Is Being a Pro Gambler Worth It?
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For instance, the pro poker players I see on TV seem very bored most of the time. In an interview Chip Reese gave the year before he died, he said poker bored him to tears even though he knew he could win great amounts of money if he played on a yearly basis. I was reading about a successful BJ team that disbanded last year because they got burned out on the lifestyle. They got tired of the charade of keeping up a front and dealing with gambling addicts all the time, who were self destructing right in front of them.
I love going to Vegas for vacation, but living there would be another matter. When I was in college in the late 70's, I went to Ft lauderdale for spring break a few times and thought, wouldn't it be great to live there. So thats what I did and it was horrible. When you're there on vacation you don't see all the homeless, all the drug addicts and all the crime. You also don't know what its like to live in a hot climate until you do it. Its awful, you never get used to sweating all time when outdoors. It would be the same with Vegas, I think. If you HAD to go to the casinos every day to make a living, it would soon turn to drudgery. The place you loved to visit would soon become the place you hate.
And what do pro gamblers produce? Nothing. They've basically learned to win at a carnival game, be it cards or dice or whatever. They contribute nothing to society. It would be a strange way to make a living and not what most people think it is, I believe.
"Pro" BJ players, now there's a laugh. It's more of a state of mind than anything else. I tire of those who say they "used To" beat the hell out of the tables, but it's just too hard to do it today. Sniffle sniffle. My heart cries for them. If they're that good then they'd find ways to do it, period. I thought I'd never make it in my profession, but one day I woke up and said I was going to do it regardless of the incredible obstacles in my way. People like SW and AC who claim such a fate and then go into the gaming sales business to cover their inequities make me sick.
Video poker "pros" are a strange breed. I know lots and lots of regular players from my years trying to beat the machines, and I can name only one who doesn't either work or teach or sell a bundle of things to make money from, and even he sells 2 books. In fact, most of those that I've talked to that live in LV who say they are pros can't win at vp but say they win at poker or sports betting. I play a lot but I don't live there and could never do that because I wouldn't be able to control my impulses. I imagine playing that game every day takes a lot more people down than we'd ever want to know about.
Sportsbetting pros to me actually exist. I'm sure many do it on-line and in casinos, but most of those that I've chatted with seem to really know what they're doing. They just didn't seem to have the same monkey on their backs that all the others who claim they are pros had.
Quote: JerryLoganI used to think that pro poker players were the cat's meow, until I started looking into maybe going for it. Then I was alerted to the very deceiving and misleadng ways these folks survive. If it weren't for sponsors most would be gone. If it weren't for commercialization most of them would be flipping burgers.
The variance in poker if you play it every day is terrible. They say mathematically a player can go a lifetime and never have a winning period. Its not likely to happen but its possible. About 5 years ago Doyle Brunson had a period of about 4 months where he didn't win anything, he never got a winning hand. He said for the first time in his career he was thinking about retiring. Look at this years WSOP final table, its all new kids under 30. The old players got bad beat after bad beat and didn't make it. I don't like poker, too much is left to blind dumb luck.
Quote: JerryLogan
"Pro" BJ players, now there's a laugh. It's more of a state of mind than anything else. I tire of those who say they "used To" beat the hell out of the tables, but it's just too hard to do it today. Sniffle sniffle. My heart cries for them. If they're that good then they'd find ways to do it, period. I thought I'd never make it in my profession, but one day I woke up and said I was going to do it regardless of the incredible obstacles in my way. People like SW and AC who claim such a fate and then go into the gaming sales business to cover their inequities make me sick.
I forget where I read it, but I did read the "truth" behind being a pro BJ player and what you see on TV are different. Instead of staying at the nice places you sleep six to a room at a cheapo motel. No guarantee of winning but a guarantee of being hassled if you do. You had better be on a trustworthy team or else you will get ripped off. The lifestyle attracts alcoholics and cokeheads who you will have to room with and count on. Even Ken Uston's team lived like this. Then when you do win you get to take the chance of being robbed or shaken down by the IRS. Dealers hate you since tipping is not encouraged to professionals since it can mean the difference between eating chicken or feathers.
Then like anything else it takes time and concentration. Day after dull day playing 6-8 hours. No medical or LTD, no paid vacation.
It might be fun for some time, but better as a part-time way to make some extra cash.
Quote: JerryLoganIf it weren't for sponsors most would be gone. If it weren't for commercialization most of them would be flipping burgers. And if it weren't for the opportunity to play each other most of them would be broke.
Funny, you could say the same thing about race car drivers, track and field athletes, pro cyclists and even NFL players.
Quote: AZDuffmanThe lifestyle attracts alcoholics and cokeheads who you will have to room with and count on. Even Ken Uston's team lived like this.
Uston's team travelled EU in a VW bus and slept in bug infested hostels. The lifestyle also attracts problem gamblers who will win money on your team, and then stop at the craps tables on the way out and give it all back. Poker players have to endure abuse from other players that will never make it to TV. They also have to sit and watch players abuse
dealers to the point of tears. A lot of former pro's end up in sports betting because its clean and somewhat sophisticated and you can control your life a lot easier.
Quote: NareedFunny, you could say the same thing about race car drivers, track and field athletes, pro cyclists and even NFL players.
And pro golfers. What would Tiger Woods net worth have been without sponsers.
I'm sure no one ever views card counting as a career. Team play exposes you to reverse tip pooling: you share in the bad play of others.
VP? Whats that guy in Vegas... been playing VP for ten years and still ain't hit a Royal!! Not once!!
Beware turning anything you love into your job! A job always involves the 4 letter word 'work' and the next thing you know you start hating what you used to love.
Quote: EvenBobAnybody read Mike 'The Mouth' Matusow's book 'Check-Raising the Devil'? Talk about drugs and alcohol and bi-polar. He's the poster boy for everything that can go wrong with being a pro gambler. He even did 6 months on a drug charge a few years ago. The off the wall nut case you see on TV? Its not an act.
Who was the poker player who won really big in a tourney, then lost it all betting sports---FROM THE COUNTY JAIL?!
Quote: EvenBobAnd pro golfers. What would Tiger Woods net worth have been without sponsers.
Still plenty enough for you or I to live on.
I hadn't heard of that ... but it sounds like quite a lifestyle. Only in Vegas would someone be allowed to phone a sportsbook from the county lockup.Quote: AZDuffmanWho was the poker player who won really big in a tourney, then lost it all betting sports---FROM THE COUNTY JAIL?!
I'd much rather do what I do now. Work at a job that makes a difference in the world and helps people, and use some of that money to gamble with.
Quote: EvenBobThe variance in poker if you play it every day is terrible.
it doesn't matter if they play once a month or 8 days a week, good players can minimize their variance.
Quote:They say mathematically a player can go a lifetime and never have a winning period.
in the long run good players win and bad players lose, short run anything can happen
Quote:Look at this years WSOP final table, its all new kids under 30.
who's to say those guys aren't the next greats? did you think when MJ retired from the bulls a guy like Kobe would never come around?
Quote:I don't like poker, too much is left to blind dumb luck.
bad poker players blame their losses on luck
Great post. There is a way to beat every game. It is a constant battle. The good news is you get to pick the game and pick the battle.
Quote: FinsRuleI love sports, and I've had a couple of jobs involving sports, and it definitely takes some of the fun away. Just as I'm sure working at a casino would take away some of the fun of gambling, and gambling for a job just doesn't sound fun at all.
I'd much rather do what I do now. Work at a job that makes a difference in the world and helps people, and use some of that money to gamble with.
I'm sure it is. There is a story on a craps website where a craps deler is with his buddy at a casino. Buddy wants to "learn how to play craps." Dealer says he works craps, lives craps, and is sick of craps. Buddy talks him into it so he takes his buddy's $200 or whatever and says, "$200 across."
Next roll:
"SEVEN-LINE AWAY"
Reply: "That's hopw you play!"
For me, that's not a bad way to earn money if you have absolutely no prospects in life and no way to find a job. But that's about it. Royals would be under the W2-G limit. You would have to be extremely disciplined and not succumb to all of the other pressures to throw your money away or use poor judgment due to alcohol or chasing hunches.
Counting in Blackjack works as well but I don't think it's a full time living either due to the heat.
Quote: iamthepushbad poker players blame their losses on luck
Just last night I was watching an old tournament at the Bellagio that had some kid and Mike the Mouth as the last 2 players. The kid won not because he was a better player, he wasn't. He had the best cards. If Mike had those cards he would have won. Tournaments prove nothing except whose luckiest that week.
In poker, luck plays a much bigger part of the game when it's down to two players.Quote: EvenBobJust last night I was watching an old tournament at the Bellagio that had some kid and Mike the Mouth as the last 2 players. The kid won not because he was a better player, he wasn't. He had the best cards. If Mike had those cards he would have won. Tournaments prove nothing except whose luckiest that week.
But getting to that point, skill plays a much bigger part.
Quote: boymimboI am thinking that the best place to make money is in professional poker. Yep, you can count cards in blackjack, you can attempt to control dice in craps, or you can find VP at an definite advantage and use you player's card to give you an additional bonus. Still, even at a FPDW with a 0.76% advantage, you're sitting in a dingy casino. At 600 hands / hour at $1.25/hand, you are looking at about $6/hour in income and certainly you can barely eat and drink for free with the comps you would earn.
For me, that's not a bad way to earn money if you have absolutely no prospects in life and no way to find a job. But that's about it. Royals would be under the W2-G limit. You would have to be extremely disciplined and not succumb to all of the other pressures to throw your money away or use poor judgment due to alcohol or chasing hunches.
Counting in Blackjack works as well but I don't think it's a full time living either due to the heat.
It's not just FPDW. Some of the players are good at manufacturing positive plays out of what's available to them at the higher denominations for their profitting. One player is a wiz at finding ways to keep on profitting from a variety of games and denominations, and some don't really mind sitting for crazy numbers of hours grinding away at the FPDW games. In 2 of those 3 cases it's the almighty slot card that truly makes all the difference in the world.
Quote: EvenBobJust last night I was watching an old tournament at the Bellagio that had some kid and Mike the Mouth as the last 2 players. The kid won not because he was a better player, he wasn't. He had the best cards. If Mike had those cards he would have won. Tournaments prove nothing except whose luckiest that week.
they did make it to the end of the tournament. the tournament had to end. like i said earlier, good players are going to win more than they lose, be it hands in a particular game or games in a particular time period.
luck has nothing to do with ring games. if you a using proper bank roll management, and are a good player, you won't go broke. (the 2 keys are brm, and good player. if you take either one of those out, you let variance take over)
i'm not sure if i'd call it luck but getting good cards at the end of a tournament doesn't hurt. but getting good cards isn't enough, you have to be able to know what to do with them.
another thing, if we're near the bubble during a tournament I'm not playing (90% of the time) to ensure I get paid. People that bubble out blame their loss on bad luck, i call it stupidity.
poker doesn't require skill to win. you could put a potted plant in a seat and deal it cards face up, it could win, the plant doesn't have good luck or the plant got lucky. i can sit down at a table and tell you within 2 orbits who knows how to play and who doesn't.
Getting the best cards at the end is everything. They bet every hand, no matter what they have. The cards at the end make or break every tournament win. The only way the underdog can beat the chip leader at the end is with good cards. Bluffing at that point is useless.
Quote: EvenBob{{i'm not sure if i'd call it luck but getting good cards at the end of a tournament doesn't hurt}}
Getting the best cards at the end is everything. They bet every hand, no matter what they have.
Have you ever watched a tournament live? There's a lot of editing that goes into televised poker. It's my experience (as a player and live spectator) that they do not bet every hand. Even heads up at the end, players will fold in the small blind if they don't have a starting hand that is in the top 40-50% of possibilities.
Quote: EvenBobTournaments prove nothing except whose luckiest that week.
Is there perfect play in tournaments from beginning to end for all players? I imagine for that to be true, such would have to be the case.
Quote: rdw4potusHave you ever watched a tournament live? There's a lot of editing that goes into televised poker. It's my experience (as a player and live spectator) that they do not bet every hand. Even heads up at the end, players will fold in the small blind if they don't have a starting hand that is in the top 40-50% of possibilities.
Never seen a tournament live. I don't like poker, I played it for awhile. The players at every level tend to be rude and ill mannered. They mistreat each other and the dealer. Especially the dealer. I watch it for entertainment, because I'll watch anything from Vegas.
Quote: rdw4potusHave you ever watched a tournament live? There's a lot of editing that goes into televised poker. It's my experience (as a player and live spectator) that they do not bet every hand. Even heads up at the end, players will fold in the small blind if they don't have a starting hand that is in the top 40-50% of possibilities.
+1
iirc, last years final table lasted 14 hours before they got heads up. tv time final table was 2.5 hours including commercials.
You can't manufacture a positive pay out of a video poker machine. You can take advantage of promotions and higher than average jackpots.
Quote: boymimboThe games at the higher level have advantages at best of .17% at the $1.00 level meaning that even if they pull in $3,000 of action per hour, they are still pulling in about $5.10/hour plus the card action. Typical casinos offer .25% cash back on the player's card (.10 / $40) so add another $7.50/hour in comps which will pay for RFB at a cheap hotel. So maybe you live in LA or Phoenix, drive in to Vegas, play for a couple of weeks straight going from dive to dive, playing 12 hours a day, grinding it out, and ending up with $840. Yikes. But at the $1 level every Royal that you hit will be subject to IRS reporting and then you are paying taxes. Worth it? No.
You can't manufacture a positive pay out of a video poker machine. You can take advantage of promotions and higher than average jackpots.
Six in one, half dozen in the other. I believe everyone understands that a "play" is made out of machine EV (say 9/6 JoB @ 99.54%), cash back (we'll go with .25%), current promotions like 3X points (.50%), typical monthly mailers for free-play & gifts (~.3%)and comps (again ~.25%). We now have a 100.84% play. Typically, these occur at the HIGHER denominations like $5 through $25 singly play or $1/$2/$5 3/5/10 play. I don't know how many hours they'd be playing but they claim it works. The one other fellow says he plays less than 1/10th or something like that what these guys do, and not always on these type machines, and makes much more than them.
I play for fun and self-torture.
Blackjack is nice but the edge from straight counting is miniscule. Add in any camouflage or compute your time bouncing from joint to joint and your returns diminish significantly. Sports betting reveals many more HUGE advantages, the people who bet a large amount of games per week arent the true winners. Instead you have more advanced players profiting on a smaller game selection each with a larger discrepancy in the line. Take for instance a situation with San Diego locked up into a playoff spot and a 21 point favorite in the final 3 weeks of the regular season vs. a division rival sitting on a 7/6 record. Obviously this line is way off from what would be expected.
Players who make a living at gaming exist... they are either riding high on variance or keeping their eyes open for more than one opportunity.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe ones that say it cant be done are the ones that have tried once or twice and negative variance got the best of them.
Thanks aces for your post, especially this part, because it pretty much describes me. After losing more money than I care to admit attempting to count cards, I realized that the work involved just didn't justify the small benefit to be gained, and I had talents and abilities in other areas that I was better off developing.
That's only my story, of course...I don't want to discourage anyone from giving a shot at being a pro...and god bless those that are.
Quote: IbeatyouracesBut if your goal is to become a pro, don't let anybody or anything stop you. The ones that say it cant be done are the ones that have tried once or twice and negative variance got the best of them.
Y'know what, I agree with the angry one, that's damn good advice. No matter WHAT you decide to do, if it's worth doing there will be someone telling you that it's a hard way to make a living. Doctor? That's tough. TV Producer? Tough. Used Car Salesman? That's a tough way to make a living. Plumbing Contractor? that's tough, getting called out on Thanksgiving.
If you want to try it, try it. Everyone who's made it at doing anything worth doing has succeeded in the face of someone saying it was a tough way to make a living.
I don't know a lot about other personalities in gaming, but in the video poker scene everyone who is touted as being a "pro" all seem to have an angle that covers their asses when it rains. Bob Dancer works and sells and sells and teaches for a fee. Jean Scott sells and sells and is paid to speak, and lives with a rich old man. Rob Singer has 2 books and his wife works. Dan Paymar sells and sells and charges for advice. Skip Hughes sells and has a pay-for newsletter. Even many of those whom I've met in LV playing all have something else going for them, like the guys and gals who play on "teams" and get paid for it. It's not so B&W.
Quote: JerryLoganand their rotted out teeth tell the story of years with no dental insurance.
dental insurance has nothing to do with brushing your teeth.
are you talking about teeth cleaning? having the dentist clean your teeth twice a year isn't going to cut it. you need to brush those bad boys twice a day
Quote: MoscaY'know what, I agree with the angry one, that's damn good advice. No matter WHAT you decide to do, if it's worth doing there will be someone telling you that it's a hard way to make a living. Doctor? That's tough. TV Producer? Tough. Used Car Salesman? That's a tough way to make a living. Plumbing Contractor? that's tough, getting called out on Thanksgiving.
If you want to try it, try it. Everyone who's made it at doing anything worth doing has succeeded in the face of someone saying it was a tough way to make a living.
I suspect the people who really eke out a living from gambling are people we never hear from. They aren't on gambling forums and don't care to be. You have to be crafty to beat a casino game, and that craftiness surely extends to keeping what you do to yourself.
Quote: EvenBobI suspect the people who really eke out a living from gambling are people we never hear from. They aren't on gambling forums and don't care to be. You have to be crafty to beat a casino game, and that craftiness surely extends to keeping what you do to yourself.
I've only ever met one person who claimed to make a living from gambling. And I only heard about it from his wife. She said that when the family had lived in Reno, he supported the family by gambling at the casinos. She didn't work, and they have 2 kids. They had enough money to own a home, live in Reno, and saved up enough to move to Phoenix and start a business here.
When I asked him what it was he played in Reno as a professional gambler, he said craps and roulette. When I asked what kinds of bets he made, or if he had a system, he said, yes, he had a system. And that's all he would ever tell me. No specifics whatsoever.
Whether or not he really had a system, I don't know. And, quite frankly, I guess I don't care. I don't believe he really did, and who knows what he was really doing to support his family. Maybe he made some lucky bets. Maybe he was working on the side, and just told his family he was gambling to support them. I don't know. But it does make sense that if someone was a professional gambler, they wouldn't go around advertising it.
Quote: konceptumMaybe he made some lucky bets. Maybe he was working on the side, and just told his family he was gambling to support them. I don't know. But it does make sense that if someone was a professional gambler, they wouldn't go around advertising it.
Or maybe he was really doing it. There are people make a living gambling, there always have been. Thorp didn't invent card counting, people were making a living at it before he wrote his book. Some of them begged him not to write it, but his ego won out..
in the midst of all that i also graduated college in 3.5yrs and a summer even after switching majors from statistics and actuarial sciences to accounting. i regret making that switch but i was too distracted with gambling to focus on my studies so switched to an easier major.
Quote: EvenBobOr maybe he was really doing it. There are people make a living gambling, there always have been. Thorp didn't invent card counting, people were making a living at it before he wrote his book. Some of them begged him not to write it, but his ego won out..
I believe there are some professional gamblers. I do not believe any of them make a living off of that and that alone, unless there's proof of that fact and that'll never happen. It seems "cool" to bring up the mystique of making a living by being a professional gambler and some actually believe the BS. Ask for proof, however, and all you'll get is excuses followed by theory.
Those people who are said to be pro gamblers but not wanting anyone to know about it or them? That's because they lose.
