RS
RS
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April 28th, 2014 at 4:39:05 PM permalink
Quote: arcticfun

I mean, suppose you have $x in chips from a single weekend, and x > 10k. At what point would you request a check instead of cash? I've walked out of a casino with $15k before, but I cashed chips in over consecutive nights because i was staying at the hotel, so each transaction was less than 10k.



Isn't that structuring?
geoff
geoff
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April 28th, 2014 at 4:41:36 PM permalink
Quote: RS

Isn't that structuring?

Yes it is.
Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
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April 28th, 2014 at 4:57:41 PM permalink
Quote: geoff

Yes it is.



No, it probably is not as an isolated case. Structuring requires intent to avoid reporting requirements, beyond any reasonable doubt. Since a routine CTR should have been filed and he apparently lacks knowledge on the subject, this suggests he lacked intent. This law has a quirk because ignorance of the law can be a defense.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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April 28th, 2014 at 4:59:34 PM permalink
Quote: geoff

Yes it is.



I think it depends on the circumstances. If I go to a casino for a weekend with $5k in cash, buy in for $2k on Friday, win $6k, and cash out all my $8k, go to sleep, buy in for another $2k on Saturday, win $7k, and cash out all my $9k and go home with $18k in my pocket, that is not structuring. I never had more than $10k in chips in my possession to cash out. The casino will have records showing that I won the money over two days.

On the other hand if I won all $13k on Friday, but cash it out over 2 days, I think it would be difficult to claim that it was not structuring.
Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
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April 28th, 2014 at 5:16:31 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I think it depends on the circumstances. If I go to a casino for a weekend with $5k in cash, buy in for $2k on Friday, win $6k, and cash out all my $8k, go to sleep, buy in for another $2k on Saturday, win $7k, and cash out all my $9k and go home with $18k in my pocket, that is not structuring. I never had more than $10k in chips in my possession to cash out. The casino will have records showing that I won the money over two days.

On the other hand if I won all $13k on Friday, but cash it out over 2 days, I think it would be difficult to claim that it was not structuring.



If you split the transactions in half, and played equal amounts each day, it probably would not be structuring. If you did not play at all the next day and cashed out $3,001 24 hours after your first cash out, then it probably would be structuring.
Tomspur
Tomspur
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April 28th, 2014 at 5:18:45 PM permalink
Here is where it is important to note the exact differences between CTR's and SAR's. If you are a new player and you do as artic had suggested, cash out over two days, then the casino will generate a SAR and watch you like a hawk. If you repeat the process, then they will get you quick as a flash.

Casinos (and all other financial institutions) take Title 31 VERY seriously. finCEN takes their jobs very seriously too and they are rigorously enforcing the laws. Casinos will attempt to get as much information on your playing habits and indeed your cashing out habits as they deem necessary to make an accurate decision about your intentions.

My suggestion would be very similar to the rest here. Just play with a players card, give the casinos the details they require (ID, Social and the like) and pay your taxes when they are due. Remember, if a casino hands you or sends you a W-2, that means that the IRS has a copy too.

I don't think it is worth messing with your other business or gainful employment just to try and duke the government out of their fair share.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
kewlj
kewlj
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April 28th, 2014 at 5:52:22 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

Structuring requires intent to avoid reporting requirements, beyond any reasonable doubt.



I wonder if this applies to casinos as well? Fremont Casino (downtown) has a big advertisement on the side of the building advertising jackpots of $1199! Clearly this is about avoiding that $1200 threshold that requires a hand pay and paperwork. Isn't that the definition of structuring?
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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April 28th, 2014 at 5:56:02 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I wonder if this applies to casinos as well? Fremont Casino (downtown) has a big advertisement on the side of the building advertising jackpots of $1199! Clearly this is about avoiding that $1200 threshold that requires a hand pay and paperwork. Isn't that the definition of structuring?



No, they are just paying you less than the amount that requires a form. It's not like they are saying, instead of paying you $2000 for your jackpot, we will pay you $1000 on this spin and give you a $1000 bonus on your next spin.
Tomspur
Tomspur
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April 28th, 2014 at 5:57:45 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I wonder if this applies to casinos as well? Fremont Casino (downtown) has a big advertisement on the side of the building advertising jackpots of $1199! Clearly this is about avoiding that $1200 threshold that requires a hand pay and paperwork. Isn't that the definition of structuring?



I think the casino is using it as a marketing tool rather than an evation of the threshold. They are attempting to draw customers in who know about the threshold and want to avoid it.

I guess the casinos can offer any jackpot payout they want within the regulations set forth by the NGC.

Same as I have suggested about 3:2 blackjack with liberal rules. Advertise and market that bad boy and hopefully your drop will increase.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
arcticfun
arcticfun
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April 28th, 2014 at 6:41:56 PM permalink
The cash-out was over two days because I won on both days and cashed out on both days, not because I was avoiding a single big cash-out. But man, you guys make it sound pretty serious. When I walked to the cage with 7k in chips, the procedure was completely painless and anonymous -- the only thing the cashier asked was if I had any markers (no, I didn't), and had a double count the bills in the 5k stack. In and out in a minute... No player's card required, nothing. Am I completely naive? an SAR for that? .... I didn't feel any heat in that sense whatsoever...

Also, there are no W2s from blackjack.

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