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Neutrino
Neutrino
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August 4th, 2015 at 3:08:58 PM permalink
Dear wizard, I hope I'm not just speaking for myself here regarding dissatisfaction for this massive change. So if I'm predicting correctly, in a few days where everyone understands what exactly they changed, nobody will like the changes, at all. This just happened today, 8-4-2015, 6 hours ago before this post.

I know you offer mediation services for Bovada to those who signed up via your link, which I am one. So please consider this as a request for mass mediation. A request from many of us, hopefully all of us, to ask bovada to reverse their change in bonus system.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, what's this new update?

Well, first of all, nothing positive. There was nothing in this change that was positive, maybe with the exception some people may like the new graphics better.

There are 2 significant negative changes:

1: Your cash balance is now held hostage by lost bonuses' (bonai?) wagering requirement.

2: You can not use your existing cash balance to claim bonuses. You must make fresh deposits. This absolutely capitalizes on Bovada's already astronomical fees. 4.9% on deposits! and $50 per withdrawal. You will incur significantly more fees this way.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Let me discuss these changes using examples to show you why they're even worse in practice than what they look on paper.

#1 Suppose you have a current balance of $1000. Which is $900 in cash + $100 in bonus. This $100 in bonus is now called "locked funds" and will be released only after you finish the entire wagering requirement. Let's say the wager requirement is $8000, and you bet $10 per hand. Previously, if you are on a bad luck streak and lose $200 ($100 cash + $100 bonus), you no longer have any bonus amount remaining and therefore you don't have to complete the unfinished wagering requirement, because obviously, you don't have any bonus amount left.

Now once you reach $800 (meaning you were unlucky and lost $200), THE REST OF YOUR CASH BALANCE IS HELD HOSTAGE TO THE BONUS WAGERING. Meaning, your balance is now $700 cash + $100 locked bonus, and you must use your pre-existing cash that has nothing to do with the bonus whatsoever to complete the WR if you want to unlock the bonus. So, instead of losing "$100 of my own money + $100 bonus" on a bad luck streak, now if you are on a bad luck streak you lose "$200 of your own money" and the bonus is still locked. This change doesn't sound fair to me at all.



#2 Suppose you have a current balance of $1000, and you would like to redeem a 100% match bonus up to $100. Previously, the system would deduct $100 from your balance and use that to redeem the bonus. So you would end up with $900 cash balance + $200 bonus balance.

Now bovada will ask you to deposit $100 (which is actually closer to $110 on your bank account because of 4.9% bovada fee, 3% foreign currency conversion fee imposed by the bank because Bovada uses Chinese processors, 2% extra conversion fee because Bovada makes the customer eat "exchange rate fluctuation" which tbh is just a conversion fee the processor charges Bovada) Thus, you will end up Spending $110. and have a $1100 cash balance + $100 locked bonus.

That's not all. Withdrawals fees are $50 per transaction (1 free per month, but now you'll be cashing out way more frequently so you'll definitely end up paying the fees). But here's the issue. Previously, when you cash out, you're paying the withdrawal fees on winnings. Now, you're paying the withdrawal fees on YOUR DEPOSITS as well. $50 to withdraw $3000 is the standard fee. Which means each $100 deposit will end up costing you extra $1.6 on the withdraw, that's not even to mention your withdrawals will be much slower now because the 1 check per week rule still applies, but now you're cashing out deposits which is slowing down your cashout of winnings. And your 1 free withdrawal per month will significantly lose value because you're mostly going to be cashing out your deposits.

Once again, this is WAY WORSE in practice than what it looks on paper. Instead of something like "60 x $50 in winnings cashout", you'll probably end up with something like a "20x $100 in deposit + 20x $50 in winnings cashout".


The result here being, now whenever you are forced to deposit in order to redeem a bonus, for every $100 you deposit you will pay $11.6 in fees. Previously, this $100 is directly deducted from your cash balance and there is (obviously) no fees whatsoever. How on earth is 11.6% fee supposed to be fair to the player? and it's added for no reason?

This also brings me to a question on just principle and not the % fees. Why the hell does the customer need to deposit additional funds when he's already got a cash balance? (usually a large balance because of buffer for sports bets and poker). Sadly, I think the answer is probably "we don't care because this change isn't affecting us since you're the ones paying the fees not us."


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So Wizard, I kindly ask that you represent all of us to negotiate with Bovada to end this ridiculous change. At this point it may sound like this is my own opinion. But knowing the nature of the change I just can't imagine anyone liking it, and I know once people figure out what I've already seen, many people will complain. So please, do us all a favor and start a massive scale mediation case with Bovada.

Thank you.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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August 4th, 2015 at 3:17:06 PM permalink
Does Bovada still have the practice mode, I
can't find it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Neutrino
Neutrino
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August 4th, 2015 at 3:20:41 PM permalink
afaik no, but betsoft (one of their providers) provides public accessible practice modes on some places.\

The other, RTG, I suppose the only way to practice now is register on another RTG site and use the practice mode.


The change of practice mode you mentioned happened last Monday. The bonus change happened today.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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August 7th, 2015 at 4:30:37 AM permalink
Quote: Neutrino

Dear wizard, I hope I'm not just speaking for myself here regarding dissatisfaction for this massive change. So if I'm predicting correctly, in a few days where everyone understands what exactly they changed, nobody will like the changes, at all. This just happened today, 8-4-2015, 6 hours ago before this post.

I know you offer mediation services for Bovada to those who signed up via your link, which I am one. So please consider this as a request for mass mediation. A request from many of us, hopefully all of us, to ask bovada to reverse their change in bonus system.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, what's this new update?

Well, first of all, nothing positive. There was nothing in this change that was positive, maybe with the exception some people may like the new graphics better.

There are 2 significant negative changes:

1: Your cash balance is now held hostage by lost bonuses' (bonai?) wagering requirement.

2: You can not use your existing cash balance to claim bonuses. You must make fresh deposits. This absolutely capitalizes on Bovada's already astronomical fees. 4.9% on deposits! and $50 per withdrawal. You will incur significantly more fees this way.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Let me discuss these changes using examples to show you why they're even worse in practice than what they look on paper.

#1 Suppose you have a current balance of $1000. Which is $900 in cash + $100 in bonus. This $100 in bonus is now called "locked funds" and will be released only after you finish the entire wagering requirement. Let's say the wager requirement is $8000, and you bet $10 per hand. Previously, if you are on a bad luck streak and lose $200 ($100 cash + $100 bonus), you no longer have any bonus amount remaining and therefore you don't have to complete the unfinished wagering requirement, because obviously, you don't have any bonus amount left.

Now once you reach $800 (meaning you were unlucky and lost $200), THE REST OF YOUR CASH BALANCE IS HELD HOSTAGE TO THE BONUS WAGERING. Meaning, your balance is now $700 cash + $100 locked bonus, and you must use your pre-existing cash that has nothing to do with the bonus whatsoever to complete the WR if you want to unlock the bonus. So, instead of losing "$100 of my own money + $100 bonus" on a bad luck streak, now if you are on a bad luck streak you lose "$200 of your own money" and the bonus is still locked. This change doesn't sound fair to me at all.



#2 Suppose you have a current balance of $1000, and you would like to redeem a 100% match bonus up to $100. Previously, the system would deduct $100 from your balance and use that to redeem the bonus. So you would end up with $900 cash balance + $200 bonus balance.

Now bovada will ask you to deposit $100 (which is actually closer to $110 on your bank account because of 4.9% bovada fee, 3% foreign currency conversion fee imposed by the bank because Bovada uses Chinese processors, 2% extra conversion fee because Bovada makes the customer eat "exchange rate fluctuation" which tbh is just a conversion fee the processor charges Bovada) Thus, you will end up Spending $110. and have a $1100 cash balance + $100 locked bonus.

That's not all. Withdrawals fees are $50 per transaction (1 free per month, but now you'll be cashing out way more frequently so you'll definitely end up paying the fees). But here's the issue. Previously, when you cash out, you're paying the withdrawal fees on winnings. Now, you're paying the withdrawal fees on YOUR DEPOSITS as well. $50 to withdraw $3000 is the standard fee. Which means each $100 deposit will end up costing you extra $1.6 on the withdraw, that's not even to mention your withdrawals will be much slower now because the 1 check per week rule still applies, but now you're cashing out deposits which is slowing down your cashout of winnings. And your 1 free withdrawal per month will significantly lose value because you're mostly going to be cashing out your deposits.

Once again, this is WAY WORSE in practice than what it looks on paper. Instead of something like "60 x $50 in winnings cashout", you'll probably end up with something like a "20x $100 in deposit + 20x $50 in winnings cashout".


The result here being, now whenever you are forced to deposit in order to redeem a bonus, for every $100 you deposit you will pay $11.6 in fees. Previously, this $100 is directly deducted from your cash balance and there is (obviously) no fees whatsoever. How on earth is 11.6% fee supposed to be fair to the player? and it's added for no reason?

This also brings me to a question on just principle and not the % fees. Why the hell does the customer need to deposit additional funds when he's already got a cash balance? (usually a large balance because of buffer for sports bets and poker). Sadly, I think the answer is probably "we don't care because this change isn't affecting us since you're the ones paying the fees not us."


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So Wizard, I kindly ask that you represent all of us to negotiate with Bovada to end this ridiculous change. At this point it may sound like this is my own opinion. But knowing the nature of the change I just can't imagine anyone liking it, and I know once people figure out what I've already seen, many people will complain. So please, do us all a favor and start a massive scale mediation case with Bovada.

Thank you.

Welcome back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH-B6A04iK0 (-;


Thanks for the update on Bovada. Its very detailed and good(bad changes) information. I haven't logged on for a few weeks. I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more attention. I'm sure Mike is looking into it and gathering facts before he comments.

Let me ask this question. If you make a $100 deposit and get a %100 bonus (you now have $200 with wagering x amount of requirements). Are you saying that if you lose the $200 BEFORE meeting your wagering requirements that your wagering requirements still remain? So even if you deposit more money you would be on the hook to Finnish the old WR's?

Also you are telling us they hold your entire balance hostage until you Finnish all wagering requirements?

And now to even use a bonus, you must make a brand new deposit?

It almost sounds as if they are planning on doing away with one account for the casino, poker and sports book and will have to separate them. Think about it, what poker player/sports bettor is going risk having his entire poker/sports BR in jeopardy by just using some $100-150 %100% bonus?

If I understand everything correctly, Bovada will have went from one of the best casinos online....to the worst casinos online over night.

Has Slots.lv made the same changes?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
BillP73
BillP73
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August 7th, 2015 at 3:14:58 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Welcome back. (-;


Thanks for the update on Bovada. Its very detailed and good(bad changes) information. I haven't logged on for a few weeks. I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more attention. I'm sure Mike is looking into it and gathering facts before he comments.

Let me ask this question. If you make a $100 deposit and get a %100 bonus (you now have $200 with wagering x amount of requirements). Are you saying that if you lose the $200 BEFORE meeting your wagering requirements that your wagering requirements still remain? So even if you deposit more money you would be on the hook to Finnish the old WR's?

Also you are telling us they hold your entire balance hostage until you Finnish all wagering requirements?

And now to even use a bonus, you must make a brand new deposit?

It almost sounds as if they are planning on doing away with one account for the casino, poker and sports book and will have to separate them. Think about it, what poker player/sports bettor is going risk having his entire poker/sports BR in jeopardy by just using some $100-150 %100% bonus?

If I understand everything correctly, Bovada will have went from one of the best casinos online....to the worst casinos online over night.

Has Slots.lv made the same changes?



Yes, you've got it.

You must deposit to take advantage of the bonus. In essence, there are no "casino chips" now, you bring your entire bankroll into the game. And if my losses exceed the amount of the deposit + bonus amount...there is still a rollover requirement if I have a balance. I have run into that both times to this point. (Losing has become oddly frequent when playing textbook blackjack. Talking over a dozen consecutive losing sessions at this point)

How that affects withdrawals if I attempted one, I'm not entirely sure at this point.

Either way, there's absolutely nothing positive about the casino changes for the player.
gringo
gringo
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August 7th, 2015 at 5:32:17 PM permalink
Neutrino,

Thanks for bringing this up. I thought it was just me who hated the change. Glad I am not the only one... and great post BTW, with all the details spelled out correctly.

The bonus system change is ridiculous, with deposit requirement to claim any bonus and full rollover requirement even when losing more than deposited.

I guess, if they do not go back to old system, I will just take my cash and leave.

Also, I had accumulated bunch of blackjack weekends bonuses and they disappeared with the new system. Writing to bovada to reinstate them.

Gringo
Neutrino
Neutrino
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August 7th, 2015 at 7:44:48 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Welcome back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH-B6A04iK0 (-;


Thanks for the update on Bovada. Its very detailed and good(bad changes) information. I haven't logged on for a few weeks. I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more attention. I'm sure Mike is looking into it and gathering facts before he comments.

Let me ask this question. If you make a $100 deposit and get a %100 bonus (you now have $200 with wagering x amount of requirements). Are you saying that if you lose the $200 BEFORE meeting your wagering requirements that your wagering requirements still remain? So even if you deposit more money you would be on the hook to Finnish the old WR's?

Also you are telling us they hold your entire balance hostage until you Finnish all wagering requirements?

And now to even use a bonus, you must make a brand new deposit?

It almost sounds as if they are planning on doing away with one account for the casino, poker and sports book and will have to separate them. Think about it, what poker player/sports bettor is going risk having his entire poker/sports BR in jeopardy by just using some $100-150 %100% bonus?

If I understand everything correctly, Bovada will have went from one of the best casinos online....to the worst casinos online over night.

Has Slots.lv made the same changes?



Thanks for the welcome! What a fitting video haha.

Now for the questions.

Quote: AxelWolf

Let me ask this question. If you make a $100 deposit and get a %100 bonus (you now have $200 with wagering x amount of requirements). Are you saying that if you lose the $200 BEFORE meeting your wagering requirements that your wagering requirements still remain? So even if you deposit more money you would be on the hook to Finnish the old WR's?



Exactly, completely correct. In that case, what would happen is you end up with 'Prebonus Balance - $300' as your cash balance and $100 locked bonus that is still tied to the WR of the "already lost bonus". The -$300 here is composed of -$200 of your unlucky streak and -$100 of the locked bonus. Even if you deposit more money, the old WR stays.

Quote: AxelWolf

Also you are telling us they hold your entire balance hostage until you Finnish all wagering requirements?



You could probably still cash out the pre existing portion of your balance. You can also "forfeit your bonus" BUT BEWARE, cash amounts are played before bonus balance, forfeiting a bonus erases the locked bonus but once again, your cash balance was lost first. It is as if you had a $-200 losing streak playing with completely your own money.

Effectively due to this "locked bonus" mechanism wagering does not clear when your bonus + deposit is lost. Wager requirements only clear if your entire balance is lost, then you can ask customer support to erase your bonus, that's what I was told by Bovada.

Quote: AxelWolf

And now to even use a bonus, you must make a brand new deposit?



Yes.

Highly unethical here in my opinion. Due to bovada's old system, I would imagine a scenario like, recreational players deposit $2000 to play poker, bet on sports, and casino. They intend to use let's say $1000 of that to get bonuses from the casino and gradually lose it over time, say 2 months and 15 bonuses later.

Now they're probably pissed that they've deposited enough for 15 bonuses (planning ahead) and without informing the clients at all, Bovada changed their system and is now demanding new deposits. DESPITE MANY CLIENTS PROBABLY ALREADY DEPOSITED LARGE AMOUNTS TO PLAN AHEAD, AKA FOR FUTURE BONUSES. Not to mention, now they're forcing players to eat massive 11.7% fees in and out.

Quote: AxelWolf

Has Slots.lv made the same changes?



Slots.lv made the exact changes on 7-1-2015 (a month ago). Bodog made the changes around the same time as Bovada.

The sad thing behind all this is they've all tried to advertise this change as "new look", "improvement", "upgrade", "better", "we now got rid of, I mean improved, your bonus balance so you only have 1 balance to manage! Because hey, why just hold your bonus balance in jeopardy when we can hold your entire balance hostage!" etc. Just how stupid do they think their players are? This was clearly an update that is extremely bad for players yet they try to sell it as something new and positive.

Slots.lv also "upgraded" their new VIP system and it's just basically reducing comp points gain rate by 80%.
Neutrino
Neutrino
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August 7th, 2015 at 7:48:19 PM permalink
One more thing to add that I thought was kinda funny almost.

Slots.lv "upgraded" their table game bonus to 120x (D+B)

yep, you read it right, 240x bonus, it's still 240x even if you play slots.

That's the largest wagering requirement I've ever seen.
Neutrino
Neutrino
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August 7th, 2015 at 8:13:01 PM permalink
Quote: BillP73

Yes, you've got it.

You must deposit to take advantage of the bonus. In essence, there are no "casino chips" now, you bring your entire bankroll into the game. And if my losses exceed the amount of the deposit + bonus amount...there is still a rollover requirement if I have a balance. I have run into that both times to this point. (Losing has become oddly frequent when playing textbook blackjack. Talking over a dozen consecutive losing sessions at this point)

How that affects withdrawals if I attempted one, I'm not entirely sure at this point.

Either way, there's absolutely nothing positive about the casino changes for the player.



Yep, good points.

This does affect withdrawals from what I know. Well, more like withdrawals affecting plays now whereas previously this was no issue. It has always been that you can't deposit if you have a pending withdrawal. Ok, that makes sense. And previously you are still able to redeem bonuses when you have a pending withdrawal.

Now bonuses are tied to deposits, and if you have a pending withdrawal you can't deposit, therefore you can't redeem bonuses.

Thank god at least bovada's cashout rate is fast, currently at 48 hours. But is that going to be the way in the future? Especially since now they're forcing everyone to deposit and withdraw more, would it still be 48 hours with much higher withdrawal volume?






Quote: Gringo

Neutrino,

Thanks for bringing this up. I thought it was just me who hated the change. Glad I am not the only one... and great post BTW, with all the details spelled out correctly.

The bonus system change is ridiculous, with deposit requirement to claim any bonus and full rollover requirement even when losing more than deposited.

I guess, if they do not go back to old system, I will just take my cash and leave.

Also, I had accumulated bunch of blackjack weekends bonuses and they disappeared with the new system. Writing to bovada to reinstate them.

Gringo



Thanks for the support! I've accumulated like 3 $10 Tuesday table bonuses that also disappeared with the "upgrade". But the amounts are so little I just decided not to pursue them.

I sure hope they can go back to the old system as well. I can't possibly see any player liking this new system.
nickolay411
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August 7th, 2015 at 9:21:09 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Does Bovada still have the practice mode, I
can't find it.



EvenBob,


Seems like practice mode is there. You choose the game you want to play under casino by pressing play now and the pop up asks you real play or practice play. Choose practice play.

The only one that doesn't seem to be working is the craps practice play. Maybe not available yet.
AxelWolf
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August 8th, 2015 at 10:19:19 PM permalink
Wow after 15+ years of successful business under the old system they want to mess with it.

Perhaps LCB bought them out (-;.

This is one of the worst changes I have seen. Perhaps they are planning on offering higher percentage bonuses like 200+ %
Other than pure greed, that's the only logical reasoning I can think of for this change. But since SLV has been this way for a month it sounds unlikely.

I highly doubt they will change anything back. At least nothing that will change my opinion and make it worth staying. They will lose lose smart players and keep degenerates.

I will wait and see if they offer anything good under the new system. If not I will be cashing out everything and passing the word to others.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Neutrino
Neutrino
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August 10th, 2015 at 5:29:09 PM permalink
As much as I wish they would increase bonus amounts, when this same change happened in slots.lv, the only thing that changed with it was WR, and it went up, not down.

Table games welcome bonus went from 40x to 120x.
davidmvdg
davidmvdg
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October 15th, 2015 at 1:57:09 PM permalink
Regarding bonuses, I completely agree with. Today they royally f****d me on this, first time I've been on in a while. Had $350 in my account, had to deposit $250 more to get DOUBLE2 bonus, so $500 bonus activated. Played blackjack and lost the $500 (it did seem odd that it said I had $850, but I figured i'd just wager down to $350) Well f&*( me, they are holding $228 of my $350 cash as bonus money still. I called them up and gave them an earful about it, and how this change literally benefits no players, but just pisses us all off.

Regarding fees, I'm Canadian and use the Amazon.ca Visa to deposit, no fee for me for depositing. Great card, because it charges 0% on foreign currency transactions. For withdrawal there is no fee for me either, which is online directly into my checking account.
AxelWolf
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October 17th, 2015 at 10:26:13 AM permalink
I am surprised that this hasn't got more attention. I always
say nothing good lasts forever.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
gringo
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December 21st, 2015 at 12:40:32 PM permalink
I am wondering if there is any update on this?

Did Bovada revert to old system or do they still require full rollover even if after deposit amount/bonus has been lost?
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