This is why AP will never go away...

Table games auditor A says to table games auditor B.. see this shuffle? It's inefficient, it takes way too long. We lose 1.14 round/hour, lets streamline it and with an average wager of $100 we'll increase the hold by .44/hour, over one day it's 10.56, multiply by 365 days/year $3.8k, and 50 tables.. wow, I just saved the company $190,000!! gimme a raise!!! Their fellow grads pat the brilliant guy/girl on the back for their brilliance and go on their merry way. The old timer looks at Auditor/AKA dipshit A and thinks: if only you knew what you just did. But he's looking at a decent pension and about to retire.. no need to rock the boat. Perhaps, the oldtimer points out the flaw to the new hires.. who comment, "Come on man, only Rainman can do THAT, and he's a myth!"

Thank god for stupid people.. thank god, that even though this site exists to point out the abundant errors in their ways, the hubris of casino personnel clouds their judgment. Thank your host for exceptional limits on Mississippi Stud and a private table for all your friends.. a loss rebate? Sure buddy.. after all I AM a degenerate and need all the help I can get. Hey bud, this dealer is rude (too strong) is there someone nicer (greener) to take my money? What??? She made a mistake? You want me to return how much?? The other joint never asks me to do this? How do I know I didn't get shorted?? Fine if you insist, I'll pay but then I'm gonna leave!! All is forgiven.. sweet, boy you guys really know customer service!!

Phil Ivey walks in and says "I'm superstitious, i need to turn the cards to change my luck!" The harvard grads lick their chops and rub their hands thinking, sure buddy... we're here for you!! Anything you want mr. overrolled superstar.. after all we're here for you!! The underpaid supervisor and even more underpaid last line of defense video jockey screams, "This is wrong!!"

Nevermind, the PhD's have spoken... the grinder with streetsmarts has been trumped and pushed out by the accountant with a doctorate. Thank god for stupid people.. thank god that our higher education churns out number crunchers without a lick of common sense. And while this will rub most on this site raw, thank god for 6:5 blackjack... a whole new breed of complete morons has been empowered!!

Keep applauding yourselves for catching that nefarious card counter on one of your two double deck games... obviously you have the pulse of the AP community... people are stupid... find your nearest moron and thank them! Some of the dumbest people truly believe they are the smartest around...meanwhile, the real threat moves undetected.... unappreciated... unhindered..

Quote: LVJackal

Two questions. (1), what is the relationship between a Jackal and a Bear? And (2), what is your point, summarized in a coherent sentence or two?

Quote: teliot

Two questions. (1), what is the relationship between a Jackal and a Bear? And (2), what is your point, summarized in a coherent sentence or two?

FWIW, I read that as completely a rant about casino management moving from guys who came up in the business to accountants who have no feel for it or understanding of the vulnerabilities when only worrying about profit, and what a favor the casinos are doing AP's by following that philosophy. I could be wrong.

deleted

Quote: beachbumbabs

FWIW, I read that as completely a rant about casino management moving from guys who came up in the business to accountants who have no feel for it or understanding of the vulnerabilities when only worrying about profit, and what a favor the casinos are doing AP's by following that philosophy. I could be wrong.

I read it more or less the same way, but why rant? Who is he ranting at? Or is just gloating? Or is it "they are so stupid!" Or is it directed at some individuals in particular. I don't quite get the motivation.

As for question (1) FYI, LVBear is a famous moniker.

deleted

Quote: beachbumbabs

FWIW, I read that as completely a rant about casino management moving from guys who came up in the business to accountants who have no feel for it or understanding of the vulnerabilities when only worrying about profit, and what a favor the casinos are doing AP's by following that philosophy. I could be wrong.

I'd say that's an accurate summation.

Not sure if I agree with the point though. I believe casinos will always be on the lookout for possibly player edges.

As former surveillance, I read it thinking the words were pulled from my own head.

Running a casino takes both book smarts and street smarts. If either one becomes dominant, the joint suffers.

Sounds like LV is lamenting what so many here lament - too many accountants, not enough old timers.

Definitely a rant about accountants & finance guys in casino management roles. But I'm confused...putting idiots in charge is a GOOD thing. Creating opportunity is a GOOD thing. Why complain about the members of leadership, when that leadership creates vulnerabilities that the OP ostensibly enjoys taking advantage of?

I'm unsure of the relationship between jackals and bears, but I think we need a WOV mascot. Vulture? Hawk? Asp? Jackal? Maybe players can be cobras, and people in the business can be mongooses.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I know. I've read his blog.

I hole-carded 1CP with LVBear back in the day. A true pro and as nice a man as you'll ever know. LVB would never write in the style of LVJ above, but I wonder if LVJ took his moniker for some reason related to LVB.

What rubs me the wrong way about this rant is the seemingly commonly held belief that there are people with either "book smarts" or "street smarts" These "harvard" grads can't handle it in the real world.

Give me a break.

Your rant is like a cliched buddy cop movie.

Yes, everyone coming out of college are simply "number crunchers" without a lick of common sense. I guess our society will never be able to function once these genius "old schoolers" die. Once again, give me a break.

Quote: FinsRule

What rubs me the wrong way about this rant is the seemingly commonly held belief that there are people with either "book smarts" or "street smarts" These "harvard" grads can't handle it in the real world.

Give me a break.

Your rant is like a cliched buddy cop movie.

Yes, everyone coming out of college are simply "number crunchers" without a lick of common sense. I guess our society will never be able to function once these genius "old schoolers" die. Once again, give me a break.

+1 IMO People are getting smarter and smarter. Sure some kids are getting fatter and lazier but not everybody.

I also love how people live in the past, the good old days. Now they just sit on the computer and bitch about how bad it is now and how good it was back then. How, they knew this person or that person. How great they used to be, and all the things they have done. (You banged a hot chick once? Wow, who you banging now?) Ask them what happened? They blame everything on others.

Sure its fun to talk about things in the past, we all love a good story. Even some good old days, bad beat life story's are great. But, the grumpy bitter blaming and conspiracy crap is just tiring. Move past it and get with the times. When things change, change with them, or I guess you can sit around dwell in the past and fade away.

Aiyeah, I have no idea why every single time i get plastered I find a computer.... (why i deleted Facebook)


Drunken rant, and I apologize. Had a Grosjean moment..

Me and a friend started shooting the breeze on all the plays being revealed (over a couple drinks of course), was a conversation along the lines of: can you believe this is on an open forum? We can all thank Ivey for butchering edge sorting for the foreseeable future. This of course led to (more drinks), what is the weakest game out there now.. why 6:5, because its unprotected, weakest floors, weakest dealers and perceived to be the safest game in the house only an idiot would play.... add more drinks.. and the theory, it doesn't matter WHAT you say online.. how carefully you point the way... the bean counters are always right, and always wrong.

Ivey was HUGE, but in 5 years maybe less, the play will be forgotten and recycled. You can't pull it on Baccarat, but it's still out there, on MS, TCP, BJ and other games. An eye for only the bottom line creates holes.. these holes destroy the savings to the bottom line. The house puts its strongest people on the weakest edge.. the 1% card counter is feared, yet the 10% play on tourist game is ignored.

APHeat and Discount Gambling can scream and yell, hey, this is going on... yet for the most part they are ignored. A million voices can scream: this is why you need a riffle, a strip, a turn, a good tuck, a solid knowledge of Basic Strategy, for pete's sake... USE A CUT CARD.

And thus, after thoroughly crapfaced, I ranted, vented, proved my uber douchiness and posted here... I was doing so good...

The main point of my rant still holds true however, AP opportunities will always exist.. why.. because.. we forget, we ignore and do not appreciate the guys with experience and no degree... we know what a card counter earns and fear those with the skill.. we DO NOT know how much we give up by paying a 22 on BJ Switch or Free Bet Blackjack, by pushing a pair bet on a tie, but not requiring the super Blind on four card poker...

Tying in the old with the new... Benny Binion knew he gave up a ton on 2:1 Blackjack on Christmas, but he also knew.. it was a game we played... for fun and profit... the AP was not the enemy, old stories tell of Christmas gatherings in WW1 between the germans and the british... where they drank and partied then went back and tried to kill eachother.

Im rambling... trying not to rant.. Loveman fleeced the tourist, crushed the recreational gambler.. inflated his theoretical numbers and cut the payroll to his most important people... people he did not appreciate.. people in a game he did not understand... because he saw only theoretical and HA. Loveman said, here.. i have a 1.67 edge on 6:5 no counter could possibly overcome.. and he was right.. he then laid off his best and most highly paid people, cut funding to his safety net... gave himself a raise for his ingenuity and simultaneously exposed his company.

Why should I tell this man making 6 million a year why his head is up his tail? Why would i explain hiring mentally unstable security officers at 9/hr is a bad idea? Why would I tell the genius that keeping a 30 year veteran at 25/hr is better than a greenie at 18/hr .. why would I save the 6 million dollar man a single banknote when my insurance just got jacked 150%, my bonus put on hold and my friends laid off... now i kinda am ranting.. yessir.. pay the reduced benefits.. take your stock options while you drive the corporation to the ground..

Praise allah and hallelujah you have a phd ... no one else could possibly understand... 6:5 is your answer sir, no one could possibly overcome that HA....

Quote: Face

As former surveillance, I read it thinking the words were pulled from my own head.

Running a casino takes both book smarts and street smarts. If either one becomes dominant, the joint suffers.

Sounds like LV is lamenting what so many here lament - too many accountants, not enough old timers.

+1, agree.

People, including casino management, are either "fully sharp and up on things" or they're not, and this takes both book (procedural and math) knowledge, as well as street-wise common sense. Also to be factored in is a bit of corporate jockeying or taking ownership on some sort-sighted solutions that may work simply out of luck or the player mix.

A lot of old timers have seen a lot, but many are also many of forty years experience as six months repeated 80 times, too, for that matter, repeating the same old same olds and applying it again and again with the same non-results.

The question of cut card depth penetration is properly handled by applying what is needed on a game that is as flawed as BJ, game-protection wise: deep for ploppies and shallow for pros - if you're not using CSMs and 8-deck shufflers, where shallow penetration is less time-consuming. One size does not fit all.

It's easy to paint casino managers as dumb jerks, especially if on either side of the issue, and yes, examples abound. I think of the gaming industry like many other industries, a mix of good people and jerks.

Quote: LVJackal

Aiyeah, I have no idea why every single time i get plastered I find a computer.... (why i deleted Facebook)


Drunken rant, and I apologize. Had a Grosjean moment..

Me and a friend started shooting the breeze on all the plays being revealed (over a couple drinks of course), was a conversation along the lines of: can you believe this is on an open forum? We can all thank Ivey for butchering edge sorting for the foreseeable future. This of course led to (more drinks), what is the weakest game out there now.. why 6:5, because its unprotected, weakest floors, weakest dealers and perceived to be the safest game in the house only an idiot would play.... add more drinks.. and the theory, it doesn't matter WHAT you say online.. how carefully you point the way... the bean counters are always right, and always wrong.

Ivey was HUGE, but in 5 years maybe less, the play will be forgotten and recycled. You can't pull it on Baccarat, but it's still out there, on MS, TCP, BJ and other games. An eye for only the bottom line creates holes.. these holes destroy the savings to the bottom line. The house puts its strongest people on the weakest edge.. the 1% card counter is feared, yet the 10% play on tourist game is ignored.

APHeat and Discount Gambling can scream and yell, hey, this is going on... yet for the most part they are ignored. A million voices can scream: this is why you need a riffle, a strip, a turn, a good tuck, a solid knowledge of Basic Strategy, for pete's sake... USE A CUT CARD.

And thus, after thoroughly crapfaced, I ranted, vented, proved my uber douchiness and posted here... I was doing so good...

The main point of my rant still holds true however, AP opportunities will always exist.. why.. because.. we forget, we ignore and do not appreciate the guys with experience and no degree... we know what a card counter earns and fear those with the skill.. we DO NOT know how much we give up by paying a 22 on BJ Switch or Free Bet Blackjack, by pushing a pair bet on a tie, but not requiring the super Blind on four card poker...

Tying in the old with the new... Benny Binion knew he gave up a ton on 2:1 Blackjack on Christmas, but he also knew.. it was a game we played... for fun and profit... the AP was not the enemy, old stories tell of Christmas gatherings in WW1 between the germans and the british... where they drank and partied then went back and tried to kill eachother.

Im rambling... trying not to rant.. Loveman fleeced the tourist, crushed the recreational gambler.. inflated his theoretical numbers and cut the payroll to his most important people... people he did not appreciate.. people in a game he did not understand... because he saw only theoretical and HA. Loveman said, here.. i have a 1.67 edge on 6:5 no counter could possibly overcome.. and he was right.. he then laid off his best and most highly paid people, cut funding to his safety net... gave himself a raise for his ingenuity and simultaneously exposed his company.

Why should I tell this man making 6 million a year why his head is up his tail? Why would i explain hiring mentally unstable security officers at 9/hr is a bad idea? Why would I tell the genius that keeping a 30 year veteran at 25/hr is better than a greenie at 18/hr .. why would I save the 6 million dollar man a single banknote when my insurance just got jacked 150%, my bonus put on hold and my friends laid off... now i kinda am ranting.. yessir.. pay the reduced benefits.. take your stock options while you drive the corporation to the ground..

Praise allah and hallelujah you have a phd ... no one else could possibly understand... 6:5 is your answer sir, no one could possibly overcome that HA....

Jackal,

You should come by more often. Interesting sober, interesting drunk.

AP is like retail loss -- it's just part of the business. Card counting in blackjack is possible because the underlying game of blackjack is inherently defective from a protection standpoint. EORs for single cards are significant, unlike in baccarat. So countermeasures like shallow penetration and many decks were developed. And, just like retail loss prevention, it's possible for the pendulum to swing too far in one direction or the other.

The goal should be optimization -- to maximize monthly revenues given a current (and/or anticipated) level of AP activity. It's obviously wrong to shuffle a 6D shoe after every hand, and probably also wrong to not use a cut card at all, but where should penetration be set? If monthly profits for a given property are greater with a deeper penetration and therefore more hands/hour, why shouldn't deeper penetration be the norm? It's a question that can be answered with analytics, including knowing the relationship between game rules and AP activity levels. I'm not sure how many casinos actually do optimize their game operations for AP activity -- as opposed to just having paranoid and financially inefficient gut reactions thereto -- but it's certainly possible to do.

Math Extremist - Exactly. They understand that some AP is unavoidable. It's just part of running the business. It's not that they aren't street smart enough to know it's happening.