Shufflemaster myths or truths behind custom shuffled cards

1) Shufflemaster is a very well know company who produces card shufflers.
2) Bally is a major company who produces gaming machines.
3) Bally acquired shufflemaster.
4) Bally also acquired patents for certain technologies including visual camera communication with software programs that work with shufflemaster product.

Can you imagine if you have an eye in the sky overlooking the table and views players action, send the information to the software that controls shufflemaster product including card shufflers that are programmed to read bar code from the cards?

This is crazy technology.
Something to think about while your playing a card game and wondering if that is why your cards are not coming your way.

Any thoughts?

Quote:

Can you imagine if you have an eye in the sky overlooking the table and views players action, send the information to the software that controls shufflemaster product including card shufflers that are programmed to read bar code from the cards?

This is crazy technology.
Something to think about while your playing a card game and wondering if that is why your cards are not coming your way.

Any thoughts?

Sounds like a load of s*** to me. There are so many things wrong with what you wrote....I don't even know where to start.....sigh

Quote: RS

Sounds like a load of s*** to me. There are so many things wrong with what you wrote....I don't even know where to start.....sigh

I just read about this the other day from reading an article from google. hey the possibilities are there.

Can you post a link to the article (if it's permitted on WOV)?

Quote: CrapsGenious

Something to think about while your playing a card game and wondering if that is why your cards are not coming your way.

Any thoughts?

Bad luck.

Quote: RS

Can you post a link to the article (if it's permitted on WOV)?

There were a few of them I read in google, searched keywords "Bally, Shufflemaster, Patents, software programmable card shufflers"

I will post the links if I come across them.

Interesting reads.

It wouldn't be hard to make a machine that can read and arrange cards in a certain order.

Shufflemasters are now used in a majority of poker tables and it's possible to sequence a deck of cards so that a certain position always wins, regardless of where the deck is cut once it comes out of the machine.

See here:

Sometimes I wonder if this kind of thing happens in the big cash games in Macau and elsewhere. There are a lot of poorly regulated card rooms and private games out there.

As crazy as the OP from the "genious" sounds, I've had similar thoughts myself. I began questioning some of these shufflers after playing in an Indian casino where they offer craps with cards (the deck has 36 cards showing every combination of the dice). I played there regularly over the course of 4-5 years, and whenever anyone at the table would start betting big, the machine would never fail to spit out PSO's. It was eerie.

At first, I thought it was all in my mind, but I've been playing craps for almost 30 years, and this was the only casino where I would lose just about every time. (I know, I know...I'm an idiot for continuing to play there for 5 years. lol) Some of my friends made similar comments. Anyway, I have no proof at all of any wrongdoing, and it could all still be in my mind. But some of these Indian casinos do seem sketchy, and people who have read my posts know that I'm not some conspiracy nut.

Quote: stargazer

It wouldn't be hard to make a machine that can read and arrange cards in a certain order.

Theoretically possible, but not practical using today's technology IMO. Mohegan Sun pulled all their BJ shuffle machines because they had problems with just shuffling. The mechanical action needed to manipulate individual cards suggests a machine far larger than what you would want to put on a table. Besides, such a cheat is not in the best interests of the casino. They already have a profitable edge and must compete with like casinos. If found to cheat, which statistics could prove to a reasonable degree of confidence, the potential loss of business far outweighs the temporary gains.

I just avoid every table game with a shuffle machine.

Quote: Beethoven9th

... I began questioning some of these shufflers ...

Rigging the shufflers to present an ordered, unshuffled deck on command would be a far simpler scenario than engineering a shuffler to do the ordering, don't you think?

I reserve my paranoia for the virtual blackjack tables, such as the one SHFL makes. No claim is made that the game is a fair simulation of a table game. The number of decks simulated isn't given. Maybe all simulated cards are shuffled for each hand, maybe not. If not shuffled for each hand, there is no indication of when a shuffle takes place, at least none that is stated on the game. Are the simulated cards drawn from a simulated, sorted shoe, or is the next card drawn at random from available cards? This game can be set to cheat simply by altering the software. Now where did I put my tinfoil hat...

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

Rigging the shufflers to present an ordered, unshuffled deck on command would be a far simpler scenario than engineering a shuffler to do the ordering, don't you think?

No, not for craps because the player can bet either side.

Quote: Beethoven9th

No, not for craps because the player can bet either side.

So, are the cards shuffled AFTER bets are placed? I wouldn't want to play that game! If the cards are shuffled before bets are placed that seems contrary to core concept of craps: wagers are placed on a future random result. True, the result would be unknown, but it would be a done deal.

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

Rigging the shufflers to present an ordered, unshuffled deck on command would be a far simpler scenario than engineering a shuffler to do the ordering, don't you think?

No. It would be equally simple.

The shufflers already have an option where they will pus a random deck back into "fresh deck" sequence.

"Fresh deck" is nothing but a specific sequence. How hard would it be to have it output a random looking specific sequence? Not hard at all.

On the other hand, the "fresh deck" sequence is already part of the shuffler's options and programming. To allow for a specific 'random' sequence to be programmed in, on the fly, would require additional interfaces and stuff - items that ShuffleMaster doesn't already provide.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

No. It would be equally simple.

The shufflers already have an option where they will pus a random deck back into "fresh deck" sequence.

"Fresh deck" is nothing but a specific sequence. How hard would it be to have it output a random looking specific sequence? Not hard at all.

On the other hand, the "fresh deck" sequence is already part of the shuffler's options and programming. To allow for a specific 'random' sequence to be programmed in, on the fly, would require additional interfaces and stuff - items that ShuffleMaster doesn't already provide.

Wouldn't it be fairly easy to confirm your suspicions by correlating PSO's with newly introduced decks?

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

So, are the cards shuffled AFTER bets are placed?

I'm not sure when the machine is technically done shuffling, but this is what takes place:

1) Cards are being shuffled
2) Players make their bets
3) After all bets are set, the stick pushes a button, and the machine spits out the cards (which end up being the roll)

I've had serious questions about this particular casino, but again I have no concrete evidence of any wrongdoing, which is why I haven't named it. I've played at other Indian casinos that offer the same exact game, but my results at those places are consistent with my results playing with real dice, so I believe that those Indian casinos are totally clean. Like I said before, what always bothered me is the fact that the casino in question is the only place I've ever played in almost 30 years where my results are completely skewed big time (to the losing side, of course!).

Oh well, thank god I finally wised up—after 5 years!—and don't play there anymore!

Why not just play the darkside? Seems like you could really make a fortune.

Quote: Beethoven9th

I'm not sure when the machine is technically done shuffling, but this is what takes place:

1) Cards are being shuffled
2) Players make their bets
3) After all bets are set, the stick pushes a button, and the machine spits out the cards (which end up being the roll)

I get it now. Yes, this operation could be rigged easily. With big money on the line, the dealer could load a seven-roll card on the top of the deck, submit it to the shuffle machine and initiate a "pretend to shuffle" mode. Simple and effective, the weak point being the stick would know. Even if the game was a fair simulation of craps it still sounds like they have sucked a lot of the fun and ritual out of it.

Quote: geoff

Why not just play the darkside? Seems like you could really make a fortune.

No. (See my previous post regarding the shuffler & betting process)

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

I get it now. Yes, this operation could be rigged easily. With big money on the line, the dealer could load a seven-roll card on the top of the deck, submit it to the shuffle machine and initiate a "pretend to shuffle" mode. Simple and effective, the weak point being the stick would know. Even if the game was a fair simulation of craps it still sounds like they have sucked a lot of the fun and ritual out of it.

+1

Totally agree. Also, the shuffler is actually built into the craps table and can't be seen at all (which is why I was unsure when the shuffling technically stops). But like you said, a "pretend to shuffle" mode seems very likely.

But when you see everyone else up their bet then you can switch to the darkside by yourself. Sure everybody else loses, but you'll win.

Quote: geoff

Why not just play the darkside? Seems like you could really make a fortune.

If the game is rigged as you suspect you could make hay. If PSO's on command are the weapon the casino is using then you can throw usual craps stats out the window. PSO's can harvest all the pass/come bets, but you can't kill the don'ts with a single result. You just have to be sure you are playing with enough other players so the casino is happy fleecing them and unconcerned about you. If you get backed off I would take that as confirmation of your suspicions.

Quote: geoff

But when you see everyone else up their bet then you can switch to the darkside by yourself. Sure everybody else loses, but you'll win.

Not if a 12 is rolled.

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

You just have to be sure you are playing with enough other players so the casino is happy fleecing them...

Exactly. And after the big bettors go bust, the house can go back to fleecing the Don't guys...lol

Rule #1: Any machine made by man, can be manipulated by man. With this in mind, I know the IDeal Card Shufflers have the ability to read the cards in order to account for each card as well as put them in order by suit and card number order. I know of several casinos that have used this ability of these machines to confirm the cards after larger wins. The casinos, I suspect, also have the ability to set the machines return to the players a certain %. As a 3 Card Poker player, having observed this first hand, I believe the way this is accomplished is the shuffler does not shuffle the cards in any particular order, but rather the card shuffling machine "knows" into which slot each card is placed during the shuffle. Thus it know where each three card combo of hands is located. This means it knows where all the high ranked hands are located such as the Pair Plus hands. Depending on the payout requirements as dictated by the gaming commission, the card shuffler will deal each player a certain hand.

Does the machine know how many players are at the table?

Okay, I am going to speak for the E-Baccarat games which deal live cards. I can testify that the machine has pre-knowledge of the order of the deck.

I was playing on an E-Baccarat game. There is an electronic arm which swings and flips over each card as it is "read".

During the middle of a shoe, the arm suddenly malfunctioned mid-swing. The card in its grasp was only half-turned over. It was the last card to be dealt and the computer correctly made the win-lose determination.

Nobody bet on the next hand at the table as everyone assumed a techie would need to come over to fix it.

To everyone's shock and dismay, the table called no more bets and the virtual simulation on the board which displayed the physical card results KEPT GOING!

The machine continued playing the decks even though no more physical cards were being turned.

When a techie did come by everyone (who now suspected a cheat) wanted to know how this was possible.

His reply was the decks were automatically shuffled (8 decks) at the beginning and the computer "read" the order for all eight decks immediately so the entire order the decks would be played in were already predetermined. However, when I suggested he could cheat himself, he said no employees have access to that info and the decks are truly being shuffled prior to each run.

So, can a techie cheat at E-Baccarat? I can certainly see how an inside job could work, especially from the manufacturer.

Quote: 1BB

Does the machine know how many players are at the table?

A CSM (like a one2six) or specialty game shuffler (like an iDeal) knows how many players were at the table during the last deal. Unless people are constantly jumping in and out, it's a pretty easy guess.

It would be somewhat harder to gaff a batch shuffler (ASM, like an MD2, MD3, Deckmate, etc) with this information, anyway.

In the case of Baccarat type games, yes - the shuffler has a really good idea of how many hands are in play.