Is greed good?
Quote: djatcYou see this over and over everyday and start to see humanity at it's worst, boiled down to capitalism at work, with people wanting more and more. They will gamble their own money for more, oblivious to the house edge or know just enough to say it won't affect me in any way.
You mean Narcissism at work. Greed is feature of the human condition and present everywhere under every politcial system. Surely you are not so naive as to think that a system of government would change a fundamental aspect of humanity like greed?
Quote: bigfoot66You mean Narcissism at work. Greed is feature of the human condition and present everywhere under every politcial system. Surely you are not so naive as to think that a system of government would change a fundamental aspect of humanity like greed?
I like capitalism. It's a great form of government and rewards our nature to want more and more, if you are willing to work for it. Casinos are the one place where people become what they try to avoid looking like, a bunch of money grabbers. When you see this in action everyday it kinda dulls your perception of the human psyche, such as a stripper who starts to become jaded since they take off their clothes for men for dollar bills, or quarters depending on how nice or crappy the joint is.
Quote: djatcI like capitalism. .
It's not 'capitalism at work', it's greed at work.
My barber is a capitalist, he runs his little business
and makes a living. He's not greedy at all, he's
not after his clients money. He's exchanging a service
for compensation. What he wants is his clients to
keep coming back.
A casino offers no service. They trick most of their
customers by telling them half truths and fostering
outright lies. It's the business of raw greed.
Quote: EvenBobA casino offers no service. They trick most of their
customers by telling them half truths and fostering
outright lies. It's the business of raw greed.
That's capitalism.
Here's Murray Rothbard ( http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/FreeMarket.html ):
Quote:Both parties undertake the exchange because each expects to gain from it. Also, each will repeat the exchange next time (or refuse to) because his expectation has proved correct (or incorrect) in the recent past. Trade, or exchange, is engaged in precisely because both parties benefit; if they did not expect to gain, they would not agree to the exchange.
Quote: gpac1377That's capitalism.
Only because it's in a capitalistic country.
Greed is NOT the definition of capitalism
in any dictionary. We get that from the movie
Wall Street. I've been involved in several
businesses and I was never greedy.
Casinos personify greed, and then happen
to be capitalistic also. But casinos exist in
socialist countries too, and they're just like
they are here, with greed as their primary
motivation.
Quote: EvenBobGreed is NOT the definition of capitalism
in any dictionary.
Maybe not in the dictionary, but I have never met a Republican who didn't proudly say, if asked, off camera, "greed is good."
Quote: djatcI like capitalism. It's a great form of government and rewards our nature to want more and more, if you are willing to work for it. Casinos are the one place where people become what they try to avoid looking like, a bunch of money grabbers. When you see this in action everyday it kinda dulls your perception of the human psyche, such as a stripper who starts to become jaded since they take off their clothes for men for dollar bills, or quarters depending on how nice or crappy the joint is.
All this is fine (except that there is no such thing as "a great form of government". I just don't see the connection between base human behavior and a form of government. I imagine that in Macau or N Korea gamblers do not act terribly differently than they do in Vegas in this regard.
Quote: WizardMaybe not in the dictionary, but I have never met a Republican who didn't proudly say, if asked, off camera, "greed is good."
Democrats think it as well, don't fool yourself.
Quote: EvenBobOnly because it's in a capitalistic country.
Greed is NOT the definition of capitalism
in any dictionary.
It's capitalism because the transaction is voluntary on both sides. The level of greed is irrelevant.
But I bet I can make it good with some garlic, tomatoes, onions, spices, vegetables and some time in the oven. Served with rice on the side, of course.
Quote: WizardMaybe not in the dictionary, but I have never met a Republican who didn't proudly say, if asked, off camera, "greed is good."
I wish they would say something like "rational self interest is good" rather than greed but ultimately it means the same thing. If people were not greedy, ever seeking to improve their lot in life, we would still be living in caves and regularly losing our children to disease, cold, animal attacks, etc.
Also was going to PM gpac but he has pm's disabled....awesome that you link to Rothbard. He was a very wise man.
Quote: bigfoot66Also was going to PM gpac but he has pm's disabled....awesome that you link to Rothbard. He was a very wise man.
Sorry about that. I'm slightly anti-social.
Rothbard was one of the great intellects of Austrian economics, and is basically the father of anarcho-capitalism. I'm a fan :)
Quote: bigfoot66I wish they would say something like "rational self interest is good" rather than greed n.
Ayn Rand rocks!
No.
Quote: FrGambleIs greed good?
No.
Care to elaborate? After 13 years of Catholic school this would not be the first disagreement I've had with cleregy..
Quote: FrGambleIs greed good?
No.
Agree that greed is not good. However, and not quoting you, disagree that Ayn Rand was about greed. She was as anti-greed as they come, more than most. She put forth the following ideas, among others:
1. Governments do not have the right to confiscate the work product or intellectual property of individuals.
2. Persons who assume anyone owes them anything by virtue of relationship, familiarity, or the fact of the other person's industry bringing rewards should think again.
3. Genuine dissent is valuable; toadyism, hidden agendae, and propaganda are destructive.
4. Union practices such as cronyism and featherbedding are unethical and anti-capitalist.
5. A person's individual work, whether intellectual, industrial, or simply sweat equity, belongs to the individual, along with any financial rewards that work brings.
6. Critical review of works often say more about the critic than about the work, many times to the detriment of creativity.
7. The creative person needs to recognize and protect the inherent value of their creation, and not allow others to inflate or depreciate that value.
I would find it hard to believe there are many people on this board who disagree with any of these. The recent discussion about loans is a case in point re: 2.
Both Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead are cautionary tales, set in alternate near-futures to their time, taking circumstances and undercurrents into near-absurdity by exaggerating only slightly their possible consequences. She was, IMO, quite right in nearly everything she said. But, unfortunately, her work has been twisted into some kind of paean to greed that it was never intended to be. YMMV.
Quote: treetopbuddyExcellant post…….beachbumbabs
You know what scene I love in Atlas Shrugged? After the tunnel collapse when Jim Taggart tries to obtain Dagny's whereabouts from Eddy Willers. Eddy says he won't tell him. Jim says he won't believe Eddy doesn't know where she is. So Eddy clarifies by saying he knows, but he won't tell. Then Jim dares him to repeat that in front of witnesses (not realizing or caring they're in Dagny's office after all).
So Eddy gets defensive and says "That's not what I said!"
No, wait. That doesn't seem like Eddy Willers at all. Oh, right! Eddy raises his voice and says, "I know here she is. I won't tell you." Yes, that's definitely what an honest man, secure in his convictions and unafraid to take responsibility for his actions would say.
Eddy wasn't greedy, though ;)
Quote: bigfoot66Care to elaborate? After 13 years of Catholic school this would not be the first disagreement I've had with cleregy..
http://www.openbible.info/topics/greed
Quote: rxwinehttp://www.openbible.info/topics/greed
This does not shed much light on the topic. Compare greed to pride: Excessive pride is certainly a fault, but a man with no pride is just as bad. Like I said, absent greed, man would still be living in caves. Excessive greed is, like an excess of anything, unhealthy.
Quote: bigfoot66Care to elaborate? After 13 years of Catholic school this would not be the first disagreement I've had with cleregy..
...knew you were a Monarch. You seemed too intelligent to be a product of the California public school system.
It seems that modern catholicism is producing more atheists than catholics.
Quote: beachbumbabsAgree that greed is not good. However, and not quoting you, disagree that Ayn Rand was about greed. She was as anti-greed as they come, more than most.
I'm sorry but this part of your otherwise excellent post is not accurate. Rand wrote a book called "The Virtue of Selfishness". I agree that the radical individualism she proposes is different than what people imagine when they think of "greed", but the fact is that she most certainly endorses an individual always striving and working for more which many (liberal) people call greed.
Quote: RogerKint...knew you were a Monarch. You seemed too intelligent to be a product of the California public school system.
It seems that modern catholicism is producing more atheists than catholics.
Very close, and thank you for the kind words. I was an Eagle, the Monarchs were our hated rival. It was a pleasure to beat them in football my Jr and Sr years, though they destroyed us at The Angels' Stadium my sophomore year.
Quote: bigfoot66I'm sorry but this part of your otherwise excellent post is not accurate. Rand wrote a book called "The Virtue of Selfishness". I agree that the radical individualism she proposes is different than what people imagine when they think of "greed", but the fact is that she most certainly endorses an individual always striving and working for more which many (liberal) people call greed.
Many (conservative) people would call it taking care of yourself. Like anything out there, it can be taken too far but wanting to get ahead is not a bad thing. The right way to do it, in my opinion, is to want to get ahead also to think about those who aren't as lucky as you are in life. If liberals call that bit of selfishness "greed", then that is their problem.
Quote: RonCMany (conservative) people would call it taking care of yourself. Like anything out there, it can be taken too far but wanting to get ahead is not a bad thing. The right way to do it, in my opinion, is to want to get ahead also to think about those who aren't as lucky as you are in life. If liberals call that bit of selfishness "greed", then that is their problem.
I am friends with a man who makes $16 million annually from his job and more from investments. He could easily support himself the rest of his life but he continues to work. Is he greedy? Sounds greedy to me. But he is so skilled at his job that the world is a better place because he continues to work.
All of them are actually perversion (by excess) of natural needs.
Eating is necessary (good) - gluttony is an excess, creates evil for the person AND for others.
Sex is good - luxury is excess
Rest is good - laziness is deleterious
etc.
So, preserving one's possessions is necessary - greed is bad.
Please notice that in French, the sin is called 'Avarice', which is not the same as Greed. Greed is about acquiring (excessively), 'avarice' is about keeping, being unable to spend.
Now most of capitalism is based on extracting value from other humans* (i.e. greed) and on advertising. Advertising works two ways:
1. Make people unhappy and then tell them to consume in order to be happy.
2. Invert the classical moral values, and especially showing the capital sins as good ('Be egoist', 'Be greedy', 'Be glutton', etc.) "Greed is good" is a typical phrase from a bank's ad...
So, capitalism is evil.
* lower your costs (extract value from your providers and your workers) and increase your revenues (extract from your clients)
Quote: kubikulann
So, capitalism is evil.
Evil is an opinion, not a fact. What's evil to
some is a boon to others. I think casinos
are evil, most don't.
"Freedom works. Capitalism works. Everywhere it's tried, it works. Whenever it's tried, it works." - Yaron Brook,
director, Ayn Rand Institute
If Greed is good, then a greedy government must be better than a miserly one.
Again, if greed is good a greedy government is better than a miserly one.
Quote: bigfoot66I'm sorry but this part of your otherwise excellent post is not accurate. Rand wrote a book called "The Virtue of Selfishness". I agree that the radical individualism she proposes is different than what people imagine when they think of "greed", but the fact is that she most certainly endorses an individual always striving and working for more which many (liberal) people call greed.
Here is where it breaks down and people fail to understand IMHO.
Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Andrew Carnegie, Henry Ford, and any number of industrialists wanted to build their empires and make money. This is "good greed." They did not take their riches from anybody else. They sold legitimate products or services that their customers wanted. They offered a wage for people to come and work for them. Sure, their superior products ran their competitors out of business, but that is the market. Many of these were mercy killings.
Steve Jobs put the final nail in the coffin of record stores. Well because of him you no longer need to pay $15 for a full album because you want 1-2 songs. Steve's "greed" made things better for most people. Yes a few malls need to find new tenants, a few record store clerks new jobs, and some bands need to work that much harder. But guess what? The record companies no longer have a stranglehold on new bands. Podcasts let anyone with an idea go on the air, many of them are quite good, and few if any would have ever gotten on radio.
Then there is "bad greed." This is greed where you do not want to make your own money but you want to loot someone else's money. Examples here are people who call for higher taxes because others need to pay their "fair share;" scam artists who outright steal from and swindle people; and I will even add Obamacare and its claim that just because I can buy health insurance I should have to buy it for someone else as well merely because I can buy it.
In the USA in 2014 there are some people who seem to think you are supposed to "stop" after you have "x." They ask "when is enough enough?" They act as if because someone buys an iPhone then that money could have and should have went somewhere else. And so often the person thinking Jobs was "greedy" have just the place that his money should go.
I will trust a "greedy" person making their own money honestly over a person who says "when is enough enough" because the later is nothing but a looter.
Quote: AZDuffman
Then there is "bad greed." .
The Robber Barons, like Rockefeller, were
examples of bad greed. He wanted and got
a monopoly of the oil business worldwide,
and became the richest man the world will
ever know because of it. He used any method
needed to get rid of the competition.
"By the time of his death in 1937, estimates place his net worth in the range of US$392 billion to US$663.4 billion in adjusted dollars for the late 2000s."
400 billion? And he still scrutinized every bill he
got when they went for dinner to see if he
was being overcharged.
Quote: EvenBobThe Robber Barons, like Rockefeller, were
examples of bad greed.
Here are a couple of libertarians who would strenuously disagree:
http://mises.org/daily/2317
http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2013/Hendersonbarons.html
If the robber barons committed acts properly defined as crimes, then we could say those actions were wrong.
Otherwise, who am I to judge?
EDIT: Here's a quote from the first link:
Quote:Men like James J. Hill, John D. Rockefeller, and Cornelius Vanderbilt were heroes who improved the lives of millions of consumers; employed thousands and enabled them to support their families and educate their children; created entire cities because of the success of their enterprises (for example, Scranton, Pennsylvania); pioneered efficient management techniques that are still employed today; and donated hundreds of millions of dollars to charities and nonprofit organizations of all kinds, from libraries to hospitals to symphonies, public parks, and zoos. It is absolutely perverse that historians usually look at these men as crooks or cheaters while praising and advocating "business/government partnerships," which can only lead to corruption and economic decline.
Quote: EvenBobThe Robber Barons, like Rockefeller, were
examples of bad greed. He wanted and got
a monopoly of the oil business worldwide,
and became the richest man the world will
ever know because of it. He used any method
needed to get rid of the competition.
Before him there was no oil refining business. He was the Microsoft of his day. His monopoly was already ending at the time of the break-up. Texas oil was coming on-line and the refining market was going to have huge changes as the demand switched from kerosene to gasoline. The break-up just accelerated what was going to happen.
Quote:400 billion? And he still scrutinized every bill he
got when they went for dinner to see if he
was being overcharged.
Good for him! That is how wealthy guys get wealthy, by watching the details.
Quote: rxwineLet's apply greed somewhere else.
If Greed is good, then a greedy government must be better than a miserly one.
Again, if greed is good a greedy government is better than a miserly one.
Nope. A "greedy government" is not good. What does a government produce? Where does the money to fund the government come from? Who benefits from the greed of the government? The gist of the "good greed" here is in people doing their best. A greedy government is not doing the best it can for the people it is supposed to be taking care of...
Quote: RonCNope. A "greedy government" is not good. What does a government produce? Where does the money to fund the government come from? Who benefits from the greed of the government? The gist of the "good greed" here is in people doing their best. A greedy government is not doing the best it can for the people it is supposed to be taking care of...
So religious precepts chastise greed, anti-monopoly and other laws hinder the survival of the greediest, and greed isn't good when the government uses it. I assume it's also bad as it's used by all dictators, thieves, drug lords, mobsters, and the corrupt like the guy living it up in highstyle thrown out of the Ukraine
But it's fine for conservatives!
All I need to know.
Quote: rxwineSo religious precepts chastise greed, anti-monopoly and other laws hinder the survival of the greediest, and greed isn't good when the government uses it. I assume it's also bad as it's used by all dictators, thieves, drug lords, mobsters, and the corrupt like the guy living it up in highstyle thrown out of the Ukraine
But it's fine for conservatives!
All I need to know.
Seems like there's a pretty broad and flexible definition of "greed" itself throughout this thread. At one extreme might be Franciscan Monks who've taken a vow of poverty and own nothing; at the other might be a dictator who imposes 90% taxes and treats the government treasury as his personal checking account while people starve. In the middle, you have Bill Gates, Stephen Jobs, the person making below minimum wage but still tithes 10%, lots of others mentioned above.
For me, greed has to do with envy, covetousness, and most especially with taking that which you have not earned. Some examples: If you set a market value on something you've created and people are willing to pay it, there is no greed involved, as long as those who are in it with you as employees or investors also benefit fairly. So, setting a price point on an Iphone of $500 is not greedy if you have 5 million customers lined up waiting to buy it at that price. If you spread lies about a competitor's product or services, sell yours at a loss in order to drive them out of business and later raise yours above fair market value to pay for it while stiffing your employees and underpaying your manufacturers' contracts, that's greedy. So, I have boycotted Walmart for going on 16 years specifically over greed. If, in gambling, you keep an overpay and know you got overpaid, especially if you justify keeping it for some other reason, that's at least partially greed in my value system. I already know I disagree with many people here on that.
There is also a place for altruistic charity without being blackmailed into providing it. If you see a need, money can help it, you have the money to spare, and your world will be a better place if you donate, then you should donate. My particular charities include the Nature Conservancy and the Girl Scouts of America. Both organizations make my world a better place, so I find value in keeping them funded. Most religion-based charities will never hear from me. But that's me. Ayn Rand would probably not agree.
Quote: rxwineSo religious precepts chastise greed, anti-monopoly and other laws hinder the survival of the greediest, and greed isn't good when the government uses it. I assume it's also bad as it's used by all dictators, thieves, drug lords, mobsters, and the corrupt like the guy living it up in highstyle thrown out of the Ukraine
But it's fine for conservatives!
All I need to know.
When did conservatives say it was good to be a dictator, drug dealer, or in the mafia? Where did you get that?
But I will go along with greed is not good when used by the government as the government is ultimately a looter that produces nothing on its own, as others here haves said. It is easy to be generous with someone else's money.
Quote: AZHere is where it breaks down and people fail to understand IMHO....
Of course Bill Gates was notorious for "bad greed" in the beginning. He was a notorious bully who squeezed out and swindled other software companies so that MicroSoft could make it to the top.
Steve Jobs, like any modern industrialist, exploits cheap labor from overseas in order to keep costs down and stay competitive. You can categorize this as "bad greed" too because it would have been far better for America to keep the jobs in your country. In this case, he's looting human capital, or labor.
Good greed, I believe, and what built America in the last century, is the notion that capitalism is in place to make the world a better place. You do that by not only reinvesting your generated capital in your company, but by building your human capital as well: paying them decently to have a decent live, under the theory that if they have disposable income, they will be a customer. $10/hour is not enough to have a decent life, yet tens of millions of Americans make that amount (and less) while their corporate leaders continue to get richer and richer.
Quote: rxwineSo religious precepts chastise greed, anti-monopoly and other laws hinder the survival of the greediest, and greed isn't good when the government uses it. I assume it's also bad as it's used by all dictators, thieves, drug lords, mobsters, and the corrupt like the guy living it up in highstyle thrown out of the Ukraine
But it's fine for conservatives!
All I need to know.
I am assuming there was meant to be a point in your rant somewhere, but you failed miserably at making it.
Quote: boymimboOf course Bill Gates was notorious for "bad greed" in the beginning. He was a notorious bully who squeezed out and swindled other software companies so that MicroSoft could make it to the top.
Steve Jobs, like any modern industrialist, exploits cheap labor from overseas in order to keep costs down and stay competitive. You can categorize this as "bad greed" too because it would have been far better for America to keep the jobs in your country. In this case, he's looting human capital, or labor.
I have not heard where Gates "swindled" other companies out of anything. He paid a fair price for what became DOS, he told IBM he wanted to license and not sell the OS to them. It was all agreed to. As to "squeezed out" well sorry, if Gates had a better mousetrap he had a better mousetrap. If Lotus 1-2-3 and WordPerfect had bundled more product then they might today be the standard. Lotus squeezed out VisiCalc. It happens.
As to Jobs offshoring, how is he looting labor? He or his sub-contractors offer a price and labor meets it. it would be nice to keep the assembly jobs here. But labor got too expensive and government piled on too many regulations to make it happen. Not to mention America just does not produce enough engineers and design people to meet demand.
Quote:Good greed, I believe, and what built America in the last century, is the notion that capitalism is in place to make the world a better place. You do that by not only reinvesting your generated capital in your company, but by building your human capital as well: paying them decently to have a decent live, under the theory that if they have disposable income, they will be a customer. $10/hour is not enough to have a decent life, yet tens of millions of Americans make that amount (and less) while their corporate leaders continue to get richer and richer.
Labor will get paid what the market dictates. If we wanted to increase wages one of the easiest things to do would be clamp down hard on illegal immigration, reducing supply. We choose not to do so. If a person wants to make >$10 an hour then that person needs to get marketable skills to earn that wage. It does not require college. Employers are not going to pay more money to "be nice people." Some may pay more, from Henry Fort to Costco, but this is for a business reason. In those two cases it is or was to reduce turnover costs. IOW, it was their greed.
