Why do people play pai gow poker
I know that most people don't view house edge the way I do. Most people don't even have a concept of what house edge is. Having a mathematician telling you "Blackjack has a 0.5% house edge" probably won't even convince most people since they would think, hey, I'm in control, sure I lose a bit but I can double and split and maximize my profit.
It's the way pai gow presents itself that makes me think "Why would anyone play this game". The answers to "because they have no concept of house edge" can't even apply here because it's so intuitive.
First of all, let me state that optimal strategy in pai gow is supposed to be extremely difficult and hence, most people who play pai gow will play the house way or worse. So let's just assume they're playing the house way then...
You're doing the exactly same thing as the dealer. If you push you basically go again (no effect on bankroll, might as well pretend pushes do not exist), if you lose you lose, and if you win dealer takes 10% of your winnings.
I'm sure if you go up to your friends, no matter how dumb they are, and say "hey, want to play a coin flip game? You guess heads or tails. If you're wrong I get your money. If you're right you get my money and then I take 10% from it" they would say "hell no"
Really, how much more intuitive does a game have to be for people to know it's a bad game? I'll emphasize once again you're doing EXACTLY the same thing as the dealer but if you win, you win less. Anyone with a brain can tell this is a bad game.
The overall house edge in pai gow poker isn't that bad, it's just the way it presents itself as an extremely obvious lose-money game makes me wonder why people play this.
Quote: IbeatyouracesIt's 5%, not 10%
winnings, not pot. if you bet 1:1 you get 1.9 back for win afaik.
Quote: Neutrinowinnings, not pot. if you bet 1:1 you get 1.9 back for win afaik.
If you bet $100 and win you get $95 plus your original $100.
http://gyazo.com/ca7a323f0fd2dd767ddf90494fa0fd23
Quote: NeutrinoI just did a test on bovada. Seems worse than I thought, 25%
http://gyazo.com/ca7a323f0fd2dd767ddf90494fa0fd23
Try $5 on Bovada. It'll be 25 cents.
I think most people play because it's a low volatility way to kill time. Most hands are pushes, and it's a slow game. If I play a game with 20 rounds per hour and a 1.8% HE/round and you play a game with 80 rounds per hour and a 0.65% HE/round, which of us is better off?
No. They take $1.25 - that's 5%.Quote: IbeatyouracesIf I win a $25 bet, the house doesn't take $2.50.
Actually, the edge is slightly higher since the banker wins copy hands. Of course, that's why you want to bank - to reduce the edge.Quote: FinsRuleHouse edge is 2.5% if not banking. Strategy is not that hard to figure out.
Someone complaining the "house edge" yet he can't figure out the commission %.
Quote: rdw4potusThe commission is very obviously 5%. There's a whole page about the game's rules and strategy on this forum's sister site...
I think most people play because it's a low volatility way to kill time. Most hands are pushes, and it's a slow game. If I play a game with 20 rounds per hour and a 1.8% HE/round and you play a game with 80 rounds per hour and a 0.65% HE/round, which of us is better off?
A lot of people play for one or more of these reasons:
All the cards get dealt out and your hand does not depend on how many other people are playing.
The game has a partially wild Joker that's fun to work with.
You get to set your hands your way, which can take advantage of the House Way, depending on what it is. House Way is almost always designed to NOT LOSE, as opposed to winning. That includes pushes. If you know what they will do (and you should ask), you can sometimes play to WIN and get an advantage.
You can bank after a losing hand to recoup your losses and win ties. Playing head to head, you can bank every other hand some places.
It's a good game for those who like to play a positive progressive. A lot of people like to do this, try for 2 in a row or 3 in a row, doubling each time, then leave.
The Fortune sidebet is a lot of fun IMO. I won't play without it.
It is a slow-moving, social game.
Most places will let you play 2 hands. That can help smooth out rough patches, because 2/3 of the time at least one of your hands will be better than the dealer's (disregarding ties) and can pay for the other.
It's very close to an even-money game, so you tend to lose very slowly in general, but can get ahead fast.
No he was wondering how people could play something that seems obviously bad and still like to play it. He was really just implying he is a superior human being with an advanced gambling sense.Quote: andysifLOL.
Someone complaining the "house edge" yet he can't figure out the commission %.
Quote: DJTeddyBearNo. They take $1.25 - that's 5%.
Actually, the edge is slightly higher since the banker wins copy hands. Of course, that's why you want to bank - to reduce the edge.
So how high are we talking here? Please show your source.
Secondly, as you said, it's slow and tedious. Hands go by slow; mostly it's just pushing or trading the same cheque back and forth. It's not the best game if you want to go home with a lot of money, but it's damn near the best if you just want to sit around and drink free beer all night, which I very much do like. I can go blow $100 at the bar and drink in a dark corner, or I could take that $100, play and have fun with random strangers, still get drunk, and maybe come away with more than -$100. It might not be +EV the way y'all compute it, but that's +EV to me.
And lastly, it's mellow. You never get the serious, or the hard assed. Mostly, it's just a bunch of superstitious Asians, who I never fail to have a good time with. I'm no expert on every game, many I never even played even once. But PGP is absolutely the only game I can play and have fun with, the only game I can tolerate for more than 20 minutes at a time. Too poor for Craps, too not-insane for American roulette, and BJ is worse than Chinese water torture.
Quote: beachbumbabsA lot of people play for one or more of these reasons:
All the cards get dealt out and your hand does not depend on how many other people are playing.
The game has a partially wild Joker that's fun to work with.
You get to set your hands your way, which can take advantage of the House Way, depending on what it is. House Way is almost always designed to NOT LOSE, as opposed to winning. That includes pushes. If you know what they will do (and you should ask), you can sometimes play to WIN and get an advantage.
You can bank after a losing hand to recoup your losses and win ties. Playing head to head, you can bank every other hand some places.
It's a good game for those who like to play a positive progressive. A lot of people like to do this, try for 2 in a row or 3 in a row, doubling each time, then leave.
The Fortune sidebet is a lot of fun IMO. I won't play without it.
It is a slow-moving, social game.
Most places will let you play 2 hands. That can help smooth out rough patches, because 2/3 of the time at least one of your hands will be better than the dealer's (disregarding ties) and can pay for the other.
It's very close to an even-money game, so you tend to lose very slowly in general, but can get ahead fast.
Each of these is a good reason and some of these provide an added factor of interest and entertainment as well as potential payout.
As gambling demographics change this is exactly what casinos will need, options from which a variety of like minded people can choose but which allows each of them a good measure of control over the risks and rates involved. Well, perhaps I should say "influence" rather than "control". I recently played Pai Gow Poker and now I plan to go back and do it right. Yeah, initially I was making more money on mindless MiniBacc and that sure is significant of an in itself, but I enjoyed the Pai Gow Poker much more than the "Heads or Tails" aspect of MiniBacc. I won't be Banking at Pai Gow next time, but I'm sure going to be doing progressives on the Fortune Side Bet.
Quote: FaceI can go blow $100 at the bar and drink in a dark corner, or I could take that $100, play and have fun with random strangers, still get drunk, and maybe come away with more than -$100. It might not be +EV the way y'all compute it, but that's +EV to me.
Bingo.
Craps pass/don't with or without odds is probably slightly better due to a lower house advantage while still having comparable number of decisions per hour. But pai gow poker is certainly more interesting. Plus you get to sit down.
Quote: NeutrinoI have previously asked about "Why do people play X" that do not make sense to me. Well, this time it isn't so much the house edge that's the issue, but rather the way the house edge presents itself.
I know that most people don't view house edge the way I do. Most people don't even have a concept of what house edge is. Having a mathematician telling you "Blackjack has a 0.5% house edge" probably won't even convince most people since they would think, hey, I'm in control, sure I lose a bit but I can double and split and maximize my profit.
It's the way pai gow presents itself that makes me think "Why would anyone play this game". The answers to "because they have no concept of house edge" can't even apply here because it's so intuitive.
First of all, let me state that optimal strategy in pai gow is supposed to be extremely difficult and hence, most people who play pai gow will play the house way or worse. So let's just assume they're playing the house way then...
You're doing the exactly same thing as the dealer. If you push you basically go again (no effect on bankroll, might as well pretend pushes do not exist), if you lose you lose, and if you win dealer takes 10% of your winnings.
I'm sure if you go up to your friends, no matter how dumb they are, and say "hey, want to play a coin flip game? You guess heads or tails. If you're wrong I get your money. If you're right you get my money and then I take 10% from it" they would say "hell no"
Really, how much more intuitive does a game have to be for people to know it's a bad game? I'll emphasize once again you're doing EXACTLY the same thing as the dealer but if you win, you win less. Anyone with a brain can tell this is a bad game.
The overall house edge in pai gow poker isn't that bad, it's just the way it presents itself as an extremely obvious lose-money game makes me wonder why people play this.
Another thread you started was about your not understanding why people develop gambling addictions. Now you don't get why people play Pai Gow.
Whets next? A thread expressing shock that people drive over the speed limit... A thread about how your amazed that people eat so many cookies...
Also, it's usually a good idea to understand the rules of a game before devoting an entire thread to your disdain for it,
It is one of my favorite games
Quote: beachbumbabsThe Fortune sidebet is a lot of fun IMO. I won't play without it.
Seriously, I think moderators who have opinions differing so markedly from that of the Wizard should give a cheerful disclaimer *each* time.
Is there anything else Michael says more firmly and repeatedly than "never bet the side bets" ?
And at least in Detroit, they offer a $5 progressive bet which is almost always technically a player-advantage bet, many times with "life-changing" money. How many times can you say that with a side-bet?
Quote: odiousgambitSeriously, I think moderators who have opinions differing so markedly from that of the Wizard should give a cheerful disclaimer *each* time.
Is there anything else Michael says more firmly and repeatedly than "never bet the side bets" ?
Quote: beachbumbabsThe Fortune sidebet is a lot of fun IMO.
Wiz champions the way to play financially smart. Babs offered her opinion on entertainment. I didn't see it as a contradiction.
You have made me wonder, though, whether the green automatically implies some sort of authority beyond enforcing the rules. Because I, personally, find value in other things besides the bottom line, as expressed in my reasons I play Pai Gow. I like to remind people of said value. But of course, my type of value also doesn't always align with Wiz's mantra. I'd hope most can read for content and understand what I'm trying to say.
I'd also like to remind that my "authority" extends no further than enforcing our simple rules. My math is at about the 9th grade level, and I'd not want anyone to read more into a post of mine than what it is lol =p
Quote: FaceYou have made me wonder, though, whether the green automatically implies some sort of authority beyond enforcing the rules.
If you are wondering, what does that say? It could to some person. But I personally just feel it is a tiny bit of a slap in the Wizardly face. A tiny one. A disclaimer would be fine.
What would you think of a volunteer for some organization who sometimes let it slip that some of that outfit's practices were BS?
Quote:my type of value also doesn't always align with Wiz's mantra. I'd hope most can read for content and understand what I'm trying to say.
sounds like a disclaimer! Perfectly acceptable.
Quote: odiousgambitIf you are wondering, what does that say? It could to some person. But I personally just feel it is a tiny bit of a slap in the Wizardly face. A tiny one. A disclaimer would be fine.
What would you think of a volunteer for some organization who sometimes let it slip that some of that outfit's practices were BS?
sounds like a disclaimer! Perfectly acceptable.
Almost four years with the same sig. You've given me reason to change it. Crisis averted ;)
Quote: Face... Hands go by slow; mostly it's just pushing or trading the same cheque back and forth. It's not the best game if you want to go home with a lot of money, but it's damn near the best if you just want to sit around and drink free beer all night, which I very much do like. I can go blow $100 at the bar and drink in a dark corner, or I could take that $100, play and have fun with random strangers, still get drunk, and maybe come away with more than -$100. It might not be +EV the way y'all compute it, but that's +EV to me.
And lastly, it's mellow. You never get the serious, or the hard assed. Mostly, it's just a bunch of superstitious Asians, who I never fail to have a good time with....
These.
I play pai gow poker when it's 4PM, I'm up or down a few hundred and dinner is at 6. I want to kill time without much chance of changing my bankroll status.
And I too enjoy playing with the type of people who play PGP. It's usually a fun, sociable table.
Quote: FinsRuleSo how high are we talking here? Please show your source.Quote: DJTeddyBearActually, the edge is slightly higher since the banker wins copy hands. Of course, that's why you want to bank - to reduce the edge.
Edge when using the House Way:
2.7212% when the dealer is banker.
0.2540% when the player is banker.
Source: https://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-poker/
For the record, I didn't realize the difference was so huge, until I looked it up to answer this question.
I'll be sure to always bank whenever I can.
Quote: DJTeddyBearEdge when using the House Way:
2.7212% when the dealer is banker.
0.2540% when the player is banker.
Source: https://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-poker/
For the record, I didn't realize the difference was so huge, until I looked it up to answer this question.
I'll be sure to always bank whenever I can.
If you are using decent setting strategy, doesn't that knock it down to 2.5x? Or am I just thinking about Dan's version?
Quote: odiousgambitSeriously, I think moderators who have opinions differing so markedly from that of the Wizard should give a cheerful disclaimer *each* time.
Is there anything else Michael says more firmly and repeatedly than "never bet the side bets" ?
Hmmm..."There is no winning system", perhaps? lol...
The Wiz is also an advocate of free speech. I'm happy to support him. But I didn't have to take a lockstep gambling test before he asked me to do this, either.
Yeah. That's why I specified "House Way". I.E. If you set your hand the house way, per that WoO page, those are the edges.Quote: FinsRuleIf you are using decent setting strategy, doesn't that knock it down to 2.5x? Or am I just thinking about Dan's version?
The same pages says if you use optimal strategy, the edges get knocked down to 2.5122% and almost zero for banking: 0.0442%
I just realized I never answered the original question: Why people play it.
Other than the obvious, "They like it", about half the hands push which makes it a nice slow paced game.
Of course, if you want a slower paced game, learn Pai Gow tiles. The mixing, stacking and dealing the tiles is somewhat time consuming.
Then for something even slower: Pai Gow Poker at Circus Circus. I don't know if it's still there, but I played there with Pai Gow Dan a couple years ago - on a table that didn't use a shuffling machine. The deal procedure was so crazy and convoluted, and time consuming, that it felt like we got maybe two hands every five minutes.
Quote: beachbumbabsThe Wiz is also an advocate of free speech.
Actually I am glad you are free to say what you want to say, otherwise your post would have been less interesting, so don't misunderstand.
suggestions below for something like "The Fortune sidebet is a lot of fun IMO. I won't play without it."
Although the HE is way beyond Wizard's approval, The Fortune sidebet is a lot of fun IMO. I won't play without it.
In spite of there being no Wizard Imprimatur on any sidebet, The Fortune sidebet is a lot of fun IMO. I won't play without it.
I promise not to belabor it any further.
that is you will lose a relatively predictable amount compared to other games. for example in 10 hours of play the middle 50% of players are within the interval [-16,0] units.
That's nice. l've been at a few BlackJack tables where I felt the guy next to me telling me to Double was about to add " or else " to his instructions.Quote: MoscaAnd I too enjoy playing with the type of people who play PGP. It's usually a fun, sociable table.
Quote: FleaStiffThat's nice. l've been at a few BlackJack tables where I felt the guy next to me telling me to Double was about to add " or else " to his instructions.
He wants you to win!
Quote: sodawaterIf you bet $100 and win you get $95 plus your original $100.
And if you bet $105 and win you get $100 plus your original $105.
But, yeah, if you don't bank, PGP is a suckers game. The edge is just too high.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceAnd if you bet $105 and win you get $100 plus your original $105.
Not where I play.
Quote: sodawaterNot where I play.
That's incredibly cheap of them; it's been a courtesy play everywhere I've been. We're talking about 25 cents. Geez.
Quote: RSVig for $105 wager is $6, right?
In NJ, if you bet $105 and win they pay $99.75. So commission is $5.25. They need their quarter.
I just recently got into it due to JB's strategy on the Wiz's odds site.
I am well aware I have a big disadvantage at 5 per cent comm. If the fortune bet is just a buck, I bet that also and the casino edge is more then 5 per cent on that bet.
I look at odds very closely, In Vegas, I only play 99.54% and above Video Poker.
I play dark side craps and simply make A don't bet. House has slim odds.
Poker tournament or cash, small rake and playing against others with varying skill so overall its probably a break even game for me.
Overall all, Pai Gow has the worst odds but to me is the most fun.
Video Poker is interesting but after say 50 or 100 hands, my eyes glaze over and I need a break.
Craps is fun but sometimes gets a little boring because I simply play the dark side. 1 bet and I simply watch the dice over and over.
Poker, tournament or cash. I used to play a lot but I am a very tight player so therefore don't get involved in a lot of hands which can get boring.
Pai Gow Poker, even with the commission, is the most fun for me.
You get 7 cards, most times its easy to set a hand, but sometimes you have to think. That's what I love. I actually play with a small index card with a shortened version of JB's strategy from the Wiz's odds site.
Its slow so my money does not drain fast, which I like. So slow that I try to get the seat on the left. With a right side seat, sometimes I forget what I have by the time the dealer turns over my cards.
Its fun socially. I've had rookies sit next to me and I help set their hands. At the Vegas Flamingo a few weeks ago, I got a really interesting hand with a joker that could be played several ways. It was fun because The dealer was curious about my hesitation so I showed her the hand. She said to play it one way then the pit boss looked over and said no and gave me another way to play it. Its really neat that now the pit boss is giving me advice to help me.
Sometimes a player will show everybody their hand to get help and then a discussion starts between players and dealer on the best way to play.
Its fun because players tend to win and lose as a group to the dealer. A lot of friendly chatter when the dealer has nothing.
I love the Fortune bet if its only a dollar. It makes the game funs because you can hit a longshot.
Too me, gambling is about fun. I always play with an amount I am willing and can afford to lose.
I never play the side bets. In my first session today, the young guy next to me was losing and said to me, " I have to hit one of these side bets." I told him it was a sucker bet. I explained it to him this way.
The game was designed for the casino to have the edge. I asked him "do you think that they added the side bet so that you could win more money or did they add the side bet so they can take more of your money?" He said "I know it's a sucker bet, but I would hate to get a straight flush and not have money on the side bet." I knew I couldn't get him to change his thinking on the side bet, so I kept quiet.
After he lost his original bankroll, he went into his pocket for more money. Some people just never learn.
Quote: FatGeezusI love playing PGP. Today I played 2 sessions. I won one and I lost one.
I never play the side bets. In my first session today, the young guy next to me was losing and said to me, " I have to hit one of these side bets." I told him it was a sucker bet. I explained it to him this way.
The game was designed for the casino to have the edge. I asked him "do you think that they added the side bet so that you could win more money or did they add the side bet so they can take more of your money?" He said "I know it's a sucker bet, but I would hate to get a straight flush and not have money on the side bet." I knew I couldn't get him to change his thinking on the side bet, so I kept quiet.
After he lost his original bankroll, he went into his pocket for more money. Some people just never learn.
I don't quite understand. He said he knew it was a sucker bet, but he wanted to play it because of the chance of hitting a big score. What didn't he learn?
In terms of sucker bets, there's a lot worse also.
Its about fun and its only a buck.
Say I lose 20 fortune bets in a row, lose a whole 20, big deal.
I simply play it for the fun factor.
At CET properties, the fortune bet is minimum 5 bucks. No way I'm making that bet.
I actually play live keno sometimes. I know its a terrible bet but I'm in Vegas for fun, a 1 dollar bet is about fun . I typically stay at the 4 Queens and bet sports at their small William Hill Sports book. Live keno just a few steps away, sometimes I'll make a 1 buck bet during timeouts and halftimes.
Sometimes its about having fun instead of odds.
No way I'm dumping real money into a sucker bet, but a buck here or there, why not have a little fun.
