100xOdds
100xOdds
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September 26th, 2015 at 8:12:23 PM permalink
So I was at a bar in a casino and a guy was talking about him almost losing $500 because he was a dumbass.

he said thought he cashed out of his machine. but when he went to the cashiers cage, he couldn't find his slot ticket.
he went back to the machine and saw a lady there playing. the amount on the machine was $5xx.
he asked her if there was $ in the machine when she sat down. she said no.

He went to security.
Cameras showed that after he left, she sat down. and it also showed that there was still $5xx in the machine when he left.
he said security went to talk to her. she refused to give back the $.

they asked him if he wanted to press charges. he said as long as he gets his $ back, she's free to go.
and he got his $ back.


Yeah, this makes sense. Security can prove the $ belongs to someone else.
it's not yours and not giving it back when asked is stealing.

if I found $ in a machine and security told me the $ belongs to XYZ and the cameras can prove it, I would have no problem giving it up.
On the other hand, I would probably just cash out instead of playing it and take the ticket to a self-service kiosk to cash it. then leave.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
zoobrew
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September 26th, 2015 at 8:32:01 PM permalink
"On the other hand, I would probably just cash out instead of playing it and took the ticket to a self-service kiosk to cash it. then leave."

Doing this will probably force the casino/police to follow the path of an arrest warrant for you(the person in the photo). I wouldn't plan on visiting a casino in that city for awhile.
rxwine
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September 26th, 2015 at 8:41:21 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds


if I found $ in a machine and security told me the $ belongs to XYZ and the cameras can prove it, I would have no problem giving it up.
On the other hand, I would probably just cash out instead of playing it and took the ticket to a self-service kiosk to cash it. then leave.



I thought of another thing you could do in this kind of situation.

Lots of people talk about crummy casino personnel they run across. Cash it out and go give it to your least favorite tip hustler, or whatever person you had a problem with.

Have a good laugh when it is re-claimed by security later.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Dodsferd
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September 26th, 2015 at 8:57:24 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Yeah, this makes sense. Security can prove the $ belongs to someone else.
it's not yours and not giving it back is stealing.

if I found $ in a machine and security told me the $ belongs to XYZ and the cameras can prove it, I would have no problem giving it up.
On the other hand, I would probably just cash out instead of playing it and took the ticket to a self-service kiosk to cash it. then leave.



Each ticket is logged by the slot machines when they're inserted or cashed out. Whether someone plays the money or cashes it out, they're still caught.

My favorite is when someone puts in $20 on top of it, spins once, and cashes the whole thing out. Still able to determine whose credits is whose.
This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.
AxelWolf
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September 26th, 2015 at 9:34:58 PM permalink
Quote: Dodsferd

Each ticket is logged by the slot machines when they're inserted or cashed out. Whether someone plays the money or cashes it out, they're still caught.

My favorite is when someone puts in $20 on top of it, spins once, and cashes the whole thing out. Still able to determine whose credits is whose.

And? Elaborate more please with different scenarios.

Other than not forgetting in the first place. What's the best way for a player to protect himself from this?

What happens if player leaves $100 behind, player B comes along and puts in $100, by the time security arrives all the money is all lost?

What happens if player leaves $100 behind, player B comes along and puts in $20 in plays hits a jackpot(on player A's credits and gets paid. Finally Security arrives.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
sabre
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September 26th, 2015 at 9:48:28 PM permalink
Quote: Dodsferd

Each ticket is logged by the slot machines when they're inserted or cashed out. Whether someone plays the money or cashes it out, they're still caught.

My favorite is when someone puts in $20 on top of it, spins once, and cashes the whole thing out. Still able to determine whose credits is whose.



It gives the thief some plausible deniability if caught. "What? I put money in spun some times and cashed out. I thought I won, isn't that how slot machines work? Sorry, didn't realize, here's the money."

Doubtful they will be arrested if they go this route. If they just cash out the ticket then it's a lot harder to deny that it isn't straight up theft.
Dodsferd
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September 26th, 2015 at 10:01:09 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

And? Elaborate more please with different scenarios.

Other than not forgetting in the first place. What's the best way for a player to protect himself from this?



First and foremost, never trust those stupid "reserved" signs. They're completely pointless.

If players aren't able to remember to cash out after being done at the machine, they'll be at the mercy of hoping that the Slots / Security / Surveillance teams are competent, and that the CCTV system is able to get the right angles.

Quote: AxelWolf


What happens if player leaves $100 behind, player B comes along and puts in $100, by the time security arrives all the money is all lost?


They still owe player A $100. If they refuse to pay it, they're banned until the have a change of heart. I've seen one specific instance where the casino took the stance to reimburse the player directly, and have the accused owe the casino instead.

Quote: AxelWolf


What happens if player leaves $100 behind, player B comes along and puts in $20 in plays hits a jackpot(on player A's credits and gets paid. Finally Security arrives.



I love this scenario. I've seen this happen. Whomever spun the reel, gets the jackpot. Player A would get their original volume of credits back, but they have no claim to the jackpot.

Quote: sabre

It gives the thief some plausible deniability if caught. "What? I put money in spun some times and cashed out. I thought I won, isn't that how slot machines work? Sorry, didn't realize, here's the money."

Doubtful they will be arrested if they go this route. If they just cash out the ticket then it's a lot harder to deny that it isn't straight up theft.



No it doesn't. Even after paying back the money, depending on circumstance, we may ban the player anyway if it's decided that they're predatory in nature.
This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.
sabre
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September 26th, 2015 at 10:09:49 PM permalink
Quote: Dodsferd

No it doesn't. Even after paying back the money, depending on circumstance, we may ban the player anyway if it's decided that they're predatory in nature.



Ok, if you think police are as likely to arrest someone who cashes out immediately vs someone who puts their own money on top, plays, then cashes out, then that's fine.
Dodsferd
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September 26th, 2015 at 10:12:00 PM permalink
Quote: sabre

Ok, if you think police are as likely to arrest someone who cashes out immediately vs someone who puts their own money on top, plays, then cashes out, then that's fine.



Who said anything about police arresting anyone? I'm talking about what the casino and what gaming will do. Do you have experience in these scenarios?
This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.
AxelWolf
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September 27th, 2015 at 3:37:29 AM permalink
Quote: Dodsferd

First and foremost, never trust those stupid "reserved" signs. They're completely pointless.

If players aren't able to remember to cash out after being done at the machine, they'll be at the mercy of hoping that the Slots / Security / Surveillance teams are competent, and that the CCTV system is able to get the right angles.


They still owe player A $100. If they refuse to pay it, they're banned until the have a change of heart. I've seen one specific instance where the casino took the stance to reimburse the player directly, and have the accused owe the casino instead.



I love this scenario. I've seen this happen. Whomever spun the reel, gets the jackpot. Player A would get their original volume of credits back, but they have no claim to the jackpot.



No it doesn't. Even after paying back the money, depending on circumstance, we may ban the player anyway if it's decided that they're predatory in nature.

Having your players card in is the best way to protect yourself.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
GWAE
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September 27th, 2015 at 4:33:53 AM permalink
I personally had 2 situations like this in the past and know of 1.

1. I put in $20, there were no credits on the machine. I spin once and lost but the machine gave me something like $84. Apparantly the person before me hit cash out with 84.40 (can't remember the exact number now) but the machine printed a voucher for .40. Casino security and state police surrounded me at the next machine j was playing and made me give the money back.

2. Wife walked away from machine without cashing out $100. Went back and it was gone. Went to security ND they pulled up a screen that showed the cashed out tickets. Called to someone else to cancel her ticket. Since it wasn't cashed yet they hand paid her. Not sure what happened to the person who tried to use her ticket.

3. My dad was in Vegas and had $40 in machine. He had to pee so he asked the lady next to him to watch machine. When he came back she told.him that as soon as he left a guy came by cashed out ticket and walked away. He told security and they said too bad and did nothing. Told him it happens all the time and to not leave money behind.
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zoobrew
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September 27th, 2015 at 5:12:05 AM permalink
"3. My dad was in Vegas and had $40 in machine. He had to pee so he asked the lady next to him to watch machine. When he came back she told.him that as soon as he left a guy came by cashed out ticket and walked away. He told security and they said too bad and did nothing. Told him it happens all the time and to not leave money behind."

Was your dad mad/upset with the lady for not defending his credits? This scenario is one reason that I usually say no when asked to watch a machine.
GWAE
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September 27th, 2015 at 6:45:24 AM permalink
Quote: zoobrew

"3. My dad was in Vegas and had $40 in machine. He had to pee so he asked the lady next to him to watch machine. When he came back she told.him that as soon as he left a guy came by cashed out ticket and walked away. He told security and they said too bad and did nothing. Told him it happens all the time and to not leave money behind."

Was your dad mad/upset with the lady for not defending his credits? This scenario is one reason that I usually say no when asked to watch a machine.



No I don't think so. I also agree. Anytime someone asks me I pretty much cash out and say, sorry I am leaving.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
tringlomane
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September 27th, 2015 at 9:43:02 AM permalink
Quote: GWAE



2. Wife walked away from machine without cashing out $100. Went back and it was gone. Went to security ND they pulled up a screen that showed the cashed out tickets. Called to someone else to cancel her ticket. Since it wasn't cashed yet they hand paid her. Not sure what happened to the person who tried to use her ticket.



This scenario happened to a guy at the bar in Tunica my last trip. But it was $390. Lucky he got it back.
Neutrino
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September 28th, 2015 at 7:38:56 PM permalink
Just curious is vulturing ultimate X considered stealing? If not, is there really that much difference between that and using a pre-existing balance in the machine?
RS
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September 28th, 2015 at 9:20:03 PM permalink
Quote: Neutrino

Just curious is vulturing ultimate X considered stealing? If not, is there really that much difference between that and using a pre-existing balance in the machine?



tringlomane
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September 28th, 2015 at 9:35:28 PM permalink
Quote: RS



One casino told me doing it was against their personal policy. But yeah, generally speaking, not the same. EV isn't money. You can obviously lose too.
beachbumbabs
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September 28th, 2015 at 9:40:36 PM permalink
Quote: Neutrino

Just curious is vulturing ultimate X considered stealing? If not, is there really that much difference between that and using a pre-existing balance in the machine?



There's all the difference in the world, IMO. Vulturing is selectively playing a game when it's in an advantage position. Whether that means multipliers, 10 O'clock on Rock Around the Clock slot, a 12K RF progressive on a .25 machine, buying out all the remaining tickets on a punchboard when it costs less than the value of remaining prizes, or a hundred other examples, those are opportunities deliberately provided and calculated into the overall return of the game.

The other's just stealing, unless it's free play loaded on the machine by the casino for you.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
BedWetterBetter
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October 6th, 2015 at 10:55:28 AM permalink
Once saw a middle aged guy playing a $1 slot machine with free play from a Bus Voucher. With about $14 left he just up and walked away. I was playing at another machine and kept an eye on the machine for about 10 minutes , he did not come back and nobody else sat on the machine. So I figured, it is up for grabs! I played the remaining credits and made $24. No security or angry person chased after me with a pitch fork, as far as I knew.

From my understanding, any credits left on the machine are surrendered unless a security guard is monitoring it.
Dieter
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October 6th, 2015 at 11:07:40 AM permalink
Quote: Neutrino

Just curious is vulturing ultimate X considered stealing? If not, is there really that much difference between that and using a pre-existing balance in the machine?



Is it stealing to start playing a machine with a high progressive meter, or to sit down at Rock Around the Clock at 10:30 instead of 2:00?

Yes, there is a difference between playing a machine with a higher-than-baseline expected return and cashing out a credit balance.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Ibeatyouraces
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October 6th, 2015 at 11:17:05 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Is it stealing to start playing a machine with a high progressive meter, or to sit down at Rock Around the Clock at 10:30 instead of 2:00?


I once jumped on the RAtC here at 11:00 and still LOST money!
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darkoz
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October 6th, 2015 at 11:31:14 AM permalink
The whole point of progressive meters is to announce and deliver information that can help gamblers make informed decisions. It may be one of the few Advantage Plays that the casino won't look down on -- at least the game developer designed the game to be vultured. If it was not supposed to be, then the meter info would be hidden or made a mystery amount.

And yeah, you can still lose money. That's the whole point.
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rxwine
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October 6th, 2015 at 12:01:02 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

The whole point of progressive meters is to announce and deliver information that can help gamblers make informed decisions.



I would guess it was designed like a lottery, where the jackpot grows it attracts more players.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
darkoz
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October 6th, 2015 at 12:10:53 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

I would guess it was designed like a lottery, where the jackpot grows it attracts more players.



I believe when the meter resets, a new hit location (when it pops is what me and my friends call it) is set. Its randomly set with a minimum and maximum that's possible. So if it must hit somewhere between $300 and $400 it might randomly pick $325 one time, then when someone reaches the pop point, it resets this time at $383. It's randomly chosen so when you vulture you don't really know if you are starting too early or too late, unless its reached really high like $398,

BTW - I watched enviously as a hustler tried to make a machine at $370 (must hit by $400) pop. I so wanted that machine. I finally left knowing he wasn't going to leave. I came back two hours later and he was still there, meter at $398. He gave the look of how he should have given me the machine. It popped before a few more spins and he informed me he had lost a grand going for the $398, lol.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Ibeatyouraces
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October 6th, 2015 at 12:15:47 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I believe when the meter resets, a new hit location (when it pops is what me and my friends call it) is set. Its randomly set with a minimum and maximum that's possible. So if it must hit somewhere between $300 and $400 it might randomly pick $325 one time, then when someone reaches the pop point, it resets this time at $383. It's randomly chosen so when you vulture you don't really know if you are starting too early or too late, unless its reached really high like $398,

BTW - I watched enviously as a hustler tried to make a machine at $370 (must hit by $400) pop. I so wanted that machine. I finally left knowing he wasn't going to leave. I came back two hours later and he was still there, meter at $398. He gave the look of how he should have given me the machine. It popped before a few more spins and he informed me he had lost a grand going for the $398, lol.


There were a few guys that get on them way too early at here too.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Dieter
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October 6th, 2015 at 12:35:33 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

I would guess it was designed like a lottery, where the jackpot grows it attracts more players.



You should see the vultures flock to a $0.25 10 line UTX BPD covered in "Next Hand 12X".
May the cards fall in your favor.
Dieter
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October 6th, 2015 at 12:41:14 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

he informed me he had lost a grand going for the $398, lol.



If it's moving 1c per $1 in, that's $2800 coin in for that movement... completely believable that variance on the main game would have him down that far.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Ibeatyouraces
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October 6th, 2015 at 12:44:28 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

You should see the vultures flock to a $0.25 10 line UTX BPD covered in "Next Hand 12X".


I'd just brick all 10!
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Ibeatyouraces
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October 6th, 2015 at 12:45:30 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

If it's moving 1c per $1 in, that's $2800 coin in for that movement... completely believable that variance on the main game would have him down that far.


most majors I've seen around here move at 1¢ per $4.00 coin in.
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darkoz
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October 6th, 2015 at 12:49:44 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

most majors I've seen around here move at 1¢ per $4.00 coin in.



I can reliably state the machine moves at five cents per $3.75 - That's max bet and I play max to make the machines pop faster. I'm impatient.
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Dieter
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October 6th, 2015 at 12:55:26 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

the machine moves at five cents per $3.75



$2100 coin in... harsh, but still believable.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Ibeatyouraces
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October 6th, 2015 at 12:56:42 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I can reliably state the machine moves at five cents per $3.75 - That's max bet and I play max to make the machines pop faster. I'm impatient.


Different market, different meter movements. Notice I said "around here"? Which means Detroit.
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sabre
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October 6th, 2015 at 1:18:08 PM permalink
Quote: BedWetterBetter

From my understanding, any credits left on the machine are surrendered unless a security guard is monitoring it.



Your understanding is wrong.
darkoz
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October 6th, 2015 at 1:51:45 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Different market, different meter movements. Notice I said "around here"? Which means Detroit.



Yeah, there are four machines in AC I am aware of.

The must hit by and meter movements are as follow.

must hit by $300 - generally resets about $150 - max bet of $2.50 moves meter by two pennies.

Must hit by $300 - generally resets about $150 - max bet of $5 moves meter by seven pennies.

Must hit by $400 - generally resets about $220 - max bet of $3.75 moves meter by five pennies.

These three are all by the same distributor.

There is another slot with a max bet of $3 and the movement is one penny. The major difference is the meter ALWAYS starts at exactly $400 and must hit by $500, I saw it hit at $420 and was quite surprised so with that one it can probably hit anywhere within the meter range.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Mission146
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October 6th, 2015 at 6:25:41 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

If it's moving 1c per $1 in, that's $2800 coin in for that movement... completely believable that variance on the main game would have him down that far.



That sounds optimistic. I don't believe I've encountered many (if any) must hit machines that have a meter that moves that fast. One of the fastest I've seen is one with Major and Minor that move $0.01, each, for every $1.60 coin in.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
darkoz
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October 6th, 2015 at 6:57:17 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

That sounds optimistic. I don't believe I've encountered many (if any) must hit machines that have a meter that moves that fast. One of the fastest I've seen is one with Major and Minor that move $0.01, each, for every $1.60 coin in.



Gotcha - Buffallo stampede (I'm not sure that's the exact name but the motif is stampeding buffalo) at Taj in AC moves seven cents per Five dollar max bet which makes it less than one penny per dollar.

The bonus rounds pay well too. But the regular spins are terrible, not uncommon to spin $5 and win twenty cents over and over again at that machine.
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Wizard
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October 6th, 2015 at 7:04:39 PM permalink
I've told this story before but a long time ago I was playing video poker (the $1 10/7 double bonus machines) at the Four Queens with a friend. He went to the bathroom and asked me to guard his machine.

While he was gone somebody sat at his machine, put in $1, made a max $5 bet, lost, and cashed out the full amount of credits, which was about $50.

This was before TITO and as soon as I heard the first token hit the tray I woke from my machine-induced trance and said something to the effect of "WTF, that isn't your money!" Then my friend came over and called security.

Security came over right away and then somebody in a suit. The suit listened to everybody's version. The guy trying to steal the credits claimed that he didn't know there were already credits in the machine and he thought he won. There was a garbage hand on the screen, I might add.

To make a long story short, the suit trespassed the guy, which I 100% agree with. The Four Queens absolutely did the right thing, and I deserve fair criticism for being an awful guard of the machine.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
chaunceyb3
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October 6th, 2015 at 7:18:05 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Gotcha - Buffallo stampede (I'm not sure that's the exact name but the motif is stampeding buffalo) at Taj in AC moves seven cents per Five dollar max bet which makes it less than one penny per dollar.

The bonus rounds pay well too. But the regular spins are terrible, not uncommon to spin $5 and win twenty cents over and over again at that machine.



My confederates must be competing with you then. They love those Everi/Multimedia Games cabinets (Thundering Herd, Blazin' Streak, Haunted House After Dark, etc.) because the meter movement is reasonably fast.

Not enough to justify waiting around. A very weak AP play in my book, but those teams of Middle Eastern/Italian guys will camp out 24 hours a day at Taj waiting for those machines, Keepin' It Hot (which also has a fast meter), Cash Eruption, etc.
darkoz
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October 6th, 2015 at 7:26:28 PM permalink
Quote: chaunceyb3

My confederates must be competing with you then. They love those Everi/Multimedia Games cabinets (Thundering Herd, Blazin' Streak, Haunted House After Dark, etc) because the meter movement is reasonably fast.

Not enough to justify waiting around. A very weak AP play in my book, but those teams of Middle Eastern/Italian guys will camp out 24 hours a day at Taj waiting for those machines, Keepin' It Hot (which also has a fast meter), Cash Eruption, etc.



Thanks, yeah, Thundering Herd. I do know the Turkish guys although we don't really talk. You're right, they are hard to miss. I'm sure they know me by face too.

But it is a weak play and its not something I concentrate on. I will usually combine it with another play, for example trying to make points for one of the specials and IF the meter is high, I go for it. This way if I don't pop the meter, I have the other aspect of the AP move to reimburse me. Of course, when it pops and I achieve my other goal then I'm all hoopin and hollerin.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
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