understanding novice medical advice

Instead of going off on a tangent on a thread where this does not belong...I will start this thread.

>>>Caffeine is considered, "Likely safe for most adults when used appropriately.">>>>>PER MISSION and his soruce

not a glowing reccomendation by your source. And the same source you point to would probably list at least a dozen contraindicatins as far as disease states.
very common disease states affecting tens of millions of perople in this country.

Its easy....if people do indeed go to their doctor once a year for a check-up....they can ask if they are ok taking caffeine..and how much.

If people dont see doctors regularly and have no clue if they have hidden diseases...then they shouldnt touch caffeine.

Meanwhile, standard medical practice has no course of therapy where people are put on higher doses of caffeine to quit smoking.

There are diet remedies on the OTC market with caffeine, there are "energy" drinks with caffeine like derivatives....yet if you would ask doctors, nurses, or pharmacists.....they wont touch reccommending them.. Why? Because besides the dozen common medical conditions where caffeine is contraindicated, there are about 3 dozen presscription drugs that interact with it. Unless someone has access to someones full medical chart...and has the training to understand the chart....then they can begin to give an answer to the question...."can I take caffeine..and how much"

The idea that "it worked for me therefore its harmless or "likely safe".....is not a logical extrapolation.

likely safe when used approriately.......YEAH...."appropriately" means that you are not taking the drug(yes caffeine is a drug)....while having the listed medical conditions....or while taking the 3 dozen medications that interact. That leaves out tens of millions of people in the USA.

This post is less about mission, than it is for me to clear up a declaration that may cause harm if the wrong person followerd the advice.The general public doesnt think of caffeine or alcohol as being ""a drug".......but they are 2 of the most studied drugs on the market....and there is alot of solid factual data attached tothese drugs. "personal feelings" or personal perceived experiences do not cancel out the facts.

I think you're right caffeine is vastly underestimated and the possible dangers weren't even in my possible thoughts of knowledge. I'd imagine most people would blow off the advice not even open to it being true.

You can go to Youtube and watch people illustrate crude surgical procedures. on their bodies. There's no limit to bad ideas-- what with the Intertubes.

1.) I've already admitted, twice, that I should not have used the word harmless.

2.) I'm not a fish, so please cast your line somewhere else.

They say they take elderly people off caffeine - cut back on it anyway - because their bodies don't process it too well up there in age.

I intend to fight it if told that, totally. So far everybody who has gone toe to toe with old age has lost ... the record is something like 1 trillion to zero ... but I like my chances! [not]

Quote: Mission146

1.) I've already admitted, twice, that I should not have used the word harmless.

2.) I'm not a fish, so please cast your line somewhere else.

I will repeat, if you havent read the entire post.

The post is more about getting the correct info out to lurkers that might have been swayed by your comment. not to hook you into some debate that you are not qualified to enter. I realize you dont have a leg to stand on. I just want to clearly get the info out there for the innocent parties that might be injured.

I mean if someone tries to sell the bill of goods that drinking alcohol doesnt negatively affect gambling success......thats one thing. All that can happen is that people lose more money then they usually would. Money can be replaced.(this declaration is not attached to mission)

But the statement about caffeine needed to be addressed....because THAT can negatively effect health. And good health is much harder to replace.

the post is not about "hooking a fish"...its about stating real facts.

real facts that were originally omitted as qualifiers.

significant facts that were originally omitted as quailifiers

I just filled in the blanks

Every study that I've ever read has correlated drinking coffee with longevity. The more you drink, the longer you live.

Obviously, there is more stuff in coffee than caffeine, and, yes, some people should not have caffeine, but, in the aggregate, it seems to be good for you. In other words, it is more likely to help you than hurt you.

Wouldn't it be more helpful to say "if you have a bad heart you prob shouldnt take any stimulants" than "OMG!!! Don't drink caffeine!!!"

Quote: rudeboyoi

Wouldn't it be more helpful to say "if you have a bad heart you prob shouldnt take any stimulants" than "OMG!!! Don't drink caffeine!!!"

Yeah but that's out because it would be reasonable.

Quote: rudeboyoi

Wouldn't it be more helpful to say "if you have a bad heart you prob shouldnt take any stimulants" than "OMG!!! Don't drink caffeine!!!"

no not at all.....if you have "bad" kidneys, "bad" GI issues, "bad" psychiatric problems, "bad" insomina, and "bad" hypertension....caffeine is not a good idea...as well as for people who have a "bad" heart

as you probably know...hypertension is not a "heart" problem/// it is usally caused by narrowing of the arteries....and eventually can cause a "bad" heart

Then add to all the above.......approx 3 dozen prescription medications spanning many many conditions that are assigned "moderate" to "severe" status as far as contra-indication...you can add tens of millions of patients again that shoudnt take caffeine.

So again if you have the listed dozen different medical condiions(including "bad heart") which afflict tens of millions of people,,,,and or take anything from the list of over 30 meds......then you should not be taking caffeine products.

Then if you are one of the tens of millions of people who dont regularly see a doctor for a checkup and periodic bloodwork......they are risking serious health issue if they take this particular drug.

so to answer the question.....the answer is obviously NO

that is based on facts.....not based on MY feelings or your limited knowlege of pharmacology.

Quote: LarryS

no not at all.....if you have "bad" kidneys, "bad" GI issues, "bad" psychiatric problems, "bad" insomina, and "bad" hypertension....caffeine is not a good idea...as well as for people who have a "bad" heart

as you probably know...hypertension is not a "heart" problem/// it is usally caused by narrowing of the arteries....and eventually can cause a "bad" heart

Then add to all the above.......approx 3 dozen prescription medications spanning many many conditions that are assigned "moderate" to "severe" status as far as contra-indication...you can add tens of millions of patients again that shoudnt take caffeine.

So again if you have the listed dozen different medical condiions(including "bad heart") which afflict tens of millions of people,,,,and or take anything from the list of over 30 meds......then you should not be taking caffeine products.

Then if you are one of the tens of millions of people who dont regularly see a doctor for a checkup and periodic bloodwork......they are risking serious health issue if they take this particular drug.

so to answer the question.....the answer is obviously NO

that is based on facts.....not based on MY feelings or your limited knowlege of pharmacology.

it doesnt matter which condition i said. my point being is i found it absurd you actually took the time to start another thread instead of just saying coffees not a good substitute or whatever. the whole tone of your comments is fear-mongering to scare people not into drinking coffee or caffeinated beverages. not a very subtle approach.

Quote: LarryS

no not at all.....if you have "bad" kidneys, "bad" GI issues, "bad" psychiatric problems, "bad" insomina, and "bad" hypertension....caffeine is not a good idea...as well as for people who have a "bad" heart

as you probably know...hypertension is not a "heart" problem/// it is usally caused by narrowing of the arteries....and eventually can cause a "bad" heart

Then add to all the above.......approx 3 dozen prescription medications spanning many many conditions that are assigned "moderate" to "severe" status as far as contra-indication...you can add tens of millions of patients again that shoudnt take caffeine.

So again if you have the listed dozen different medical condiions(including "bad heart") which afflict tens of millions of people,,,,and or take anything from the list of over 30 meds......then you should not be taking caffeine products.

Then if you are one of the tens of millions of people who dont regularly see a doctor for a checkup and periodic bloodwork......they are risking serious health issue if they take this particular drug.

so to answer the question.....the answer is obviously NO

that is based on facts.....not based on MY feelings or your limited knowlege of pharmacology.

Yeah but not drinking coffee leads to premature death, so, you know, you have to decide which risks you want to take.

Or, if you prefer the fear-mongering approach: DRINK COFFEE OR YOU WILL DIE!!!!1!!11one

"A large study of nearly half a million older adults followed for about 12 years revealed a clear trend: as coffee drinking increased, the risk of death decreased."

I am a coffee or tea drinker. I would also like to suggest intake of Cranberry Juice and Cherries. These tend to clense the kidneys, that have been working overtime dehydrating the patient.

As far as the caffein, I do believe the source must be accounted, and I believe tea is the better choice. Thats opinion: not fact.

Quote: rudeboyoi

it doesnt matter which condition i said. my point being is i found it absurd you actually took the time to start another thread instead of just saying coffees not a good substitute or whatever. the whole tone of your comments is fear-mongering to scare people not into drinking coffee or caffeinated beverages. not a very subtle approach.

i started another thread so as not to hijack a thread dedicated to Mission. It was the right thing to do.

My comments can only cause fear to those people who have the diseases and take the meds for which caffeine is contraindicated. Or it may cause fear of people who are afraid of their own shadow, and panic at the drop of a hat.

Other than that normal people wont be paniced or fearfull/

I never said caffeine is not to be taken by people without those disease states or taking those meds.


so yes......people who fall under the categories where caffeine is contraindicated...should be fearfull of this drug

and if I made one person examine their innaprpriate use of caffeine....then thats a good thing

Nothing bad can come from my posts....only good

If people who normally take caffeine and dont fall into the contraindicatred categories...but still decide to dump caffeine from their diet based on my posts....whats the downside? Its not like caffeine is a nutrient, a vitamin or amino acid. It is not essential to a diet.

there are those that would rather hear that caffeine is harmless accross the board without qualification........those people will live in their dreamworld ad may end up dying early in their dreamworld. People can believe what they want....but facts are the facts.

Quote: 98Clubs

I would also like to suggest intake of Cranberry Juice and Cherries. These tend to clense the kidneys, that have been working overtime dehydrating the patient.

This suggestion is delivered in a helpful tone.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Yeah but not drinking coffee leads to premature death, so, you know, you have to decide which risks you want to take.

Or, if you prefer the fear-mongering approach: DRINK COFFEE OR YOU WILL DIE!!!!1!!11one

"A large study of nearly half a million older adults followed for about 12 years revealed a clear trend: as coffee drinking increased, the risk of death decreased."

this is a prime example of how a person ignorant of the big picture......extrapolates a single article to the general population.

Just leave the reccomending of the taking fo drugs to the people educated in the matter and have read more than one article on a topic. You dont go to a pharmacy and get a reccomendation from the stock boy ...and you dont put any faith in people who draw conclusions from one single article they read during their lunch hour at home depot.

I havent read that article but I would bet that the people who lived longer didnt have hypertension, heart disease, arrythmias, psychiatric problems including OCD, gastric ulcers, seizure disorders,chronic insomnia and renal disease. And I bet that the people who were studied that lived longer, didnt ingest the list of 30 drugs that are contraindicated with caffeine.

Its like me saying that people recovering from stroke live longer when they take warfarin.....therefore everyone should be taking it.
Women recovering from breast cancer live longer if they take tamoxifen....therefor why should anyone be scared of taking it..give it to your children..dont you want them to live longer?

very illogical

I still stand by my original statement

caffeine is not harmless without qualification

and i listed the qualifications that effect tens of millions of people in this country

that the facts

if it scares you....talk to mommy....she will comfort you

big boys can handle it

Quote: 98Clubs

I am a coffee or tea drinker. I would also like to suggest intake of Cranberry Juice and Cherries. These tend to clense the kidneys, that have been working overtime dehydrating the patient.

As far as the caffein, I do believe the source must be accounted, and I believe tea is the better choice. Thats opinion: not fact.

http://www.kidneyfund.org/kidney-health/common-kidney-questions/#Is_cranberry_juice_good_for_my_kidneys?

cranberry juice is an acidifier that can help preven urinary tract infections just based on being acidic.

other than that it has no "cleansing" ability

I dont even know what it means to cleanse the kidneys...u mean like dialysis?

I dont think so

Quote: 98Clubs

I am a coffee or tea drinker. I would also like to suggest intake of Cranberry Juice and Cherries. These tend to clense the kidneys, that have been working overtime dehydrating the patient.

As far as the caffein, I do believe the source must be accounted, and I believe tea is the better choice. Thats opinion: not fact.

http://www.kidneyfund.org/kidney-health/common-kidney-questions/#Is_cranberry_juice_good_for_my_kidneys?

cranberry juice is an acidifier that can help prevent urinary tract infections just based on being acidic.

other than that it has no "cleansing" ability

I dont even know what it means to cleanse the kidneys...u mean like dialysis?

I dont think so

Quote: LarryS

this is a prime example of how a person ignorant of the big picture......extrapolates a single article to the general population.

Quote:

I havent read that article

Maybe if you too the time to read that article you would see that it does apply to the general population.

Or you can just keep guessing, and assume that you're right.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Maybe if you too the time to read that article you would see that it does apply to the general population.

Or you can just keep guessing, and assume that you're right.

part of the general population are people diagnosed with cardiac arrythmias

if the article says these people live longer if they take caffeine...then its an irresponsible article.....based on nonsense..possibly sponsored by the coffee industry

part of the general population are people with stmach ulcers....if the article says these people live longer if given caffeine....thye are irresponsible...and may be sponsored by starbucks

Part of the general populations are people suffering from OCD....if the article says these people are better off and live longer taking caffeine...then maybe the article was writtem by Juan Valdez.

Part of the general population are those with moderate to severe renal disease.....if the article says that these people are better off taking caffeine....then maybe the person writting it has a stake in Dunkin Donuts.

We learn alot medically on these boards from the novice [poster. Alcohol has nno effect on the ability to win at gambling, caffeine is harmless to the general population without qualifications, and cranberries cleanse the kidneys.


I will make a deal with you....I wont come to home depot and load lumber...if you dont try to decipher medical information that is over your head.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Maybe if you too the time to read that article you would see that it does apply to the general population.

Or you can just keep guessing, and assume that you're right.

part of the general population are people diagnosed with cardiac arrythmias

if the article says these people live longer if they take caffeine...then its an irresponsible article.....based on nonsense..possibly sponsored by the coffee industry

part of the general population are people with stmach ulcers....if the article says these people live longer if given caffeine....thye are irresponsible...and may be sponsored by starbucks

Part of the general populations are people suffering from OCD....if the article says these people are better off and live longer taking caffeine...then maybe the article was writtem by Juan Valdez.

Part of the general population are those with moderate to severe renal disease.....if the article says that these people are better off taking caffeine....then maybe the person writting it has a stake in Dunkin Donuts.

We learn alot medically on these boards from the novice [poster. Alcohol has nno effect on the ability to win at gambling, caffeine is harmless to the general population without qualifications, and cranberries cleanse the kidneys.


I will make a deal with you....I wont come to home depot and load lumber...if you dont try to decipher medical information that is over your head.

Quote: rudeboyoi

This suggestion is delivered in a helpful tone.

its wrong, but in a helpful tone

Maybe you should stop guessing and read it. Or you could just keep being proud of your ignorance.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Maybe you should stop guessing and read it. Or you could just keep being proud of your ignorance.

I tried to read the article but it costs money.

All that shows me is an advertisement written by someone looking to get sales for an article.

I do not know anything about the methods of the study, where the study took place, under what controlled cnditions it took place, if it was sponsored by the caffeine industry, if the medication profileof these people was monitored. If people with hypertension, OCD, renal disease, GI ulcers, seazure disorders were disqualified from the study.

Its an advertisement for an article in a caffeine journal.

People who are trained to read medical information critcally, know what to look for as far as aspects of what a study entails and the methods and controls used.

the link you proudly show me tells me nothing as to the credibility or the specifics. No real facts are produced, no statistics are broken down

No mention of the tens of millons of the people in this country alone for whom caffeine is contraindicated....for whom its anything but harmless.


I know people like yourself like to look at snippets of info anf draw conclusions. But thats unhealthy.

i wont give you feedback on how to get the newspaper to the top step.......and in turn dont try to pretend you understand an entire medical study based on a few sentences.

http://www.liebertpub.com/nv/company/about-us/1/


she caters to academia, industry and govt

not to healthcare

I have a feeling she is boought and paid for by industry.

people need to look at studies critically, find out if they are independant, or if sponsored by industry.

It takes hours to read and digest a study and even more time tracking down ancillary info that may not be apparent.

but it does make a very good 30 second soundbite for a news program

All you really seem to be saying here is that people with certain medical conditions shouldn't consume caffeine. You can replace "caffeine" with almost any other substance and be correct. People with peanut allergies shouldn't eat peanuts.

Quote: LarryS

"bad" psychiatric problems

Oh, come on.

And you didn't mention advanced age, the most common reason people are told to cut back on caffeine.

I was staying out of this till now, and should know better than to weigh in. But you are going on about this like some kind of Mormon Jihadist*. That makes me think you are just enjoying yourself being some kind of punchbowl turd.**

* exaggerated remark qualifying for Statler and Waldorf defense
** likewise

PS:

Quote: LarryS

I wont come to home depot and load lumber...if you dont try to decipher medical information that is over your head.

does this quality for S&W defense?

Barely.

I might offer a counter-argument later, or bring up some points from my final post on the subject in the other thread that LarryS deliberately failed to address, but probably not. Let's keep in mind, however, that we are talking about increasing caffeine in an effort to quit smoking, because, you know, smoking is better for people with heart problems or hypertension than caffeine.

That was sarcasm, by the way.

Last question: Who the Hell uses a gambling Forum as their primary source of medical advice, anyway? I apologize to the thousands of people I have undoubtedly killed by describing caffeine as, "Harmless."

Quote: Mission146

Barely.

I might offer a counter-argument later, or bring up some points from my final post on the subject in the other thread that LarryS deliberately failed to address, but probably not. Let's keep in mind, however, that we are talking about increasing caffeine in an effort to quit smoking, because, you know, smoking is better for people with heart problems or hypertension than caffeine.

That was sarcasm, by the way.

Last question: Who the Hell uses a gambling Forum as their primary source of medical advice, anyway? I apologize to the thousands of people I have undoubtedly killed by describing caffeine as, "Harmless."

Good I accept your apology even though I am now physically dependent on caffeine because I took your advice, I thought everyone on the internet was a doctor and qualified as such. How dare you misrepresent yourself!

Quote: Transcend

Good I accept your apology even though I am now physically dependent on caffeine because I took your advice, I thought everyone on the internet was a doctor and qualified as such. How dare you misrepresent yourself!

Ironically, the original post in question with which LarryS took issue all but specifically said I am not a doctor as it listed my exact educational attainment and in what field.

Quote: Mission146

Barely.

I might offer a counter-argument later, or bring up some points from my final post on the subject in the other thread that LarryS deliberately failed to address, but probably not. Let's keep in mind, however, that we are talking about increasing caffeine in an effort to quit smoking, because, you know, smoking is better for people with heart problems or hypertension than caffeine.

That was sarcasm, by the way.

Last question: Who the Hell uses a gambling Forum as their primary source of medical advice, anyway? I apologize to the thousands of people I have undoubtedly killed by describing caffeine as, "Harmless."

Mission, you think too low! Don't you know this is also the number one place for relationship advice? Why not health advice too? Screw WebMD (and Dr. Phil, too).

You gotta give caffeine the WoV "bump".

Quote: odiousgambit

Oh, come on.

And you didn't mention advanced age, the most common reason people are told to cut back on caffeine.

I was staying out of this till now, and should know better than to weigh in. But you are going on about this like some kind of Mormon Jihadist*. That makes me think you are just enjoying yourself being some kind of punchbowl turd.**

* exaggerated remark qualifying for Statler and Waldorf defense
** likewise

PS: does this quality for S&W defense?

I didnt metion advanced age because they are included in the other categories I mentioned.
If you notice by mentioning the other conditions it puts caffeine negatively affecting the circulatory system including the heart, the central nervopus system including the brain, and the renal system....for people who have issues with these systems. That includes alot of people including the elderly.
In the elderly, they have more fragile systems, more likely to get a stroke, heart palpitations, renal issues, ....so yes they are more fragile in general and shouldnt take an added stimulant. The elderly are included in the categories of high risk disease states and medication users.


People can be allergic to peanuts, people can be allergic to caffeine containing products, ......big deal. Heck, people can be allergic to caterpillars.
So whats the point....people can be allergic to catterpillars...and therefore the info about caffeine is invalid> A handful of people can die from peanuts each year, a handfull of people can die from shellfish,...therefore its ok for tens of millions of at risk people to ingest caffeine.

I guess people can have the atttdude that the world can end tomorrow.....they can get hit by a car tomorrow..and therefore anything goes.

But if there is one person out there who hasnt seen their doctor for 5 years, and drinks coffee and reads the possible consequences and contraindications, and views caffeine as a"drug",.....and does the prudent thing and gets a check up to see if they can continue on this drug........then that is a good thing.

Yes people generally dont seek medical info from a gambling site. But as we see here people get mis-information from somewhere. Someone tells us that cranberries cleanse the kidneys......and was thanked for that info. Others have no clue that alcohol affects their discipline, decision making and self control, and others have no clue that caffeine is a drug that is contrindicated with many common disease states and many common prescription meds.

If people read this thread and went off on their own and pulled up webmd or a similar site and found themselves to be at risk....then that is great. They dont have to take my word for it.

Everything I posted is factual.

People can do what they want with the info


My aunt smoked 2 packs a day, and drank like a fish....she lived till 90. Would it be responsible for her to proclaim that smoking and drinking alot are harmless?

Increasing caffeine is not an accepted medical practice. Heck there are very very expensive prescription meds that treat nicotine addiction. And most insurance companies pay for it. Do you think they want to pay that expense if the person can be sent home by their md with a preciption for caffeine capsules..a much cheaper alternative. And the presciption meds that treat nicotine addiction have a world of side effects....some of them serious. Yet insurance companies and mds are not promoting the excess caffeine method. Believe me..if insurance companies can get out of paying an extra dollar for meds they would do it.

Smoking damages the walls of bloood vesels. More people die from blood vessel/cardiac issues from smoking than from lung cancer. And adding a stimulant like caffeine to the damaged vessels can be too taxing. THIS is why people educated in medicine do not tell people who smoke(have damaged blood vessels).to increase caffeine. That would involve malpractice.

So the argument that smoking addiction is more harmful than taking extra caffeine......would be an argument if you had a healthy person. Yes a perfectly healthy person taking alot of caffeine is indeed better off than a different prerson that smokes everyday. But the combination is unheathy.

seeing peoples understanding of alcohol, caffeine, and medicinal use of cranberries...maybe they dont get their medical info from a gambling site.....maybe they are getting it from a philosophy site, or a home repair site.....but surely not from a medical site.