Moral Dilemma

So, I noticed today during my hours of play that there were several mistakes made... both in my favor and not in my favor in regards to my money. Not going to get into detail, but I was almost shorted a few times and caught it but there was also a time where I got overpaid... Once today and another couple times I've noticed in the past.

So the question is...

If you are in a position where you get overpaid, do you say something? Or do you keep the money and keep your mouth shut?

It is not your responsibility to correct the houses error. That is my opinion.
However, I can't wait for the responses regarding this.
I never thought a member of this forum would prevent a dealer from paying a table full of WOV members when she had a 22 in Free Bet BJ. But, what was funny the member happily took an incorrect pay with their own soft hand prior to the 22 hand. Guess they just felt it appropriate to let one mistake slide in their favor, 2 is some kind of sin or something.

Quote: HotBlonde

So, I noticed today during my hours of play that there were several mistakes made... both in my favor and not in my favor in regards to my money. Not going to get into detail, but I was almost shorted a few times and caught it but there was also a time where I got overpaid... Once today and another couple times I've noticed in the past.

So the question is...
/
If you are in a position where you get overpaid, do you say something? Or do you keep the money and keep your mouth shut?

Is this really a moral dilemma for you?

Good for you that this is a moral dilemma for you HotBlonde. An awful lot of folks, especially among the AP crowd seem to disregard everything they ever learned about right and wrong when they were young, the moment they walk through the casino doors, as if that is a magical gateway to 'the land of anything goes'.

I am an AP and support myself 100% from AP play. I also have a strong dislike for the Casino Industry, because I feel it is predatory. But for me, that doesn't mean anything goes. I have to be comfortable with things that I do and that means there are things that I won't do. Like hole-carding. Not illegal, but seeking out and taking advantage of weak dealers doesn't seem right to me. I did it for a little while a few years ago and it just didn't feel right, nor did I like winning that way. Scavenger plays is another one. Absolutely nothing illegal, but I don't feel good taking advantage of other players. That is also why I never gravitated towards poker play.

Mis-pays are a big dilemma for me. Everything in my fiber wants to point out dealer error, both shorts and overpays. Unfortunately, as an blackjack AP, I must keep a low profile. I try very hard not to draw attention and make myself memorable and pointing out misplays is just the type of thing that does that, as obviously pit needs to be called.

There is also a secondary issue, that pointing out dealer mistakes can be real bad for the dealer. Maybe they are prone to making mistakes and you pointing out more, contributes to them losing their job. I really would prefer not to have that kind of thing on me.

So, my solution is that I let 'most' mis-pays go. That means all low limit mis-pays in either direction and all higher limit mis-pays in my favor. BUT higher 'shorts' I do point out. I just can't afford to give up a big chunk of EV because of dealer mistake, nor should I have to. Why should I be penalized for dealer mistake.

I won't tell you that this half-assed morality policy passes the 'know right from wrong test', but it's the best I can do. I can only hope my god is understanding.

didn't we go thru this like, maybe a million times?

I've never felt in the wrong correcting someone who has underpaid me. I do have a bit more difficulty if I'm overpaid though. I've rationalized it more than a few times and am not sure why. I think I tell myself that winning can be difficult enough without those mistakes, and from a mathematical sense it just makes sense to accept it.

However, I tip on the majority of my trips, so I'm not sure how it all fits together. Hahaha.

Never will feel bad nor correct an overpay to another player or myself.

I remember asking a dealer this, and they prefer if you don't point out mistakes. However if it's a new dealer at my local casino, we're only having a fun game or perhaps trying out a new game, then I might point out an error to help them learn. I am usually happy to suggest a way to improve procedures if an unusual situation hasn't been considered. If you're a game designer then I think it is fair to think about the casino side: help with countability analysis, any hole carding or cheating opportunities, or other similar issues.

Quote: HotBlonde

If you are in a position where you get overpaid, do you say something? Or do you keep the money and keep your mouth shut?

It depends.

I'm not under Nevada law, most of the places I play are Tribal. Some of them hawk the game from the eye, and will call down to try and get payout errors corrected. I don't want that. In those places, I usually correct at least the first few errors, and I have perceived that the general heat level is lower on those days.

If it's an error on buy in or color up, yes, I'll correct it.

If it's at a low heat place and I get paid on a push, I'll usually let it slide.

If I see a dealer making an unusually high number of errors in my favor, it's time to move on.

Quote: kewlj

Good for you that this is a moral dilemma for you HotBlonde. An awful lot of folks, especially among the AP crowd seem to disregard everything they ever learned about right and wrong when they were young, the moment they walk through the casino doors, as if that is a magical gateway to 'the land of anything goes'.

I am an AP and support myself 100% from AP play. I also have a strong dislike for the Casino Industry, because I feel it is predatory. But for me, that doesn't mean anything goes. I have to be comfortable with things that I do and that means there are things that I won't do. Like hole-carding. Not illegal, but seeking out and taking advantage of weak dealers doesn't seem right to me. I did it for a little while a few years ago and it just didn't feel right, nor did I like winning that way. Scavenger plays is another one. Absolutely nothing illegal, but I don't feel good taking advantage of other players. That is also why I never gravitated towards poker play.

Mis-pays are a big dilemma for me. Everything in my fiber wants to point out dealer error, both shorts and overpays. Unfortunately, as an blackjack AP, I must keep a low profile. I try very hard not to draw attention and make myself memorable and pointing out misplays is just the type of thing that does that, as obviously pit needs to be called.

There is also a secondary issue, that pointing out dealer mistakes can be real bad for the dealer. Maybe they are prone to making mistakes and you pointing out more, contributes to them losing their job. I really would prefer not to have that kind of thing on me.

So, my solution is that I let 'most' mis-pays go. That means all low limit mis-pays in either direction and all higher limit mis-pays in my favor. BUT higher 'shorts' I do point out. I just can't afford to give up a big chunk of EV because of dealer mistake, nor should I have to. Why should I be penalized for dealer mistake.

I won't tell you that this half-assed morality policy passes the 'know right from wrong test', but it's the best I can do. I can only hope my god is understanding.

Don't worry there's No God.
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That reminds me of a story

Long ago during a discussion, I remember a advantage player telling me he also felt similar about hole carding as you do.

I found it odd because he had no problem with other VP angle shooting.

Years later during our discussion he mentioned hole carding. I reminded him about our previous conversation. I asked him why the change of hear? He said, "TBH that was an excuse, I just wasn't any good at it, and opportunity's were really hard to find, but I have since found a network of reliable information and since sharpened my skills. That and other stuff significantly more lucrative and way less volatile."

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Regarding HotBlonde, I think it was OFFICIALLY and justifiably a Super good question.

To be clear I was just asking HB if she really had a morality issue with this. From Some of the things I have read, she doesn't strike me as someone who would be overly concerned with this(that's not a bad thing IMO)

I remember something about her situation in the "is bigger better" thread. Something about getting donations for breast implants from guys willing to pay. Many people had moral issues with that. She didn't seem to

Quote: HotBlonde

So I was just talking with the Wizard about how I am planning on starting up a campaign very soon to raise donations for plastic surgery when my weight loss is completed.

Quote: HotBlonde

But I feel comfortable and I will.

Quote: buzzpaff
Surely the donors will get to visually inspect the fruits of their noble cause afterwards?
HotBlonde says: Most likely, yes.

I also remember some scuttlebutt about high-rollers or male BJ players offering to make bets for females. Not sure the details.

One of her Non-Negotiables in matchmaking must haves is "Makes a Financially Healthy Living."

And the wight loss challenge stuff. I have seen various other things that she has said that just made me ask the question. I'm not comparing the situations. it just made me wonder how much of a struggle she was actually having with this particular moral issue.

If she was a nun, I would probably say you should give it back immediately. If someone with a name like ParagonBlone asked the question it may be a different story
I'M NOT SAYING SHE ISN'T MORAL OR SUGGESTING THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH ANYTHING I READ

This has been discussed many times. What I do is if I'm overpaid is give the dealer every chance to correct the mistake by just leaving the chips there and making a "are you sure?" look on my face. The vast majority of the time the dealer will pick up on it.

I do not get involved in other players hands no matter which way the error. I've learned a long time ago to mind my own business when it comes to other players.

Alex, my issue with holecarding: My first year in Vegas, I got into hole carding for a few months. Had nothing to do with not being good. I was pretty good at it. I have pretty good eyes. So I found this one dealer the was extremely weak. I played with him multiple times a week and even learned his schedule. I remember one night I had to set my alarm, to go out in the middle of the night. It felt like I was stalking him....and in reality, I was. :( Finally, I said "what the hell am I doing". This is not how I want to win. I want to win fair and square and feel good about myself for doing so.

If I happen to run into a dealer that flashes cards, I take advantage of that. I am not going to pretend I didn't see, when I did. But I don't seek out weak dealers as some do. And I won't slouch in my chair to get a better angle. I would never do that wheelchair trick that one famous AP in our community did, just to get a better angle or sight line.

Quote: Wizard

This has been discussed many times. What I do is if I'm overpaid is give the dealer every chance to correct the mistake by just leaving the chips there and making a "are you sure?" look on my face. The vast majority of the time the dealer will pick up on it.

I do not get involved in other players hands no matter which way the error. I've learned a long time ago to mind my own business when it comes to other players.

Wiz, I am 100% with you on minding my own business. I also do similar to you on overpays. I let it linger for an extra couple seconds, really hoping the dealer will take a second look.

I do have a story of one time accepting overpay has come back to haunt me (and continues to this day).

It was a couple years ago at Terribles (now Silver7). I should have lost the hand. I forget what I had, maybe 18 vs dealer 19. Dealer tapped the table for a push. We go on playing. 2 rounds later, he tells me that we pushed a hand that I should have lost. He seemed annoyed at it. It was a very accusing tone. At first I thought the whole incident was a test, but later decided, this guy re-plays the hands in his head, sort of like replaying a tape.

I have probably played with him 15-20 times in the 2 years since and he makes some sort of comment about half the time when I sit down. Something like "Oh I need to be on my toes with you". Just something to let me know that he remembers.

Quote: kewlj

. And I won't slouch in my chair to get a better angle. .

So a wheelchair is out of the question?

Quote: AxelWolf

So a wheelchair is out of the question?

What was the VERY next line in my post. "I would never do that wheelchair trick that one famous AP did."

I have the same policy as the Wizard normally. I will always point out underpays and for overpays just try to make it obvious to the dealer without saying anything. I will point out when the dealer underpays another player but would never point out an overpay to someone else. That's a good way to get beat up. The only exception would be at a poker table, I will speak up if a pot is being awarded to the wrong player, even if I am not in the hand. I believe that is an ethical obligation to keep the game fair, but not all poker players agree.

III take overpays and inform them of underpays. I do not seek out weak dealers, but can spot them within a couple of hands. Additionally, I do not act any differently as some here do when they are overpaid. It is their mistake and I just play stupid if they ask for it back. I haven't had a situation where they wanted more than a unit or two back, but I only play where comped so it would have to be a lot of money for me to refuse paying them for an alleged mispay.