Poll

3 votes (21.42%)
2 votes (14.28%)
9 votes (64.28%)

14 members have voted

Neutrino
Neutrino
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March 12th, 2014 at 8:56:49 PM permalink
You are a dealer put into a interesting situation today. You're selfish and all you care is the amount of money you earn, aka tips. You are totally willing to ignore the intellectual accuracy in your statements if the situation calls for it. Your goal is to try to maximize your EV from this scenario:

This is almost a math problem, except the parameters come from reality instead of being explicitly defined. That said, having information on the parameters is probably more complicated than the question itself.


Scenario:

A heated argument broke out in your table. The players are playing on anyway, but still arguing as they play. There is one person, the good player, sitting at 3rd base (last to act) playing solidly. There is another player, the bad player, at a different spot in the table who just lost a few hands in a row and blamed it on the good player for BS reasons like "you took the dealer's bust card."

As the argument rages on, you're presented 3 options (including a non-action option):

1: Side with the good player
2: Side with the bad player
3: Stay out of it

Remember your goal is to try to maximize your personal EV gain.

(Clarification: You're not asking for tips. You're manipulating people for the best probability and EV for tips)


Complications (in my own opinion):

There are many reasons on both decisions (taking one side) that are +EV and -EV. Hence it gets quite complicated.

Choosing to shut up and stay out may seem to be the safest choice, but more than likely it would result in less tips than picking one side. The one person being happy with you taking his side probably would tip way more than the average and more than enough to make up for the other guy not tipping you. For example, average is $5 tip from each person, taking one side would most likely turn that to something like $25 from one side and $0 from the other.

The good player on average would visit the casino more. And if he likes you he'll tip you more in the future as well as that day for some long term EV gain. The bad player on average would not visit the casino as much because he keeps going bankrupt and can't afford to go all the time, because he's bad after all. However he may have a gambling problem and that would significantly increase his visits to the casino and your tip. Even though the good player visits the casino probably more often, he has a much higher chance of being an advantage player or just a stingy basic strategy player. APs are known to not tip. But if he is tipping, he will be tipping you more frequently because he will win more (most people tip in wins only), whereas you're not really giving the bad player a fair chance to tip you because he loses all the damn time.

And of course there are more complications but I'll just stop here since that's already too much to evaluate.



My answer:

I will side with the bad player. My simplified view of the situation is that, tipping is irrational (yes I'm AP), bad player is irrational, siding with him should yield much more EV than siding with the good player. Therefore I will unleash my BS'ing skills upon the good player, while not over-dominating him so he can still fight on with the bad player, and that will trigger the bad player's emotions more. I may even be somewhat harsh and extreme and throw around blatant accusations (especially accusation of card counting), after all, I don't really care about the casino losing a patron. I only care about the EV in this scenario.
Tomspur
Tomspur
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March 12th, 2014 at 9:05:23 PM permalink
Based on what you have said, here is my answer.

I would stay out of it because.....

1) A dealer may not solicit for tips ever. If he is pulled up for this he could well be out of a job very quickly. This is a -EV situation.
2) You have no way of quantifying a persons personality because of what you perceive his playing style to be. It is simply impossible as I have seen bad players not tip and AP's actually leave a tip.

Remember there isn't only the two people at the game, but rather a full game of players with these two sprinkled in between. You risk upsetting one side or the other through your actions whereas staying neutral and trying to focsu the attention on the actual game will perhaps lose you one side or the other but it could gain you respect from the counterpart and the balance of the table.

No way of quantifying but if you value your job, stay out of table fights and call the floor if it gets out of hand.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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March 12th, 2014 at 9:45:37 PM permalink
I would tell them the truth, and bash out that ugly urban legend wherever possible. There are so many people who have been intimidated out of playing BJ just because of the loudmouth falsehood that what the players get affects what the dealer gets. Since I'm there 8 hours a day, the butterfly effect of pointing this out every time it comes up could well, in the long run, make it a better game in my casino. I, and most people I know who gamble for fun, will color up and leave if bullied by a jackass about how we're playing our hands. If the casino tolerates this, or worse, encourages it like you suggest, you end up with a crappy casino where people no longer enjoy playing. Then they start laying off dealers, because they've burned out their customer base by tolerating or encouraging the loudmouth interaction. And yes, I do tip; I'm a total George.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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March 12th, 2014 at 10:25:48 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur


1) A dealer may not solicit for tips ever. If he is pulled up for this he could well be out of a job very quickly. This is a -EV situation.



I could swear that in another thread, when I suggested that a dealer be fired for soliciting tips, you dismissed that as extreme.
Tomspur
Tomspur
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March 12th, 2014 at 10:28:38 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I could swear that in another thread, when I suggested that a dealer be fired for soliciting tips, you dismissed that as extreme.



I only mentioned it because of that thread as I knew it would illicit a response.....My intention was not to bait you Axiom but rather as a veiled compliment that perhaps in extreme cases, your extreme views may have been vindicated?
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
Neutrino
Neutrino
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March 12th, 2014 at 11:47:53 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Then they start laying off dealers, because they've burned out their customer base by tolerating or encouraging the loudmouth interaction.



This is where our hero (the selfish dealer) in the scenario says "screw you guys, I can always find work at a different casino and use my +EV tip strategy until they're out of business"

And no our hero does not solicit tips. He just makes one side like him so much that they're willing to tip him nicely, at the cost of the other side.
RS
RS
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March 13th, 2014 at 12:37:55 AM permalink
Lots of missing info from the OP, that a dealer would normally have (or have an idea about). Which player is more likely to tip (not saying in general bad players or good players more likely to tip), but which of the two actual players is more likely to tip, or has one already been tipping? If one has already been tipping and the other hasn't, side with the guy who has been tipping. Is one playing more money than the other? With just that, the one playing more money is likely to tip more [assuming they are both equally as likely to tip on a win], the bigger player will tip more than the lower-bettor (if each win 50 units, you want the big bettor to tip you 1 unit rather than the lower bettor to tip you 1 unit). Or, how have the players been doing so far (winning/losing), and which do you think is more likely to have more $$$/buy-in at the end of the night? Is the bad player so bad that he has almost no chance to come out ahead? He likely won't tip [in general], since he's a loser. What about the proper BS player, he is more likely to tip since he is more likely to come out ahead....unless he's an AP, in which case he likely won't tip (unless tipping is part of his act/cover...but if it was, you'd already know he's a tipper and the answer to the question is obvious if he's already tipping).

OP said the bad player is more likely to tip because it's irrational, but on the contrary, I think it might be the opposite. It is common practice for players to tip their dealers (just like a family would tip the waittress after a meal). The proper BS player is more rational than the bad player, which is why he may be more likely to tip. On top of that, the proper BS player hears nonsense every time he plays about "save the bust card for the dealer" or "flow of the cards", and gets annoyed by players (and dealers) talking about such bull****. But, when he hears a dealer say something like, "there is no flow of the cards" or "it isn't considered the bust card because you don't know what it is" and other logical things....the proper BS player will more likely "like" the dealer (or player) who defends him in his proper plays, and will tip for that reason. Plus, when you see these idiots who b**** about the "anchorman" messing up the table....is that idiot actually tipping? Or is he just concerned about his own losses and is trying to blame his losses on someone else? You really think this guy is gonna tip. PLUS, the idiot bad player probably hears the dealers say s*** like "no you shouldn't do that you should save the bust card for the dealer, when I'm showing a 6 I almost always bust, don't double that A8 against my 6 [in an H17 game]!!".

All things being equal, side with the proper BS player.
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Tomspur
Tomspur
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March 13th, 2014 at 12:45:23 AM permalink
Quote: Neutrino

This is where our hero (the selfish dealer) in the scenario says "screw you guys, I can always find work at a different casino and use my +EV tip strategy until they're out of business"

And no our hero does not solicit tips. He just makes one side like him so much that they're willing to tip him nicely, at the cost of the other side.



So siding with a person in an argument when you are in the service industry is not soliciting tips? Very fine line in my opinion.

Also dealers don't get to keep their own tips, they don't go table for table. Do they do that in your example or does tips get pooled?

These are the things we must know!
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
24Bingo
24Bingo
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March 13th, 2014 at 1:22:41 AM permalink
Stay out of it. Most people, in all respects, tip what they tip less "penalties" unless some extraordinary service is performed. Taking your side in an argument like this won't be enough for anyone to tip extra, but will be enough to withhold.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
GWAE
GWAE
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March 13th, 2014 at 3:46:39 AM permalink
I think you are forgetting about 2 things. (I didn't read your spoilers though)

1. There are other players at the table. If I am at the table and you are giving such bad advice then I will stop tipping.

2. complaints to your boss could make you lose your job which is obviously -ev
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW

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