legal casino theft??
He turned the freeplay over and was pretty lucky winning a few hundred dollars.
But the casino caught him and backroomed him.
They insisted he turn over the players cards or they would call the police and since he had been in trouble with law enforcement in the past did not feel like taking any chances.
But then they insisted he turn over the cash vouchers for several hundred bucks for them to let him go. He reluctantly handed those over.
They are listed as bearer instruments and I cannot see how they could legally confiscate them. There was no freeplay on them and he had put a few of his own dollars into it as well.
They gave him a receipt with the specific writing that he could never claim the amount listed on the vouchers.
Then they let him go so he obviously committed no crime. If the casino was claiming the couple hundred bucks was theirs then they would have called the police to file charges of theft. I know of no casino that releases you once you have returned their stolen money.
So if the guy didn't steal the money under the law, then hasn't the casino stolen his money?
I told him to file a small claims suit since he has the receipt and I fail to see how a security guard can make such a decision--that should be up to the gambling commission or the courts but he's too scared.
And also you understand fully the legal ramifications of the casino filing a counter suit in the real courts regarding this event as well as past promotional events your friends may have been involved with. A countersuit that will cost them pennies in comparison to cleaning out you friends bank account in legal fees.
And you understand the ramifications of your friends past criminal record on this case,.
Once you say yes...that you are in total control of all the facts and can make a rational legal decision....then I agree you gave good advice,
Quote: darkozA friend of mine used multiple players accounts to earn points for the daily special which included ten bucks in free gambling. He earned five so he had fifty dollars in freeplay.
He turned the freeplay over and was pretty lucky winning a few hundred dollars.
But the casino caught him and backroomed him.
They insisted he turn over the players cards or they would call the police and since he had been in trouble with law enforcement in the past did not feel like taking any chances.
But then they insisted he turn over the cash vouchers for several hundred bucks for them to let him go. He reluctantly handed those over.
They are listed as bearer instruments and I cannot see how they could legally confiscate them. There was no freeplay on them and he had put a few of his own dollars into it as well.
They gave him a receipt with the specific writing that he could never claim the amount listed on the vouchers.
Then they let him go so he obviously committed no crime. If the casino was claiming the couple hundred bucks was theirs then they would have called the police to file charges of theft. I know of no casino that releases you once you have returned their stolen money.
So if the guy didn't steal the money under the law, then hasn't the casino stolen his money?
I told him to file a small claims suit since he has the receipt and I fail to see how a security guard can make such a decision--that should be up to the gambling commission or the courts but he's too scared.
I can see your line of thinking on this, but IMO, as a person who has belonged to 40-50 player's clubs over the years, your rationale falls off the rails with your friend using multiple players accounts to get more than his allotment of coupons. The coupons themselves very likely had "non-transferrable: one per customer" language on them (I say that because virtually all of mine do). So your friend attempted to defraud the casino, and they confiscated the illegally won proceeds. I would say they were within their rights to do so. But without the language of the player's club cards and the coupons in front of me, that would be speculation, not fact.
For example, most cereal companies offer gifts in return for points earned by purchasing their cereal--i.e its exactly the same as the casino as its a customer rewards program.
Those offers usually state "one per household."
If your neighbors decide to throw out their cereal boxes and you ask for them to give you the box-tops and get a second free gift, the cereal company cannot call the police and accuse you of stealing the free item.
If a husband uses his wives card is he stealing?
Unless someone who is an attorney can clarify this, I don't believe there were any laws broken--rules yes, but no laws.
So far this post gets the First Place award for grasp of the real world and admirable restraint. Statutes often give merchants the right to charge three times the price of a shoplifted item and if the casino were to allege that the printed slips were being taken off the premises under different names they might easily invoke such a statute. They don't have to win. The casino would certainly yank any case out of Small Claims and put it in a real court wherein your friend would be all at sea without an attorney to represent him. They don't have to consider one name to be valid and the others to be invalid but would consider the entire scheme one enterprise so your friend might be in real trouble. Did the casino overstep the law a bit? Perhaps. Should your friend even attempt to do anything about it? No. Leave well enough alone. A David and Goliath battle can be fun, but usually its only fun for Goliath and Goliath's many attorneys. No lawyer would touch such a low dollar sum case.Quote: LarrySI f you gave him that advice, I am supposing that you have read all the fine print attached to the players card, and to the promotions he used, and understand the law well enough to make the claim with certainty that your freind broke no laws.
And also you understand fully the legal ramifications of the casino filing a counter suit in the real courts regarding this event as well as past promotional events your friends may have been involved with. A countersuit that will cost them pennies in comparison to cleaning out you friends bank account in legal fees.
And you understand the ramifications of your friends past criminal record on this case,.
Once you say yes...that you are in total control of all the facts and can make a rational legal decision....then I agree you gave good advice,
Was your friend trespassed from the property for what he had done? If he was then, if and when he goes back to the casino, even to state his case, then he can be arrested for trespassing. This is a legal matter and he would then get in trouble also perhaps for his previous transgressions.
As for whether the casinos actually stole his money I cannot answer. Still, I would be careful about exactly what you suggest to your friend he does until you have the full story from him.
Find out if he was trespassed for his actions. I would assume that trespass would be the bare bones minimum the casinos would do.
Below is an article about a very similar situation. Make your own conclusions.
http://delaware.newszap.com/centraldelaware/129594-70/four-arrested-after-alleged-dover-downs-scheme
Quote: NeutrinoStrange, I thought I remember hearing from bob naresian that multiple player cards are legal. Something along the line that you're using an alias and that is legal.
It's legal to use an alias. As in one alias. Using multiple names to open multiple accounts really isn't the same thing, though.
So to clarify, he did not open multiple accounts falsely. He borrowed the cards from family members who willingly gave the cards to him so he could collect their comps after they had legitimately gambled on them. They had no plans to return to the casino and didn't want the comps to go to waste. He then earned further points for additional comps.
I read the news article from the previous post and I would hardly equate an employee embezzling by falsely loading freeplay with this situation. My friend earned all the comps or his friends earned them before giving him the card with actual gambling. The issue was he was claiming the comps instead of the named person on the card.
What exactlly happened in the backroom? Was he roughed up? Did they take pictures of him?
He was given paperwork never to return for life
they took his picture
Quote: darkozHe was not roughed up tho they wouldn't allow him to leave until he handed over the cards and vouchers.
He was given paperwork never to return for life
they took his picture
That means he is trespassed. If he again sets foot in the casino then they have grounds to call law enforcement and have him arrested. This is irrefutable unless he gets a court order that instructs the casino to lift the trespass. It has happened before but it is up to the person who got trepassed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the trespass was either unlwaful or illegally enacted.
My suggestion, although you never asked for it is to let this one go. There is very little that your friend can do here. If he tries to fight the trespass then the casino can easily prove why they evicted him. Also going up against the casino to prove that they stole from him.......good luck again.
My personal opinion is that your friend broke the law by unlawfully gaining access to freeplay that he didn't earn. The casino was within their rights to try and prosecute but due to the amount, they decided against it. (Anything less than $250 is considered a misdemeanor, anything over, a felony in NV).
Just let it go and get on with it, othewise, good luck!!
What are you talking about? He did earn it.Quote: Tomspur
My personal opinion is that your friend broke the law by unlawfully gaining access to freeplay that he didn't earn.
Quote: AxelWolfWhat are you talking about? He did earn it.
He didn't earn the points from the other card which he played with and won money. (The cards belonging to his "friends")
Not true, there are many reasons the might not call. (Was this in AC?) Why cause a commotion and wast time, if he is willing to give back the money, they think they were cheated out of in the first place, with no force. He gave it back, they didn't steal it. He had a choice, he just chose not to have the police get involved. Just like the casino didn't want to get them involved.Quote: darkoz
Then they let him go so he obviously committed no crime. If the casino was claiming the couple hundred bucks was theirs then they would have called the police to file charges of theft. I know of no casino that releases you once you have returned their stolen money.
So if the guy didn't steal the money under the law, then hasn't the casino stolen his money?
.
He himself knew he was in a grey area or he wouldn't have cared about his past problems with law enforcement.
What he did was against the rules. I'm not judging, that's his business. He had to know this was not what he should have been doing in the first place again im not judging. But once he made the choice to take that risk he should accept the consequences and move on. They asked him to give up the the ill-gotten gains and he did, If he felt he was being wronged he should have let the police get involved right then. He should be content with the fact nothing more came of this.
It was his money and the results of the freeplay combined.
Quote: PBguyYes it's theft from the casino if you fraudulently obtain benefits that you aren't entitled to - such as playing free play using someone else's card.
H'mmm....custom of the industry?
I mean what casino goes after married couples who play on each others cards?
What about Rich Uncle who visits Vegas each year playing on Rich Uncle's card but on final day of his vacation hands over Favorite Niece's card. Plays all day long and runs up her comps. The casino knows full well his name is not Stephanie. The casino knows full well Stephanie will be using the comps.
What about Retirement Home Bus Driver who goes to Kiosk and swipes over 200 player club cards every day. Only 35 people fit in the bus, but he swipes card for all those in the home who are not there thus qualifying their cards for entry into drawing for the car?
There is also a difference in concept between This Card is Non Transferable and The Benefits obtained by this card are non transferable. A person usually has a right to make an assignment. (Thats assignment, not assignation, folks).
Sort of a difficult situation for someone with prior trouble with the law. Its like backrooming a girl who is not particularly young or stunning and who has drug convictions. She can't really afford a good lawyer and she doesn't appear particularly photogenic in a town filled with topless showgirls and stunning young models. A jury will hear about the convictions and any award is not likely to be high.
Quote: darkozJust texted him. He says they confiscated over $750 in cash vouchers
So earlier on the story was for a "couple hundred bucks", now it is for over $750?
That is a big jump but I concede you may not have been privvy to the exact amount earlier on.
Your friend can be thankful then that the casino chose not to get the cops involved. I think they would have arrested him on suspicion of theft. They would have had the cards of other people, time he inserted each one into a slot machine, cash out amounts from each machine (which they could then link back to the freeplay used from each card individually). I think they would have had a strong case against your friend.
That, together with his priors would have him up chocolate creek without a lollipop stick!
I still think casinos have an industry practice that they may no longer be quite comfortable with but in reality people do indeed trade cards back and forth. I mean can you really and truly see a casino not knowing the bus driver is swiping 200 cards a day for all those absent retirees who never the less want to be in the drawing each and every day? Can you really see a Pit Boss claiming that he thought 65 year old Rich Uncle who was wined and dined by the casino for two weeks was actually a 24 year old female named Stefanie Niece on the last day when he played with her card all day long? And what is electronic linkage of a card with another card but an electronic way of achieving a physical transfer of the card?
So if only it was a better case (bigger damage award) and a better plaintiff (young, stunning female in tears) there might be an opportunity to argue these issues in court or before the Gaming Board.
Quote: mickeycrimmI know a promotion scrambler who was arrested in the 4 Queens a few years back for multi-accounting a cashback promotion. Don't know the outcome of the case.
In this case I think the promotion scrambler was using the cards of his friends to run the action and there had been several cashouts of the cashback.
Quote: mickeycrimmIn this case I think the promotion scrambler was using the cards of his friends to run the action and there had been several cashouts of the cashback.
Also, this promotion scrambler was from Carson City, was well known, and highly respected for his video poker skill, in the video poker advantage play community.
I guess im confused. I thought they had a promotion where you earned x amount of points and got 10 bucks in free play after doing so. If that's the case, he did earn the free play IMO.Quote: TomspurHe didn't earn the points from the other card which he played with and won money. (The cards belonging to his "friends")
It really dose not matter. We don't have all the facts and now they are changing. It may also matter what state this is in.
Free play supposedly has no cash value, if they call it free play and its free, I'm not sure how you can steal it ;)
the free-play on the cards the particular day he got caught had to be earned that day by playing first--he placed all five cards in slot machines and gambled until he earned the ten points. Its the main reason the casino caught him--he kept switching cards during play and then had to collect the comp later.
The casino did not stop him while he was losing money gambling(and earning). They waited till he collected the extra comps.
I don't understand what the mans criminal record has to do with this case aside from his being nervous about dealing with police. If a man with a criminal record is robbed of his money he has every right to seek remuneration. Convicted criminals do give up certain rights but not that one.
Since everyone seems to think its an issue, twelve years ago the guy got stone drunk somewhere (not sure where--a bar or a party) and fought a man. He woke up in handcuffs and was informed he had murdered the guy by punching him so hard the guy hit his head.
He served ten years for manslaughter.
He did his time, works a regular nine to five, raises his family and was given some of his relatives casino cards.
Since it's not me, I can only state those are the facts as I know it. If I find out differently, I'll let you know.
Never assume.Quote: darkoz...They let him go so he obviously committed no crime. If the casino was claiming the couple hundred bucks was theirs then they would have called the police to file charges of theft. I know of no casino that releases you once you have returned their stolen money.
Filing a police report would have served no purpose other than to harass and cause headaches for the offender.
Plus it avoids the headaches to pursue legal action, which is pointless since they got what they wanted.
Both sides would present their case--one would win, one would lose. Simple.
I checked Bob Nersessians website and there is clear wording that this guy did not break the law by collecting free comps that were promised to other people when he had their permission to collect them. This case does not occur in Nevada or anywhere near there and is too small for him to take anyway.
The casino would not pursue the matter further. A lawsuit against him--the guy is a dishwasher making 8 bucks an hour. Doubt the casino would collect on any size sum--the amount they took from him would be their total damages which they recouped so I don't see this as a major court trial. And I doubt they can press charges after the fact for two reasons - 1) the act would be an obvious attempt at reprisal and 2) the man did nothing illegal.
If anyone can point to a legal statute in any state which says that a person who obtains a free gift meant for someone else with that other persons permission is a crime please let me know.
In fact the only difference between the rules being broken and not is the cardholder gave this person their comps(through handing him their players card) before they collected them, not after.
Had these five players shown up, taken the comps, gambled themselves and then handed the $750 dollars to this person, there would be the exact same result but nothing the casino could have said.
"so now the amount is for $750. A few posts ago it was for a couple hundred"
Actually, in the original post I stated he won a couple hundred and they confiscated vouchers worth several hundred. I just didn't know the exact amount. I'm sure my friend didn't give me the exact to the penny amount either but was giving me a rounded figure.
Quote: darkoz
I checked Bob Nersessians website and there is clear wording that this guy did not break the law by collecting free comps that were promised to other people when he had their permission to collect them. This case does not occur in Nevada or anywhere near there and is too small for him to take anyway.
The casino would not pursue the matter further. A lawsuit against him--the guy is a dishwasher making 8 bucks an hour. Doubt the casino would collect on any size sum--the amount they took from him would be their total damages which they recouped so I don't see this as a major court trial. And I doubt they can press charges after the fact for two reasons - 1) the act would be an obvious attempt at reprisal and 2) the man did nothing illegal.
It really doesn't matter that your friend didn't break any Nevada laws if the case didn't occur in Nevada. Also, if laws were broken in the jurisdiction in which this occurred, the casino could pursue the matter further by pressing charges at a later date.
I am sure somewhere in the fine print there is a "non-transferrable" clause for that reason.
It was pointed out that casinos dont prosecute husband and wives using each others comps....and that is true. But its a rule and not a state law.
Its a rule at movie theaters,..."no outside food"...since theaters make very little if any profit on the ticket sale, and they have to clean up after the "eating in the dark" croud which costs money.
so if. someone is trying to smuggle in a buffet of food,,,,THEY WILL SEND THE PERSON OUT. But many people have smuggled in a can of soda, a bottle of water, a snickers bar. As in many things in life, its a matter of extremes that causes issues.
The promotion is like an agreement between the casino and the customer, ie a civil matter not a criminal matter and a court would decide which party is right.
And most probably the court will find in favour of the casino since the other party did not follow the rules of the promotion .
I guess if she got away with it all these years with technically other people's freeplay then it's not as severe as the OP indicated.
Very simple indeed.
It states: "This person is excluded for the following reason(s):
It then lists line by line every possible offense and the relevant penal code with a check box--prostitution, theft, drug distribution, assault and battery, trespass, property damage, cheating and illegally altering wagers are all listed.
On his paperwork, none are checked off. At the bottom "Other" is checked and handwritten is the words "Multiple Cards"
Below that are several time periods for exclusion with the final one being "life" and that one is check-marked.
1) The casino is private property and they can trespass/exclude you for hwatever reason they see fit. In this case they had decided that your friend had used freeplay that he did not "completely" earn. Again, this is their prerogative. Is it 100% correct, I would say NO but that is what they have decided to go with.
2) Your friend has been trespassed for life so if he goes back there he can legally be arrested for trespassing on private property.
3) The only choice your friend has is to take the casino to court. He has to actually accuse them of something and then he has to prove that what they had done was unlawful. Good luck.......
This is a nasty little situation we have here and it isn't one that has an easy answer. The casino operated within their rules and regulations and it appears to me that they have followed their internal procedures.
It will be up to your friend to prove that he had done nothing wrong and that the casino kept his money unlawfully. This, in my mind is the full and final issue.
Good luck to him and I hope he learns from this escapade!
I have two issues with this situation:
1. They not only confiscated the guy's winnings, but his buy-in as well. I see absolutely no reasonable justification for this.
2. As for the "winnings" portion of the tickets, they chose to let him gamble rather than stop him immediately. It seems that they decided to take a little freeroll here. I think that once they take his bet they should be obligated to pay it if it wins, particularly if they knew what he was doing as they were taking the bets.
I have no problems with the trespass part of it, but the confiscation of money seems like it is well beyond their rights. It seems like they are trying to bully him, figuring that he will be scared to go to the authorities. This seems like theft, pure and simple. I would fight it through the proper channels.
Quote: darkozsome answers to above posts:
the free-play on the cards the particular day he got caught had to be earned that day by playing first--he placed all five cards in slot machines and gambled until he earned the ten points. Its the main reason the casino caught him--he kept switching cards during play and then had to collect the comp later.
The casino did not stop him while he was losing money gambling(and earning). They waited till he collected the extra comps.
I don't understand what the mans criminal record has to do with this case aside from his being nervous about dealing with police. If a man with a criminal record is robbed of his money he has every right to seek remuneration. Convicted criminals do give up certain rights but not that one.
Since everyone seems to think its an issue, twelve years ago the guy got stone drunk somewhere (not sure where--a bar or a party) and fought a man. He woke up in handcuffs and was informed he had murdered the guy by punching him so hard the guy hit his head.
He served ten years for manslaughter.
He did his time, works a regular nine to five, raises his family and was given some of his relatives casino cards.
Since it's not me, I can only state those are the facts as I know it. If I find out differently, I'll let you know.
Well if manslaughter is a felony, which i believe it is, then he would not be allowed to gamble in Illinois or Indiana, if they knew that information..
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWhat state is this in? Is there a gaming commission?
I have two issues with this situation:
1. They not only confiscated the guy's winnings, but his buy-in as well. I see absolutely no reasonable justification for this.
2. As for the "winnings" portion of the tickets, they chose to let him gamble rather than stop him immediately. It seems that they decided to take a little freeroll here. I think that once they take his bet they should be obligated to pay it if it wins, particularly if they knew what he was doing as they were taking the bets.
I have no problems with the trespass part of it, but the confiscation of money seems like it is well beyond their rights. It seems like they are trying to bully him, figuring that he will be scared to go to the authorities. This seems like theft, pure and simple. I would fight it through the proper channels.
In my opinion if I had "clean hands" I would have no problem going up against a big casino. But he doesnt. He has past criminal issues. He probalby doesnt have alot of money to hire an attorney if the casino wanted to play hardball in a seperate suit in the courts. He admitidly used other peoples non transferrable comps.
Yes the casino might have purposely been on a freeroll just to see what happens. But they could easily claim that by the time it was brought to their attention, and they did the proper research to get all ther ducks in a row....they reacted as soon as they could. THey can parade witnesses who will gladly testify in their favor(truthfully or not), they have video,and electronic proof of various cards/coupons being used.
It seems to me its a no brainer. Walk away. Avoid any additional expense or actions.
Quote: LarrySIn my opinion if I had "clean hands" I would have no problem going up against a big casino. But he doesnt. He has past criminal issues. He probalby doesnt have alot of money to hire an attorney if the casino wanted to play hardball in a seperate suit in the courts. He admitidly used other peoples non transferrable comps.
Yes the casino might have purposely been on a freeroll just to see what happens. But they could easily claim that by the time it was brought to their attention, and they did the proper research to get all ther ducks in a row....they reacted as soon as they could. THey can parade witnesses who will gladly testify in their favor(truthfully or not), they have video,and electronic proof of various cards/coupons being used.
It seems to me its a no brainer. Walk away. Avoid any additional expense or actions.
This is like a gut punch for me but I agree with LarryS here...........
I do have some useful advice, but there seems to be something that's missing or wasn't told to you.
without mentioning too much to him I brought up the subject and he told me they caught a guy with 150 players cards last week and several more people with dozens of cards.
They go to the e-games like roulette or craps and make the ten points they need for the bonus free-play betting two cards against each other, like pass, don't pass and then when they are finished switching cards, they have like fifteen hundred bucks in free-play and it maybe only cost them fifty or a hundred bucks.
He informed me the casino is cracking down hard on these people. I couldn't mention my friend of course but it looks like he might have been caught in this wider sting.
