PhilippeB
PhilippeB
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 35
Joined: Jun 23, 2015
June 23rd, 2015 at 6:23:48 AM permalink
Hello,

I found this :
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/9/

but in
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackj.../euro-6ds17r4/
there are many -1.00000 that I don't understand.

For exemple, 3 vs 10,7
Of course, hitting (nor doubling) is not the best answer. But, -1.000000 is *ever* losing.
Different chart give -0.532472, more logical.
And without dealer's Ten or Ace ENHC don't mater.

What do you thing about ?

Best regards

Philippe B
Sorry, my english is poor.
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 2946
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
June 23rd, 2015 at 7:43:32 AM permalink
Quote: PhilippeB

... https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackj.../euro-6ds17r4/ ...

Can you quote the entire link as this gets not found. You are correct that, unless dealer has a Blackjack, few hands are less than -1. However doubling any hard total of 5 or lower (I'm confused as you can't have hard 3) cannot win against a dealer 17 (e.g. you've peeked his card). btw there are some doubles against a UK Ace (i.e. dealer may still have Blackjack) that would be negative.
PhilippeB
PhilippeB
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 35
Joined: Jun 23, 2015
June 23rd, 2015 at 9:01:17 AM permalink
Sorry, a bad copy/paste.

Links and strange values are, for instance :

https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/9/6ds17r4/
3 9,8 -0.117448 -0.532256 -1.064512 0.00091915

https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/9/euro-6ds17r4/
3 9,8 -0.117448 -1.000000 -1.000000 0.00091915
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
June 23rd, 2015 at 10:25:12 AM permalink
That last line looks like a code-level shortcut somehow. The EV for hitting on hard 17 vs. 3 is clearly not -1. It's bad but it's not -1. On the other hand, I don't think it ultimately matters because the total EV of the game would take the maximum play from each row and -1 is never it. That's why I think it's a shortcut.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
AceTwo
AceTwo
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 359
Joined: Mar 13, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 11:07:45 AM permalink
An obvious mistake.
The -1 appears in many hands under the Double Ev.
Something went wrong in WoO software.
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 2946
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
June 23rd, 2015 at 11:29:57 AM permalink
As you say something probably went wrong in the software. Also I notice that the value of a Blackjack vs Ace is 1.5 whereas in ENHC its value is lower as you may still get a standoff when the dealer gets a Blackjack; a similar argument applies to 10 10-A.
miplet
miplet
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 2105
Joined: Dec 1, 2009
June 23rd, 2015 at 11:47:51 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

That last line looks like a code-level shortcut somehow. The EV for hitting on hard 17 vs. 3 is clearly not -1. It's bad but it's not -1. On the other hand, I don't think it ultimately matters because the total EV of the game would take the maximum play from each row and -1 is never it. That's why I think it's a shortcut.


I emailed Wizard about this a while ago. Looks like he only changed one of the tables. euro-8dh17r4 uses: N/V = Not a viable play.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
AceTwo
AceTwo
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 359
Joined: Mar 13, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 11:51:48 AM permalink
The value of the Ev of BJ va A is the same both in US game and ENHC.
By convention (and for practical purposes) though in the US game the Ev is calculated after the dealer calculates for BJ and you get the 150% whereas in ENHC you usually calculate it before the dealer checks for BJ and get the 104%.

But you could calculate the ENHC Ev for this hand after the dealer checks for BJ if you want, so I do not know which method the WoO uses for the ENHC.
PhilippeB
PhilippeB
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 35
Joined: Jun 23, 2015
June 24th, 2015 at 3:00:23 AM permalink
OK
Thank you all.
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 2946
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
June 24th, 2015 at 3:33:06 AM permalink
Quote: AceTwo

...you could calculate the ENHC Ev for this hand after the dealer checks for BJ if you want...

The thing about ENHC is the dealer never gets a second card until after all players have acted, and never "peeks".

Thus in the UK players have to make their decisions while there is still a chance of the dealer getting BJ, whereas in the US players make their decisions knowing BJ isn't possible. When the cards are initially dealt, the EVs are the same - when the players actually make their decisions the EVs are different. It therefore seems sensible to list the EVs at the players' decision points - also in some cases (such as splitting 8s, doubling 11) it's essential.

You can see that WoO has taken this into account - for instance the first line (A2 vs A) has
(US) St:-0.666224 H: -0.059413 or
(UK) St:-0.722307 H: -0.378980.
  • Jump to: