"The selfish dealer" Question -- try to max your EV

You are a dealer put into a interesting situation today. You're selfish and all you care is the amount of money you earn, aka tips. You are totally willing to ignore the intellectual accuracy in your statements if the situation calls for it. Your goal is to try to maximize your EV from this scenario:

This is almost a math problem, except the parameters come from reality instead of being explicitly defined. That said, having information on the parameters is probably more complicated than the question itself.


Scenario:

A heated argument broke out in your table. The players are playing on anyway, but still arguing as they play. There is one person, the good player, sitting at 3rd base (last to act) playing solidly. There is another player, the bad player, at a different spot in the table who just lost a few hands in a row and blamed it on the good player for BS reasons like "you took the dealer's bust card."

As the argument rages on, you're presented 3 options (including a non-action option):

1: Side with the good player
2: Side with the bad player
3: Stay out of it

Remember your goal is to try to maximize your personal EV gain.

(Clarification: You're not asking for tips. You're manipulating people for the best probability and EV for tips)


Complications (in my own opinion):




My answer:

Based on what you have said, here is my answer.

I would stay out of it because.....

1) A dealer may not solicit for tips ever. If he is pulled up for this he could well be out of a job very quickly. This is a -EV situation.
2) You have no way of quantifying a persons personality because of what you perceive his playing style to be. It is simply impossible as I have seen bad players not tip and AP's actually leave a tip.

Remember there isn't only the two people at the game, but rather a full game of players with these two sprinkled in between. You risk upsetting one side or the other through your actions whereas staying neutral and trying to focsu the attention on the actual game will perhaps lose you one side or the other but it could gain you respect from the counterpart and the balance of the table.

No way of quantifying but if you value your job, stay out of table fights and call the floor if it gets out of hand.

I would tell them the truth, and bash out that ugly urban legend wherever possible. There are so many people who have been intimidated out of playing BJ just because of the loudmouth falsehood that what the players get affects what the dealer gets. Since I'm there 8 hours a day, the butterfly effect of pointing this out every time it comes up could well, in the long run, make it a better game in my casino. I, and most people I know who gamble for fun, will color up and leave if bullied by a jackass about how we're playing our hands. If the casino tolerates this, or worse, encourages it like you suggest, you end up with a crappy casino where people no longer enjoy playing. Then they start laying off dealers, because they've burned out their customer base by tolerating or encouraging the loudmouth interaction. And yes, I do tip; I'm a total George.

Quote: Tomspur

1) A dealer may not solicit for tips ever. If he is pulled up for this he could well be out of a job very quickly. This is a -EV situation.

I could swear that in another thread, when I suggested that a dealer be fired for soliciting tips, you dismissed that as extreme.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I could swear that in another thread, when I suggested that a dealer be fired for soliciting tips, you dismissed that as extreme.

I only mentioned it because of that thread as I knew it would illicit a response.....My intention was not to bait you Axiom but rather as a veiled compliment that perhaps in extreme cases, your extreme views may have been vindicated?

Quote: beachbumbabs

Then they start laying off dealers, because they've burned out their customer base by tolerating or encouraging the loudmouth interaction.

This is where our hero (the selfish dealer) in the scenario says "screw you guys, I can always find work at a different casino and use my +EV tip strategy until they're out of business"

And no our hero does not solicit tips. He just makes one side like him so much that they're willing to tip him nicely, at the cost of the other side.

Lots of missing info from the OP, that a dealer would normally have (or have an idea about). Which player is more likely to tip (not saying in general bad players or good players more likely to tip), but which of the two actual players is more likely to tip, or has one already been tipping? If one has already been tipping and the other hasn't, side with the guy who has been tipping. Is one playing more money than the other? With just that, the one playing more money is likely to tip more [assuming they are both equally as likely to tip on a win], the bigger player will tip more than the lower-bettor (if each win 50 units, you want the big bettor to tip you 1 unit rather than the lower bettor to tip you 1 unit). Or, how have the players been doing so far (winning/losing), and which do you think is more likely to have more $$$/buy-in at the end of the night? Is the bad player so bad that he has almost no chance to come out ahead? He likely won't tip [in general], since he's a loser. What about the proper BS player, he is more likely to tip since he is more likely to come out ahead....unless he's an AP, in which case he likely won't tip (unless tipping is part of his act/cover...but if it was, you'd already know he's a tipper and the answer to the question is obvious if he's already tipping).

OP said the bad player is more likely to tip because it's irrational, but on the contrary, I think it might be the opposite. It is common practice for players to tip their dealers (just like a family would tip the waittress after a meal). The proper BS player is more rational than the bad player, which is why he may be more likely to tip. On top of that, the proper BS player hears nonsense every time he plays about "save the bust card for the dealer" or "flow of the cards", and gets annoyed by players (and dealers) talking about such bull****. But, when he hears a dealer say something like, "there is no flow of the cards" or "it isn't considered the bust card because you don't know what it is" and other logical things....the proper BS player will more likely "like" the dealer (or player) who defends him in his proper plays, and will tip for that reason. Plus, when you see these idiots who b**** about the "anchorman" messing up the table....is that idiot actually tipping? Or is he just concerned about his own losses and is trying to blame his losses on someone else? You really think this guy is gonna tip. PLUS, the idiot bad player probably hears the dealers say s*** like "no you shouldn't do that you should save the bust card for the dealer, when I'm showing a 6 I almost always bust, don't double that A8 against my 6 [in an H17 game]!!".

All things being equal, side with the proper BS player.

Quote: Neutrino

This is where our hero (the selfish dealer) in the scenario says "screw you guys, I can always find work at a different casino and use my +EV tip strategy until they're out of business"

And no our hero does not solicit tips. He just makes one side like him so much that they're willing to tip him nicely, at the cost of the other side.

So siding with a person in an argument when you are in the service industry is not soliciting tips? Very fine line in my opinion.

Also dealers don't get to keep their own tips, they don't go table for table. Do they do that in your example or does tips get pooled?

These are the things we must know!

Stay out of it. Most people, in all respects, tip what they tip less "penalties" unless some extraordinary service is performed. Taking your side in an argument like this won't be enough for anyone to tip extra, but will be enough to withhold.

I think you are forgetting about 2 things. (I didn't read your spoilers though)

1. There are other players at the table. If I am at the table and you are giving such bad advice then I will stop tipping.

2. complaints to your boss could make you lose your job which is obviously -ev

Quote: GWAE

I think you are forgetting about 2 things. (I didn't read your spoilers though)

1. There are other players at the table. If I am at the table and you are giving such bad advice then I will stop tipping.

2. complaints to your boss could make you lose your job which is obviously -ev

I agree...even if there arent other people at the table..anyone witnessing this exchange wont enter the tablr or may leave after a couple of hands from feeling uncomfortable. Empty seats means less tips. A general warning would be appropriate...."hey guys lets keep the game civil".....(even if the barking is comeing from one guy). And then if it continue....address the individual directly.

By letting a table deterorate, it means the number of people diminish...and less tips

Quote: GWAE

2. complaints to your boss could make you lose your job which is obviously -ev

If they fired every dealer who gave bad advice there would be no games.

Most rational (good) players should leave the table before the issue comes up. Barring that, the dealer should always be nice and diplomatic with both idiots. Keep it light. One time I split deuces, some guy grunted something, got up and walked away. See ya.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

If they fired every dealer who gave bad advice there would be no games.

That is true but I was meaning they would complain that the dealer is an ass and was rude to them.

Firing every rude dealer would only eliminate about 60% of the games.

Like the OP, I would also side with (i.e. "make him like me") the bad player on the grounds that he is more likely to do irrational things, plus he might also be more insecure psychologically and in need of an ally for validation / reinforcement. He might tend to show appreciation and try to secure that ally be placing big tips.

The returning customer part doesn't seem to factor as much in my opinion, there are too many variables. My primary goal is to maximize my tips this session.

Very nice thought experiment!

Many people mentioned the lack of information that would factor in the decision. There's no way in a hypothetical scenario like this that I can give you all the information. But I'll just address the most common one, let's pretend there are no other people at the table, just these 2.

Quote: LarryS

Empty seats means less tips.

This is probably the best argument I've seen for staying neutral so far.

Quote: Neutrino

This is probably the best argument I've seen for staying neutral so far.

when going on break i would tell the pit boss to intervene, and let him be the "bad guy". But conflict at the table causes loss of tips from the others who either leave or feel uncomfortable.

How is siding with the bad player in anyway +EV?

Is the assumption that bad players tip more?

You have no knowledge of what the rest of the table feels so any decision there could be -EV or +EV, you have no knowledge.

I feel you have a better chance at convincing the bad player that 3rd base could have saved the table vs convincing 3rd base they were wrong.



Unless the bad player was tipping a lot more, I see no benefit in siding with the side that indicates you are a moron and a bad BJ player yourself.



BTW, I wouldn't get into it unless asked though. If asked what I would have done, is say the book says to do what 3rd base did(or something of that nature).

Quote: soulhunt79

How is siding with the bad player in anyway +EV?

Is the assumption that bad players tip more?

You have no knowledge of what the rest of the table feels so any decision there could be -EV or +EV, you have no knowledge.

I feel you have a better chance at convincing the bad player that 3rd base could have saved the table vs convincing 3rd base they were wrong.



Unless the bad player was tipping a lot more, I see no benefit in siding with the side that indicates you are a moron and a bad BJ player yourself.



BTW, I wouldn't get into it unless asked though. If asked what I would have done, is say the book says to do what 3rd base did(or something of that nature).

I have seen dealers get verbally abused, and seeing their anguish and self restraint...I would tip them .If the loudmouth turned on the dealer for exerting control....I would chime in and back the dealer if he was handling it correctly...and also tip

If I saw the dealer doing his job(or her job) and taking control of the table...and asking the loud mouth to refrain.....the loudmouth may stop tipping....but I would guess thatother people at the tble would be so relieved..that they would tip.

the smaller picture is that the loud mouth might stp tipping or leave the table....the big picture is that table becomes a more suitable place for other players to play. The table now has a chance of filling up. More people...more chance of tips.

When I am tense at a table I dont think of tipping. If someone is verbally abusive and the dealer doesnt take charge or at least get a floor person to take charge.....i dont think of tipping. I am thinking of leaving.

Quote: LarryS

I have seen dealers get verbally abused, and seeing their anguish and self restraint...I would tip them .If the loudmouth turned on the dealer for exerting control....I would chime in and back the dealer if he was handling it correctly...and also tip

If I saw the dealer doing his job(or her job) and taking control of the table...and asking the loud mouth to refrain.....the loudmouth may stop tipping....but I would guess thatother people at the tble would be so relieved..that they would tip.

the smaller picture is that the loud mouth might stp tipping or leave the table....the big picture is that table becomes a more suitable place for other players to play. The table now has a chance of filling up. More people...more chance of tips.

When I am tense at a table I dont think of tipping. If someone is verbally abusive and the dealer doesnt take charge or at least get a floor person to take charge.....i dont think of tipping. I am thinking of leaving.

Being verbally abused is part of the job. I have people call me names all the time, and today, someone threw chips at a crewmate of mine. It's accepted, it's something we just have to deal with. It's not something we expect to be tipped for. The only time we even come close to expecting tips is on big wins. If the floor wants to stop the abuser, or security wants to stop them, that is on them, not on me. My job is simply to deal the game and take the abuse.

Quote: hwccdealer

someone threw chips at a crewmate of mine

Did he dump them in the toke box?