warpzones
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November 15th, 2014 at 4:08:10 AM permalink
Hello Everyone,

I noticed the other night while reading into wizard of odds site that there is an answer responding to someone where the wizard says:

" This I would call a strategy, as opposed to a system. There are lots of profitable strategies for beating the casinos, but zero profitable betting systems."

So this has me wondering- What are the "..profitable STRATEGIES for beating the casinos..." as opposed to systems....????????

I would like to hear from you all about what works... I am especially interested in a winning strategy for roulette but I am all open to ideas about any and all ways to beat any type of casino game- Please share!
1BB
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November 15th, 2014 at 4:14:17 AM permalink
Card counting blackjack works.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
warpzones
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November 15th, 2014 at 4:22:09 AM permalink
Hey

Cheers for the reply

I've heard many mixed thing about blackjack

People say you cannot make it work these days because they use multiple decks of cards..... ?
1BB
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November 15th, 2014 at 4:50:56 AM permalink
Quote: warpzones

Hey

Cheers for the reply

I've heard many mixed thing about blackjack

People say you cannot make it work these days because they use multiple decks of cards..... ?



Not true. Check out the Blackjack Forum on this site. It's under gambling.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Deucekies
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November 15th, 2014 at 5:05:25 AM permalink
Winning strategies for Roulette could include putting forth the effort to find a biased wheel, or playing bets only coupled with promotional coupons.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Dieter
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November 15th, 2014 at 5:42:04 AM permalink
Machine play where machine return + bonus > 100%.
May the cards fall in your favor.
odiousgambit
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November 15th, 2014 at 6:03:48 AM permalink
Quote: warpzones

I am especially interested in a winning strategy for roulette



Forget roulette.

From your other thread I can see you would benefit first by understanding the fallacies gamblers fall under.

I'd suggest reading all of these items,

https://www.google.com/search?q=fallacy%20site:wizardofodds.com&gws_rd=ssl

also,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_conceit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse_gambler%27s_fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot-hand_fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martingale_%28betting_system%29

in other words, get the nonsense out of your head or you are just heading for disaster
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
warpzones
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November 15th, 2014 at 6:14:54 AM permalink
Is not the "Gamblers Fallacy" simply a theory also?

I have found many instances of papers being written on the law-of-averages etc..

The wheel might NOT have a memory BUT we do!

You only have to look into other areas of research such as the PEAR paper on RNG and also Schrodingers Cat etc etc to see that the observer effects the outcome of events.

If the gamblers fallacy is a reality, (Questionable) -how then does one win with a strategy as the Wizard suggests?
odiousgambit
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November 15th, 2014 at 6:27:37 AM permalink
>how then does one win with a strategy?

I'm taking you seriously. Be advised though many responding will assume you are a troll, just stirring up folks. The evidence is mounting so I may get snippy too. You can't ask for advice, then brush it off as 'just a theory' and ignore it, and not irritate people.

To win consistently [not just get lucky] a player needs to find a situation where he will have the edge instead of the house. Check the other posts above to see what these are, then dig deeper.

Strategy will also revolve around the Kelly Criterion, making bets the right size to maximize your return with the best hedge against ruin.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
warpzones
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November 15th, 2014 at 6:41:03 AM permalink
I thankyou for taking me seriously because I would love to get to the bottom of this and discover all about the strategies that actually work

(player) "..Has an edge instead of the house." -Can you give me any hints on what casino games this could be achieved?

I am familiar with the Kelly Criterion and I will start to look around here for what you are saying.......

Thankyou for your help!
P.S> Any hints on that situation would be helpful !
odiousgambit
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November 15th, 2014 at 7:10:00 AM permalink
some known legal, but often house-discouraged, often slim in value, opportunities are:

*card counting BJ
*video poker with return above 100%
*slots with progressive jackpots built up
*excessively comped or rebated play

gray area stuff:

*hole-carding
*vulturing progressives
*edge sorting

totally cheating; won't list these
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
warpzones
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November 15th, 2014 at 7:35:02 AM permalink
Cheers Gambit :D

Nice and clear now.........

I've looked into card counting as I have a neat little app which teaches it, I have played it a few times. I was discouraged by people saying you can no longer use the card counting strategy because of multiple card decks..... So I am assuming that it can still be done despite many decks from what I'm seeing here.........
warpzones
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November 15th, 2014 at 8:21:15 AM permalink
Could someone please confirm that blackjack card counting can still be done with multiple decks such as 6 or 8+ ?
odiousgambit
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November 15th, 2014 at 8:43:52 AM permalink
Quote: warpzones

Could someone please confirm that blackjack card counting can still be done with multiple decks such as 6 or 8+ ?



the number of decks is bad for the HE, but if the penetration is all but the last deck or so ...

Casinos could in fact totally stop all card counting for practical purposes by multi-deck with poor penetration, or continuous shuffling too for that matter . But to be competitive they do offer countable games it seems. Players can find 2-deck games with good rules, but the minimums are higher.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Kerkebet
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November 15th, 2014 at 10:21:57 AM permalink
Quote: warpzones

What are the "..profitable STRATEGIES for beating the casinos..." as opposed to systems....????????



A simply brilliant question.

The answer is that you want to look for ways to take advantage of the ones already addicted to gambling, and internet forums.

Anyone who could beat the casino games, and the casinos, over the long-run; and have so much free time to post on such forums, could earn far more risk-free money in legitimate fields of endeavor.

Start small, and stay dedicated to something you enjoy doing. Especially, to something from which others can't discourage you on a daily basis.

Certainly, don't make an entrenched point of telling others what's not possible while advertising it. Not a healthy venture. Doesn't add up to anything gainfully satisfying.
Nonsense is a very hard thing to keep up. Just ask the Wizard and company.
1BB
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November 15th, 2014 at 10:36:37 AM permalink
Quote: warpzones

Could someone please confirm that blackjack card counting can still be done with multiple decks such as 6 or 8+ ?



Yes yes yes! A hundred decks can be accurately counted and no extraordinary skills are needed. The fewer decks the better but not because it's easier to count. With decent rules an eight deck game is beatable.

Starting counting from scratch is good because you haven't developed any bad habits. If you are serious about counting, get your information here and don't listen to the self proclaimed experts that haven't a clue. They are everywhere.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Avincow
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November 15th, 2014 at 10:44:50 AM permalink
Quote: warpzones

Could someone please confirm that blackjack card counting can still be done with multiple decks such as 6 or 8+ ?



Yes it is very possible. I have never ever played single deck games, they are simply hard to find. for multi-deck games you need to use a True Count (Running Count / Number of decks remaining).

If you are playing 8 decks, and have a running count of +7, don't get too excited just yet. Let's say only 1 deck of the 8 decks has been dealt. That means there are 7 decks remaining. So the True Count is +7 / 7 = 1. This is what you use to determine your bet size. With a True Count of 1, you either barely have an edge or you are at a slight disadvantage depending on the game you are playing.

As you can see, with more decks, there are less situations where you have an advantage. That's why casino do this, to make it harder for card counters. So while counting multiple decks is not impossible, it's harder. And since the good counts are few and far between, you will need a larger bet spread to make up for all the shitty counts you play through.
warpzones
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November 15th, 2014 at 11:46:06 AM permalink
So could someone please direct me to a thread where this is all explained step-by-step and clearly here on this forum?

I would like to look into this further..
Avincow
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November 15th, 2014 at 3:04:59 PM permalink
Quote: warpzones

So could someone please direct me to a thread where this is all explained step-by-step and clearly here on this forum?

I would like to look into this further..



This will pretty much cover everything you need to know:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/blackjack-school/

Here is a thread that will give you a good overview of what's involved:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/19491-a-to-z-counting-cards-in-blackjack/
EvenBob
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November 15th, 2014 at 3:29:09 PM permalink
The best strategy is drive to the casino
with $200, sit in your car for 20 min,
and drive home with $200. Works every
time.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Dieter
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November 15th, 2014 at 8:39:56 PM permalink
Quote: warpzones

Could someone please confirm that blackjack card counting can still be done with multiple decks such as 6 or 8+ ?



Sure.

You'll need a sizeable bankroll, and you'll need to practice your skills.

Take this as a guideline - when Thorp went on his trial run, he had a $10000 session bankroll for the weekend. You might want more, given that table minimums have increased since that time.

Remember that a gambling bankroll means you can afford to lose it without a significant adverse effect on your life.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Dieter
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November 15th, 2014 at 8:41:20 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The best strategy is drive to the casino with $200, sit in your car for 20 min, and drive home with $200. Works every time.



I don't see how you could lose with that strategy.
May the cards fall in your favor.
dwm
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November 15th, 2014 at 8:54:52 PM permalink
Card counting has a very small edge and requires big bets when the count is favorable. You can go broke counting just like any betting scheme.
darkoz
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November 16th, 2014 at 12:20:42 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

I don't see how you could lose with that strategy.



Actually this is a negative expectation as well.

Drive to the casino with $200. Wait 20 minutes then drive home.

Fill up gas tank with $20 bucks gas.

Return next week with $180 bucks. repeat first steps till broke,
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2014 at 12:24:33 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz



Return next week with $180 bucks. repeat first steps till broke,



Better than go into casino, lose 200, and leave.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MrV
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November 16th, 2014 at 1:03:00 AM permalink
Ah, but sometimes you actually do win.
"What, me worry?"
Dieter
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November 16th, 2014 at 2:45:34 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Actually this is a negative expectation as well.



It's negative expectation because expenses exceed revenue, not because of gambling losses.

If the individual using this scheme has separate gambling funds and travel funds (as compared to combined funds), the gambling funds are not being depleted.
May the cards fall in your favor.
darkoz
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November 16th, 2014 at 4:00:43 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

It's negative expectation because expenses exceed revenue, not because of gambling losses.

If the individual using this scheme has separate gambling funds and travel funds (as compared to combined funds), the gambling funds are not being depleted.



If gambling is being done and no one is there to witness it, does it exist?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
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November 16th, 2014 at 5:53:25 AM permalink
Not if it's a DI, BAC or ROULLETT player.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ThatDonGuy
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November 16th, 2014 at 11:06:55 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The best strategy is drive to the casino with $200, sit in your car for 20 min, and drive home with $200. Works every time.


I have a system that works just as well - play the "Bill Breaker" machine.

Be warned: some casinos may have switched to Coinstar for coins, which takes a cut.
AceTwo
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November 17th, 2014 at 2:11:09 PM permalink
Quote: warpzones

So could someone please direct me to a thread where this is all explained step-by-step and clearly here on this forum?

I would like to look into this further..



The best place to learn about BJ is the website BJ21. There is a free BJ School Tutorial (copied by many others). That's the Original BJ school.
I have learned from that exact website about 10 years ago.

Learning to Count and Playing with an Advantage is not that diffucult for someone with Average Arithematic an Memory skills.
Getting away with it for minor stakes is still not that difficult. Most casinos will ignore or do not bother you for minor stakes and small time of paly.
Getting away with for higher stakes is what is all about. That is where the skill is. Any casino around the world that realises hat you are a counter and are playing for relatively higher stakes will ban you. Depending on the casino and the skill that someone has from confusing that the casino that he is an average player the banning happens everywhere in the world. Depending on the country/state it could be outright ban or contermeasures (ie reduced penetration).

If casinos allowed counters to do their trade, I will not think twice about becoming a Pro and making a huge amount of money.
But if casinos allowed counters to do their trade, the game will not exist. Or would exist just with CSM (Contiunuing Shuffling Machines).

Regarding 6 or 8 decks, I actually find it easier to count 6 decks than 1 or 2 decks. That's just because I played mostly 6 decks and only played 1 or 2 decks very few times. It makes little difference to counting skill whether is 2 or 6 decks.
Counting is a relatively easy skill.
Learning Basic Strategy and Counting took me about 30 hours training at home. After about 100 hours real casino play, I was quite profficient.
The other thing that needs to be learned (depends on the person) is the phychological issue of not losing your cool. You lose 5 Big bets in a row (which could be 2 months salary) in 5 minutes and you still put out the Big bet if the count warrants it. This is easier said than done and some people just cannot do it.
The swings in the bankroll is a roller coaster and you need to get used to that.

BUT as I said above the higher you get the stakes, the more the casino watches and the more easily to get banned.
I think it is very doable to play at a level that results to an Average Hourly win of $50 per hour. To get to $100 per hour is quite difficult. And very few people can get away consistently with play for $200 per hour. Beyond that is almost impossiple (at least on a consistent basis)
MrMarvellous
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November 28th, 2019 at 1:59:09 PM permalink
If someone has a winning strategy why would they share it, I wouldn't and I do have a roulette strategy that wins, sorry but that is reality, Best to devise your own plan and stick to it and keep it to yourself.
EvenBob
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November 28th, 2019 at 2:06:49 PM permalink
Quote: MrMarvellous

If someone has a winning strategy why would they share it, I wouldn't and I do have a roulette strategy that wins, sorry but that is reality, Best to devise your own plan and stick to it and keep it to yourself.



I understand this post completely.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
aruzin
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November 29th, 2019 at 2:13:40 AM permalink
Quote: MrMarvellous

If someone has a winning strategy why would they share it, I wouldn't and I do have a roulette strategy that wins, sorry but that is reality, Best to devise your own plan and stick to it and keep it to yourself.



Roulette has something like 5% house edge, hence many are skeptical of any winning strategy that can change that edge. Keep your strategy to yourself, but at least tell us what it is based on - so we can perhaps make up our own minds as if it is viable or not... !!!?
Mission146
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Forager
November 29th, 2019 at 1:38:15 PM permalink
Quote: MrMarvellous

If someone has a winning strategy why would they share it, I wouldn't and I do have a roulette strategy that wins, sorry but that is reality, Best to devise your own plan and stick to it and keep it to yourself.



So do I: I just need to buy a roulette wheel, layout and convince someone to play at my roulette table.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mendoza
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November 29th, 2019 at 2:53:22 PM permalink
I leave when win.
weezrDASvegas
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December 13th, 2019 at 3:50:29 AM permalink
STRATEGY and SYSTEM are equivalent For many gamblers. Sophistikated guys sez the strategy is a group of similar systems.
if the systems dont work the strategy doesnt work. card counting blackjack is a strategy for many, or a collection of counting systems 4 some bj players. There are many counting systems with defenders and detractors as well. Hilo is considered the best by some, also the worst by others. All depends on how much money one lost...
weezrDASvegas
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December 13th, 2019 at 3:58:42 AM permalink
Quote: aruzin

Roulette has something like 5% house edge, hence many are skeptical of any winning strategy that can change that edge. Keep your strategy to yourself, but at least tell us what it is based on - so we can perhaps make up our own minds as if it is viable or not... !!!?


all roulette wheels are biased. If you find the bias you can win with a group of numbers. I saw stats on gambling forum and sites. 6 numbers won serious money after lots of spins at the same table.
ChumpChange
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December 13th, 2019 at 6:37:17 AM permalink
The Double Street Quad System https://www.casinonewsdaily.com/roulette-guide/double-street-quad-system/
Boz
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December 13th, 2019 at 8:54:11 AM permalink
There is another forum I won’t name filled with Billionaires who lament that they won so much on Roulette that most casinos removed it.

5.26% HA be damned. It really is easy if you take the time to see what numbers are Hot, Cold and Due.
OnceDear
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Foragerodiousgambitbeachbumbabs
December 13th, 2019 at 9:53:11 AM permalink
Quote: Boz

There is another forum I won’t name filled with Billionaires who lament that they won so much on Roulette that most casinos removed it.

5.26% HA be damned. It really is easy if you take the time to see what numbers are Hot, Cold and Due.

... And of course, always 'Hit and run' $:o)
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
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