's book. He details many court cases he handled where people's constitutional rights were violated through illegal backroomings, false imprisonment, outright theft (This actually happened to someone I know when the casino confiscated his cash voucher and gave him a receipt explaining they were refusing to honor it), demanding ID without authority (I can ask for your ID and you can say no, both the casino and I are private citizens and don't have the right to demand ID - and before you say, yes for age purposes, that's not true either. If you are carded and don't wish to give ID they can only ask you to leave not hold you prisoner and search your pockets - see what happens when a bartender has his bouncers hold you so they can search your pockets how fast you have a lawsuit.)
Need I go on?
Quote: darkoz...demanding ID without authority (I can ask for your ID and you can say no, both the casino and I are private citizens and don't have the right to demand ID - and before you say, yes for age purposes, that's not true either. If you are carded and don't wish to give ID they can only ask you to leave not hold you prisoner and search your pockets - see what happens when a bartender has his bouncers hold you so they can search your pockets how fast you have a lawsuit.)
What about refusing to provide ID upon request when cashing out, or upon hitting a jackpot which requires a W2G?
Quote: darkozRead Bob Nersessian's book. He details many court cases he handled where people's constitutional rights were violated through illegal backroomings, false imprisonment, outright theft (This actually happened to someone I know when the casino confiscated his cash voucher and gave him a receipt explaining they were refusing to honor it), demanding ID without authority (I can ask for your ID and you can say no, both the casino and I are private citizens and don't have the right to demand ID - and before you say, yes for age purposes, that's not true either. If you are carded and don't wish to give ID they can only ask you to leave not hold you prisoner and search your pockets - see what happens when a bartender has his bouncers hold you so they can search your pockets how fast you have a lawsuit.)
Need I go on?
These are VERY rare occurrences by people, not casinos. Millions of people gamble every year in dozens of States.
Casinos have the same issues any business has. Bad employyes. Restaraunt have them (spitting on food, using old product, etc), hospitals have them (malpractice, bad bed side manner, unpleasant staff), police departments have them (racist officers, thieving evidence workers).
The occurrences of these types of things in all these businesses are miniscule, out of the ordinary and not representative of the whole.
ZCore13
Quote: KentryPlus, the Security should have seen her going into the Casino in the first place and told her to go away. It's as much tge Security's fault as it is hers.
The only argument you can make in this vein is that they should ID everybody, and I wouldn't agree, but can accept that. Aside from that, and assuming no such policy was in place at that casino, how can you possibly expect every member of security to have every face memorized x days after the fact?
I probably agree that they didn't need to send her to jail, but what she would have signed upon self-exclusuon would basically say that is what could happen.
Quote: mason2386Not in my line of work. It is a common mantra, "screw up, move up." It is done in the hopes that the screwups you were making at the level you were at is nolonger possible and that we will nolonger have to deal with those screw ups.
The Peter Principle. Often quoted as happening at their work. Almost never true.
ZCore13
Kentry quote, "About the issues of Casinos being unfair, some people think that a Casino was being unfair when a woman who put herself on the self exclusion list went into the Casino while still on the list, won a huge Jackpot of $3,041 and had to give up her Jackpot that she won and the Casino had her thrown in jail. I personally think having her thrown in jail was too far. Making her give up a huge Jackpot she won was punishment enough. She should have been told to get off of the Casino property, but not thrown in jail. Plus, the Security should have seen her going into the Casino in the first place and told her to go away. It's as much tge Security's fault as it is hers."
I am so confused. Was this in the U.S.A.? You have finally confused me. I am completely and utterly lost. ........ Can anyone decipher his statement to make sense? I am so confused......
Quote: mason2386And confiscation of your win?
Every been found gambling in a casino in Arizona loses any jackpot that they win any money that is in a machine and any bet that is in a bed and a circle at the time they are found. That money gets donated to charity by the casino.
No casinos keep that money anywhere that I know of. It is either donated to charity or into a Fund that gets used for schools and roads and that sort of thing.
ZCore13
Quote: DeucekiesWhat about refusing to provide ID upon request when cashing out, or upon hitting a jackpot which requires a W2G?
What is your question Duecekies? Are casinos allowed to violate your rights in those situations? The answer is still absolutely not.
If the casino asks for ID upon cashing out for IRS reporting purposes (this has been answered repeatedly in other threads) the IRS own rules is the casino honors the payment and takes down a description of the person. Even if the casino wanted to go farther, they could simply refuse to pay the casino cheques until ID is shown.
That is all they have a right to do.
BTW - I have seen plenty of people refuse to show ID at the cashier and the cashier simply says they can't honor the voucher. But have security surround you and search your pockets for ID, taking you a prisoner into their back rooms, that is illegal.
There is no room for discussion there. It is illegal.
Quote: darkoz
If the casino asks for ID upon cashing out for IRS reporting purposes (this has been answered repeatedly in other threads) the IRS own rules is the casino honors the payment and takes down a description of the person. Even if the casino wanted to go farther, they could simply refuse to pay the casino cheques until ID is shown.
That is all they have a right to do.
That's what I was asking. Obviously nobody's going to grab someone's purse and look for an ID; that would be absurd. I was curious if a casino can withhold the payout until they are willing to show ID.
I've seen it once on the job. The player wasn't refusing to show ID, he simply forgot to bring it with him. We told him to go home and get it, and he could take his chips with him, or we could watch them.
Quote: DeucekiesThat's what I was asking. Obviously nobody's going to grab someone's purse and look for an ID; that would be absurd. I was curious if a casino can withhold the payout until they are willing to show ID.
I've seen it once on the job. The player wasn't refusing to show ID, he simply forgot to bring it with him. We told him to go home and get it, and he could take his chips with him, or we could watch them.
I see.
I was answering someone else's question about what the casino does that's illegal so I thought you were referring back to that question as well.
Quote: darkozI see.
I was answering someone else's question about what the casino does that's illegal so I thought you were referring back to that question as well.
Nope, just asking a follow-up once you brought up IDs. Was never disagreeing, sorry if it came across that way.
Quote: DeucekiesNope, just asking a follow-up once you brought up IDs. Was never disagreeing, sorry if it came across that way.
No problem. It's the main problem with chatting only through text and words. You lose the nuance of inflection. And this site is filled with people challenging you so...
If you're cashing out (vouchers, chips) they can ask for ID, but can only legally demand ID (and SSN) if the cash out exceeds $10,000, for a CTR. Any amount below that (exactly $10k [i believe] or less), they can obviously ask for ID, but not demand. That's typically for age verification or if they're gonna do a SAR. If you refuse to show ID, they would still have to cash you out, but when they file the SAR they'd just enter a physical description and whatnot. This is for the treasury.
IRS and the U.S. Treasury don't care about the same things.
IRS = taxes
Treasury = fraud/anti-terrorism
Here is the report. Upon reading it thoroughly, she was released. Still sucks to have to give up a $3,041 Jackpot. Ouch.
An AC slot player ("Zkoddie") hit a $20,000 jackpot. He was denied payment because of the machine's disclaimer clause: "Malfunction voids all play and pay."
Another jackpot-winner was falsely arrested for cheating. I think that was a great excuse for NOT paying the jackpot. I kid you not. You can read all about the lawsuit in this link:
ANTHONY RAGNO AND DANIEL TEDESCO" Plaintiffs, vs. SUNSET STATION, INC., a Nevada Corporation; VINNY GILVARRY, an individual
1) Casinos are exceedingly unfair. This isn't news to any of us on these forums.
2) If you don't like their rules/games, don't play.
3) Most (some?) of us have figured out ways to beat them at their own games, legally. So screw them.
4) Anyone that doesn't realize/understand why a casino is unfair doesn't understand the games/math/mentality behind them. It's the uneducated that give the casino their power... but it's also the uneducated that also give the casino their money. Without them, the games wouldn't be available.
It's a double edged sword. If casinos HAD to let winning players play, they'd simply change the rules even further so that you literally couldn't win. With blackjack for example... They'd just make EVERY game 1-1 for blackjack, no doubles, no splits, and deal out 10 of 20 decks. It would destroy the game. Sure, no counters would ever win any money, but then it would also destroy their blackjack community. So, their hands are tied. What else can they do other than try to identify and kick out counters?
p.s. My real feelings are that "TRULY PROFITABLE" counters are 1% of the 1% counting community. They really shouldn't care all that much about counters that don't have a base bet of a black chip.
Quote: RomesWith blackjack for example... They'd just make EVERY game 1-1 for blackjack, no doubles, no splits, and deal out 10 of 20 decks.
My head just started to hurt at the thought of hand-shuffling a twenty-deck shoe.
Addicted idiot.
Quote: mason2386Not in my line of work. It is a common mantra, "screw up, move up." It is done in the hopes that the screwups you were making at the level you were at is nolonger possible and that we will nolonger have to deal with those screw ups.
This was called "fumu", and was quite common in ATC (and you all should, as the flying public, be glad of it). If people were incompetent at moving aircraft (it is an art, a craft, and a talent; can't really be done by simply following procedures or rules) but were otherwise ok or better employees, the best place to put them was usually into supervision or management and get their butts away from the scopes or runways. Then for many of them, the only issue was 8 hours/month currency, which they would do when it was dead quiet and could log the hours without the complexity and conflicts. Yeah, some of them were even worse as your boss than as your co-worker, but at least people weren't dying for it. Not surprised there are other professions where this is also true.
