Philly Amtrak train derailment

I have watched the news coverage of the Amtrak train derailment off and on for the last 24 hours now with great interest, as a former Philly guy.

In 2001, I relocated to Philadelphia from Florida. My first couple of years in Philly, I lived in the Frankford section of Philadelphia, about a mile from the derailment site. The news is saying the derailment occurred in the Port Richmond section of Philly, but it is really closer to Frankford. There are no hard boundaries for the different sections of Philadelphia.

Regarding the 50 mile an hour speed limit: I can tell you that I used to ride the Frankford El (elevated) daily and where the Frankford El crosses over the Amtrak tracks (where Frankford Ave meets Kensington Ave), the Amtrak trains were usually going 100 MPH. Now that section is about a mile west of the derailment site and it is a somewhat straight-away section compared to the curve at the derailment site, where the trains curve and then head north along the Delaware river toward New York City. I guess maybe the trains could slow down from 100 to 50 MPH in that mile or so, but it seems unlikely, in my opinion. I am just saying, I don't think trains going much faster than that posted 50 MPH limit is unusual, more like the norm.

At any rate, based on the coverage that I have seen, I am proud of the way all involved in that community, which is best described as a rough area, seemed to have responded, including police, first responders, and Mayor Nutter, who I know somewhat personally, although I have had no contact with him since he visited Vegas 3 years ago and we had dinner. He is a good person.

My thoughts and prayers go out to those lost their lives and were injured.

Quote: kewlj

I have watched the news coverage of the Amtrak train derailment off and on for the last 24 hours now with great interest, as a former Philly guy.

In 2001, I relocated to Philadelphia from Florida. My first couple of years in Philly, I lived in the Frankford section of Philadelphia, about a mile from the derailment site. The news is saying the derailment occurred in the Port Richmond section of Philly, but it is really closer to Frankford. There are no hard boundaries for the different sections of Philadelphia.

Regarding the 50 mile an hour speed limit: I can tell you that I used to ride the Frankford El (elevated) daily and where the Frankford El crosses over the Amtrak tracks (where Frankford Ave meets Kensington Ave), the Amtrak trains were usually going 100 MPH. Now that section is about a mile west of the derailment site and it is a somewhat straight-away section compared to the curve at the derailment site, where the trains curve and then head north along the Delaware river toward New York City. I guess maybe the trains could slow down from 100 to 50 MPH in that mile or so, but it seems unlikely, in my opinion. I am just saying, I don't think trains going much faster than that posted 50 MPH limit is unusual, more like the norm.

At any rate, based on the coverage that I have seen, I am proud of the way all involved in that community, which is best described as a rough area, seemed to have responded, including police, first responders, and Mayor Nutter, who I know somewhat personally, although I have had no contact with him since he visited Vegas 3 years ago and we had dinner. He is a good person.

My thoughts and prayers go out to those lost their lives and were injured.

Great post, kewlj, and my thoughts and prayers also.

The thing that has struck me as a former transportation worker and safety representative is how quickly the media is translating the engineer's non-statement to be an indication of guilt or cover-up. That is not the case.

Here's what happens in an accident of this magnitude, with a survivor or other critical participant available (an air traffic controller who had a mid-air would be an example of a critical participant, and they're the ones I've represented in like situations):

The person is immediately relieved from duty, usually on administrative time, until it's judged they're able to return to work. That may never happen; I saw it several times.

If they are physically injured, they get treatment.

Almost all of them are psychically injured. They are not left alone for one minute until it's reasonably established that they're not reactively suicidal, and that they're not showing indications of shock, which can lead to physical collapse. They are not allowed to have formal discussions with anyone until that's established. In some cases, that takes days, even a week or two.

However, they are immediately tested, both blood and urine, for drugs and alcohol, and they fill out a full questionnaire about their recent activities, medical history and prescription meds, schedule for the past day to a week, other things like that. Their on-site representative helps them work through the questionnaire, usually done in private, so they don't inadvertently misrepresent or incriminate themselves while they're still focused on what happened.

They are also encouraged to make private notes to themselves about what happened so they don't forget details, and sometimes asked to make a preliminary written statement for the record. They are offered representation either legal, crisis mitigation, and/or representation by a fellow employee or trained union representative, for that part and anything that follows. They are allowed to talk to their representatives informally and confidentially.

However, (again), once they make any verbal or written statements to someone in authority, that becomes part of the formal package, just like in Miranda warnings. So, in a system designed primarily to ensure the investigators get the facts, ALL the facts, and not self-serving distortions or denials, (because that's the only way to truly learn from the accident and avoid the next one) the person's account is generally not demanded before they're in their right mind and ready to give it. Statements are usually as brief as possible. Conjecture, what-if's, speculation, generally not allowed.

Nearly every talking head, and several folks on the ground, including Mayor Nutter, made wild and unfounded statements about the folks running the train, and insinuating that they were hiding something by not giving immediate statements to the police. I have a lot of respect for Mayor Nutter as well; I think he got caught up in the moment. I heard the NTSB lead investigator pulled him aside and asked him to stop it, which means it got pretty bad, for them to step in between him and the media.

Everyone would like immediate answers; they're not going to get them. But hopefully, the facts will emerge in the next few days as they gather information.

Off my soapbox. Thanks.

I didn't see the statements made by Mayor Nutter that you are referring to, BBB. At the risk of sounding like I am defending him and/or his statements, I will just say that a position like mayor of a community, requires that person to become spokesman for things and situations that occur in that community, usually some type of disaster or real negative news story, where a TV camera is thrust in their face.

Although certainly part of the job, the public speaking, spokesman situation is not Mayor Nutter's strongest point. He often comes across as 'a little goofy'. From the few times I have spent a little time with him, I can assure you that he is a good person and has a good heart. He probably just got caught up in the moment of wanting to get answers as to why such an accident occurred.

Philly is going to have a hard time replacing him in the upcoming election. He has always put the best interest of Philly first, including times when it goes against his own party.

I guess those trains aren't as technologically advanced as I'd thought. I assumed the engines were linked to the system in such a way that all kinds of bells and whistles would go off if it approached a 50 mph curve at twice that speed.

Though that doesn't rule out an impaired / absent driver.

Quote: Calder

I assumed the engines were linked to the system in such a way that all kinds of bells and whistles would go off if it approached a 50 mph curve at twice that speed.

The Amtrak route in New Jersey is covered by Positive Train Control, as anyone who rides NJ Transit can attest. One big question is why not such a critical segment in Philly? Just as with the Metro North derailment near Spuyten Duyvil.

Quote: SanchoPanza

The Amtrak route in New Jersey is covered by Positive Train Control, as anyone who rides NJ Transit can attest. One big question is why not such a critical segment in Philly? Just as with the Metro North derailment near Spuyten Duyvil.

I am guessing here, but is Positive Train Control associated with electrified rail? While the PHL-NYC line is electrified, the accident was at Frankford Junction where the electrical line meets the diesel line.

I know that when the train was hired to run from NYC to Atlantic City they would attach an electric and a diesel locomotive. The electric would push the cars from NYC to Philadelphia into a dead end at Frankford Junction (just north of Center City). Then the diesel would pull the cars to Atlantic City.


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Quote: pacomartin

I am guessing here, but is Positive Train Control associated with electrified rail? While the PHL-NYC line is electrified, the accident was at Frankford Junction where the electrical line meets the diesel line. I know that when the train was hired to run from NYC to Atlantic City they would attach an electric and a diesel locomotive. The electric would push the cars from NYC to Philadelphia into a dead end at Frankford Junction (just north of Center City). Then the diesel would pull the cars to Atlantic City.

That is because the AC line has never been and will most likely never be electrified. Meanwhile, at other junctions with diesel-only service like Newark, PTC is omnipresent, and strictly so.

I talked with a conductor of a major freight train company last night. He says he is 99% sure the engineer of the Philly train fell asleep after trying to make up time for running late. On the freight train he works for the conductor and engineer are always in the room together with the conductor giving the engineer updates on upcoming speed limits, crossings, curves etc. He also said he would not go more than 55 even on a 50 mph turn.

He believes if Amtrak has a conductor (he wasn't sure for passenger trains) the conductor was probably in one of the passenger areas and although he could feel the train was going very fast, did not know the curve was coming up. The engineer fell asleep and awoke and jammed on the brakes as the train started to enter the turn.

He said there should be two people in the cabin (not sure if that's what it's called on a train) just like in a plane and his freight train, at almost all times.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

I talked with a conductor of a major freight train company last night. He says he is 99% sure the engineer of the Philly train fell asleep after trying to make up time for running late. On the freight train he works for the conductor and engineer are always in the room together with the conductor giving the engineer updates on upcoming speed limits, crossings, curves etc. He also said he would not go more than 55 even on a 50 mph turn.

He believes if Amtrak has a conductor (he wasn't sure for passenger trains) the conductor was probably in one of the passenger areas and although he could feel the train was going very fast, did not know the curve was coming up. The engineer fell asleep and awoke and jammed on the brakes as the train started to enter the turn.

He said there should be two people in the cabin (not sure if that's what it's called on a train) just like in a plane and his freight train, at almost all times.


ZCore13

No offense, Zcore, but that sounds like a lot of speculation. It seems like a strange place to fall asleep. The train was only minutes out of Philadelphia's 30th street station and the route between the station and the crash site is anything but a routine straight run. Trains leaving 30th street station heading north, circle around the Philadelphia Zoo, then turn crossing the Schuylkill River on a pretty old train bridge, then wind through some really bad parts of North Philly, passing by Childrens Hospital and the original Tastykake factory, through Kensington, under the Frankford El that I previously mentioned and then hit Frankford Junction, where they turn north for a run along the western side of the Delaware River.

All the while the tracks used in this run are used by not only Amtrak, but also used by one of the local Septa rail lines (either the Trenton line or the West Trenton line, I can't remember which), as well as New Jersey Transit's Phila to Atlantic City line AND freight trains. I mean after the turn north (crash location), I could see the engineer possible 'zoning out', but between 30th street and that curve north (crash site), he has multiple things he should be dealing with, which you would think would keep him alert.

But 2 people in the train 'cabin' or 'cockpit' or whatever it's called certainly sounds like a good idea for a number of reasons.

Quote: kewlj

No offense, Zcore, but that sounds like a lot of speculation. It seems like a strange place to fall asleep. The train was only minutes out of Philadelphia's 30th street station and the route between the station and the crash site is anything but a routine straight run. Trains leaving 30th street station heading north, circle around the Philadelphia Zoo, then turn crossing the Schuylkill River on a pretty old train bridge, then wind through some really bad parts of North Philly, passing by Childrens Hospital and the original Tastykake factory, through Kensington, under the Frankford El that I previously mentioned and then hit Frankford Junction, where they turn north for a run along the western side of the Delaware River.

All the while the tracks used in this run are used by not only Amtrak, but also used by one of the local Septa rail lines (either the Trenton line or the West Trenton line, I can't remember which), as well as New Jersey Transit's Phila to Atlantic City line AND freight trains. I mean after the turn north (crash location), I could see the engineer possible 'zoning out', but between 30th street and that curve north (crash site), he has multiple things he should be dealing with, which you would think would keep him alert.

But 2 people in the train 'cabin' or 'cockpit' or whatever it's called certainly sounds like a good idea for a number of reasons.

Of course, it's all speculation. It's a professional in the same field speculating on what possibly could have happened.


ZCore13

I used to take the New Jersey transit, Philly to Atlantic City train, several times a week. That train coming from New jersey crosses the Delaware River via an old iron bridge and connects right there at Frankford Junction for the remainder of the trip I described above into Philadelphia's 30th street station.

What's funny about The New Jersey Transit train, was that it would often pause at the junction for several minutes waiting for other trains to pass. Then it would make that final leg of the trip through North Philly, around the Zoo and into 30th Street Station at a greatly reduced speed. I am talking freight train speed. Their explanation was that was the agreement they had to use those tracks.

A long straight section at high speed can induce a certain "highway hypnosis" where the engineer drifts off to sleep.

I'm NOT familiar with the area or the control systems. Some signal lights get misinterpreted due to glare, sometimes an engineer is only required to acknowledge a signal, not necessarily slow down in accord with it. Sleep apnea can be a problem for many shift workers.

I can not imagine such a wide discrepancy between permissible speed and actual speed. You don't take ANY curve at 100 MPH if you are even half awake.

Quote: FleaStiff

A long straight section at high speed can induce a certain "highway hypnosis" where the engineer drifts off to sleep.

I'm NOT familiar with the area or the control systems. Some signal lights get misinterpreted due to glare, sometimes an engineer is only required to acknowledge a signal, not necessarily slow down in accord with it. Sleep apnea can be a problem for many shift workers.

I can not imagine such a wide discrepancy between permissible speed and actual speed. You don't take ANY curve at 100 MPH if you are even half awake.

That's what the guy I talked to said. He said he has one thing that is more important than anything he does and that's stay awake. He also said the engineer had to have fallen asleep to allow this to happen. Speed limit reduced from 70 - 50 and he didn't respond. Upcoming curve that nobody in their right mind would take at that speed even if running late and no response until in the turn. Can't remember how fast he was going (asleep?) and did not want to speak to investigators. All sounds like trouble and a criminal trial to me.


ZCore13

Quote: kewlj

I didn't see the statements made by Mayor Nutter that you are referring to, BBB. At the risk of sounding like I am defending him and/or his statements, I will just say that a position like mayor of a community, requires that person to become spokesman for things and situations that occur in that community, usually some type of disaster or real negative news story, where a TV camera is thrust in their face.

Although certainly part of the job, the public speaking, spokesman situation is not Mayor Nutter's strongest point. He often comes across as 'a little goofy'. From the few times I have spent a little time with him, I can assure you that he is a good person and has a good heart. He probably just got caught up in the moment of wanting to get answers as to why such an accident occurred.

Kewlj,

And I don't mean to attack Mayor Nutter; as you and I both said, I think he got caught up in the moment. I don't know whose cameras he was talking to at the time, so I don't know what he said, but apparently at least one of them was NBC. After he talked to the AIC of the NTSB, he came back and made a pretty nuanced discussion, they tried to ask him about it and got nowhere, then later talked about the radical change in his statements from what he first said. I checked thru my sources and it was the NTSB intervention that got him to focus or whatever. His stress and anguish, I'm sure, are real, and he's in my thoughts and prayers as well.

Question from whoever asked about PTC and why:

The problem is money and technology. All passenger lines were supposed to have PTC by the end of 2015. It's been in the works for 10 years or more. Congress cut the appropriation amount multiple times which has helped delay the installs to where they might be finished by 2020. The NE corridor is the most heavily traveled, so they're the first installs, and long sections of track are done up there, but other sections are not. The system was strongly recommended by the NTSB (which can only recommend, not mandate or implement) until it was finally mandated (I think in 2007), though the first couple iterations had problems that helped slow the install while they worked those out, maybe responsible for 2 to 3 years of the delay.

Non-expert speculation: the train was only 10 minutes from the station, so I don't think it's going to be sleep. I'm leaning towards distraction, but there's a strong possibility it was mechanical/electronic failure of some kind that they couldn't override/fix in time. I guess we'll all see as the facts come out.

Quote: SanchoPanza

The Amtrak route in New Jersey is covered by Positive Train Control, as anyone who rides NJ Transit can attest.

This statement interests me... How exactly would the average passenger know that PTC is in operation?

Quote: beachbumbabs

The problem is money and technology.

The money had been allocated. Possibly under the never-seen trillion-dollar "stimulus." When the head of Amtrak responded to the question of why that curve lacked PTC and started to mention radio waves, the mayor cut him off, declaring that the news conference was not being held to discuss "details." How come no one asks the F.C.C. about that? Maybe that agency is just too preoccupied with the new "Net neutrality."

An additional question: Is accelerating from 70 mph to 106 mph in less than a minute standard procedure for Amtrak locomotives? That certainly never occurs on NJ Transit rolling stock.

Quote: SanchoPanza

An additional question: Is accelerating from 70 mph to 106 mph in less than a minute standard procedure for Amtrak locomotives? That certainly never occurs on NJ Transit rolling stock.

Philadelphia and Trenton are about 32 miles apart, and they are 30 minutes apart on the schedule. I can't imagine that the train goes above 79 mph on this section of track.

Quote: kewlj

No offense, Zcore, but that sounds like a lot of speculation.

Well yeah it is, and probably impossible to know for sure, but I think quite plausible. People fall asleep in cars all the time, why not a train ?

Quote: kewlj

But 2 people in the train 'cabin' or 'cockpit' or whatever it's called certainly sounds like a good idea for a number of reasons.

AGREED !

On NPR the other day, they were discussing the Positive Train Control system. The expert said the system cost was 100's of millions of dollars. Wouldn't it be cheaper to put a second person in the cabin ? Or cameras in the cabin so the engineer knows there is a record of his actions ?

Union suggests adding a second crew member to engines.

So, the answer is featherbedding? Isn't the conductor already doing this job? Why not a second driver in a Greyhound Bus as well?

Quote: AZDuffman

Union suggests adding a second crew member to engines.

So, the answer is featherbedding? Isn't the conductor already doing this job? Why not a second driver in a Greyhound Bus as well?

I believe the conductor in freight trains stays in the cabin with the engineer at all times. On passenger trains the conductor roams around the passenger areas assisting people and answering questions.

They need to have two in the engine room and pay a customer service person to roam around.

ZCore13

In the olden days, there was a brake van, with a guard whose job was to help regulate speed and apply the brakes. Though that was a lot to do with trains not having braking power anywhere except the locomotive and the brake van (caboose in US terms).

I wouldn't say having two engineers running the train is feather bedding... but I am not sure it's the solution either.

Quote: Zcore13

Quote: AZDuffman

Union suggests adding a second crew member to engines.

So, the answer is featherbedding? Isn't the conductor already doing this job? Why not a second driver in a Greyhound Bus as well?

I believe the conductor in freight trains stays in the cabin with the engineer at all times. On passenger trains the conductor roams around the passenger areas assisting people and answering questions.

They need to have two in the engine room and pay a customer service person to roam around.

ZCore13

I think that is a different kind of "conductor." Same word, different job. The conductor in the engine is a sort of junior engineer. He gets out when the train is stopped to work switches and decouple cars plus other things like that. I don't thing engineer or conductor interact with passengers at all.

Just as this story was winding down as far as the national spotlight, last week, there was claims and speculation that this train, along with 2 others, a southbound Amtrak train and a Septa Region rail train had all been hit by some sort of projectile, in that same area , all within a 30 minute timeframe or so. In the other two cases, the projectile broke windows. Speculation was a bullet or possible bb gun shot. Has anyone heard anymore on this?

Quote: ECoaster

This statement interests me... How exactly would the average passenger know that PTC is in operation?

Because regular riders become quite friendly with the regular train personnel, who can readily explain the frequent and inordinate delays on their trips.

Quote: Zcore13

On passenger trains the conductor roams around the passenger areas assisting people and answering questions.

More significantly, conductors sell, collect and punch tickets.

Quote: kewlj

Just as this story was winding down as far as the national spotlight, last week, there was claims and speculation that this train, along with 2 others, a southbound Amtrak train and a Septa Region rail train had all been hit by some sort of projectile, in that same area , all within a 30 minute timeframe or so. In the other two cases, the projectile broke windows. Speculation was a bullet or possible bb gun shot. Has anyone heard anymore on this?

Smoke and mirrors from the Union. No way anything hitting the train caused it to go 102 mph into a turn.


ZCore13

Quote: kewlj

Speculation was a bullet or possible bb gun shot. Has anyone heard anymore on this?

I think it is part of the data being collected, but I haven't heard anyone responsible say there is a smoking gun. I don't know how often there is a broken window.

Report I heard was that the FBI had ruled out a bullet hole in the glass as the cause of what's in the pictures. The engineer has no memory of the accident. All as of 2 days ago; don't recall any other details.