Airbus A-380
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I flew out of Las Vegas early on the 2nd Janaury to LAX. I obviously had a very heavy bag (60 lbs) as I was connecting to ICN. Firstly the day after New Years is NOT the day to be flying out of Vegas to go anywhere, not with 335,000 people trying to get home. Whe I got to the Delta baggage drop off desk the lady informs me that I have to pay $75 in overweight fees. I politely inform her that I'm a Skyteam member and I'm flying international business class on my next leg. She politely informs me that the computer had already taken my international leg into consideration and that if it wasn't for that, I would be paying $125.........Delta can suck it (but I still paid).
When getting to the Korean Air check in desk at LAX I was informed that Delta should BY NO MEANS have charged me anything.............Now I'm steaming!
I get through security and try to find some bacon and eggs. I find one place that offers my fare. It is called "2 eggs ANY WAY", extra for bacon or ham. I order two eggs over medium with bacon and a mango juice. My total comes to $22.33. I choked on some spit and paid the bill. 20 minutes later and I'm still waiting. I'm having a ball watching all the Michigan State supporters traversing the place going to wherever it is they come from after their exciting Rose Bowl victory. A lady comes out and says the following....and I can't make this s@%t up....."Sorry Sir but we can't do your eggs over medium as the chef has thrown all the eggs together into a bowl". I again choke on some spit and inform her that scrambled is just fine. Another 20 minutes passes and the allure of the Michigan people has long since faded and now I'm just hungry. Finally the same woman shows up with two brown cardboard containers. One with eggs, potatoes and dry toast, the other with burned bacon. The absolute topper was the plastic cutlery which couldn't even pierce the potatoes without bending like Beckham.........I'm done with airport food!!!
Anyway so the A-380 is awaiting. The boarding process was super smooth. They boarded the entire plane in 20 minutes, no mean feat for a craft that holds in excess of 400 people. I sat in seat 15-H (window) right over the right wing on the 2nd (upper) level. The first thing that grabbed me was the very plain and unnatractive decor. Beige kosmos sleeper seats with light blue seats. Everything in the entire cabin was beige and light blue......Boring! The seats however are very comfortable as they recline all the way and you have a flat bed to sleep in. I also had nobody next to me so that is always a bonus. The cabin crew on Korean Air are exceptional. You never need for anything, they always get the food right and they are cute too :)
Sitting on the runway awaiting take off I couldn't help but gawk at the sheer size of the one wing I could see. How on God's green earth can this thing even get in the air? As the Captain or FO opened the throttles to those massive Rolls Royce Trent 970/B's I could hardly hear anything. The acceleration was smooth and takeoff was even smoother. There were no creaks and groans as is akin with the 747 although the A380 is still very new and the groans set in after about 100,000 hours I guess.
As mentioned before the service is outstanding and the food is top class. Korean Air has their own beef farm just outside of Seoul and it shows.......
The in-flight entertainment was also very comprehensive. I watched Runner Runner and We're the Millers. There are also 3 external cameras on the A380 for live viewing. One in the nose (forward), another in the belly (down) and one in the vertical tail wing (full aircraft).
After your nap, just before they get ready to serve dinner the aircraft lighting system kindly and subtly wakes you up. The whole cabin has LED lights throughout and the hues are simply delightful. They go from soft blue to cool yellow to a beautiful orange before being replaced by the white lights......You couldn't wake up in a better, more romantic setting. Pity I was alone :)
The flight was uneventful with hardly any rough air. The landing was exceptionally smooth even for a little aircraft, notwithstanding the fact that this thing is HUGE.
I know Korean Air pilots have been given a bad rap due to their culture getting in the way of their duties but this crew was exceptional.
I made this a poll as I know there will no doubt be the group on either side of the "Eurotrash Airbus" and "Bigger, badder, better Boeing" voting.
The A380 gets 4 thumbs up from me. She is big, smooth, quiet and magnificent!!
Viva La France :)
Quote: TranscendI deal with Korean airline pilots quite often at my job and they have all been very nice people and they must be doing a good job with how often I see them. I can't say as to their performance first hand but they certainly are very nice people.
They have their problems but overall I feel like they are improving and they are extremely nice people.
As long as they don't let their culture get in the way of logical decision making, they will be just fine!
Quote: Tomspur
As long as they don't let their culture get in the way of logical decision making, they will be just fine!
How does their culture get in the way of
flying an airplane.
Quote: EvenBobHow does their culture get in the way of
flying an airplane.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_incidents_and_accidents
Hasn't been a problem in a decade and a half though
In particular:
Quote:Tapes from the flight’s blackbox revealed that the first officer and flight engineer recognized that the captain was tired and oblivious to mechanical dangers the plane was experiencing. But they could only “hint” at the problems; confronting the captain directly was out of the question even after it became clear that disaster was imminent.
Quote: AxiomOfChoicehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_incidents_and_accidents
Hasn't been a problem in a decade and a half though
I guess we will find out when the Asiana Airlines transcripts and final reports are released. There is speculation that this could again have reared its ugly head but again, it is only speculation.
Bob, culture is a pretty powerful thing didn't you know? :)
Quote: TomspurI guess we will find out when the Asiana Airlines transcripts and final reports are released. There is speculation that this could again have reared its ugly head but again, it is only speculation.
Different airlines means different procedures and, possibly, different potential for problems.
The point is that Korean Air, in particular, solved this problem. Since their changes, they have had an excellent safety record (quite literally, they went from one of the worst to one of the best, practically overnight. They were off-the-charts bad before)
Better to die than be rude, I can understand that.
I have a friend who joined the AF as an officer in
1971 to get out of being drafted. He had a thing
for languages and they taught him Korean in 3
months and he spent 2 years there as an interpreter.
The stories he told when he got home. He liked the
women but said he would never marry one because
they're all bat-shit crazy by our standards. You never
know what they're going to do.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceDifferent airlines means different procedures and, possibly, different potential for problems.
The point is that Korean Air, in particular, solved this problem. Since their changes, they have had an excellent safety record (quite literally, they went from one of the worst to one of the best, practically overnight. They were off-the-charts bad before)
Different Airlines, same culture :) but I absolutely get what you are saying.
I have had quite a few conversations with quite a few people and everyone seems to have this bad opinion about Korean Air pilots......I don't get the same feeling about them. I think they are professional and well spoken.
I must say that it could perhaps be a different story when they are put under pressure during an emergency of some sort but I truly hope I never find out!
Quote: EvenBob"confronting the captain directly was out of the question even after it became clear that disaster was imminent."
Better to die than be rude
I think that there's more to it than that. One of the problems (and I don't speak Korean, so this is just my understanding, from what I've read) is that there is practically a whole different language that you use when addressing superiors than when addressing friends or inferiors. In the language that you use to address superiors, there simply aren't words to confront them directly. Those words simply aren't part of the language. In fact, one of the major changes that they made (and that improved the safety record) was to require all communication to be done in English (that is mentioned in the article, that I linked, but it was kind of glossed over)
Now, these are all Korean natives who are working for the airline. Korean is their first language. Communicating in a 2nd language is safer than communicating in their mother tongue... think about that for a second.
I think that this is really the key point: It's not that the people were being illogical and choosing to die rather to be rude (they are not idiots, after all). It's that the language that they were using was having an effect on the way that they interacted with each other. Language does not only give us a way of expressing our thoughts; it has an effect on what our thoughts actually are (that's the theory, anyway).
I first read about this Korean Air thing in an article about linguistics and their effect on how we think (unfortunately, I couldn't find that article with a quick search). It's fascinating how the human brain works.
Quote: EvenBob"confronting the captain directly was out of the question even after it became clear that disaster was imminent."
Better to die than be rude, I can understand that.
I have a friend who joined the AF as an officer in
1971 to get out of being drafted. He had a thing
for languages and they taught him Korean in 3
months and he spent 2 years there as an interpreter.
The stories he told when he got home. He liked the
women but said he would never marry one because
they're all bat-shit crazy by our standards. You never
know what they're going to do.
I'm not even trying to date any of them and I can tell you they have a penchant for drama......so perhaps bat shit crazy may be a bit of a stretch but certainly very high maintenance.
Quote: TomspurI'm not even trying to date any of them and I can tell you they have a penchant for drama......so perhaps bat shit crazy may be a bit of a stretch but certainly very high maintenance.
I've dated Korean women. No problems at all.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI think that there's more to it than that. One of the problems (and I don't speak Korean, so this is just my understanding, from what I've read) is that there is practically a whole different language that you use when addressing superiors than when addressing friends or inferiors. In the language that you use to address superiors, there simply aren't words to confront them directly. Those words simply aren't part of the language. In fact, one of the major changes that they made (and that improved the safety record) was to require all communication to be done in English (that is mentioned in the article, that I linked, but it was kind of glossed over)
Now, these are all Korean natives who are working for the airline. Korean is their first language. Communicating in a 2nd language is safer than communicating in their mother tongue... think about that for a second.
I think that this is really the key point: It's not that the people were being illogical and choosing to die rather to be rude (they are not idiots, after all). It's that the language that they were using was having an effect on the way that they interacted with each other. Language does not only give us a way of expressing our thoughts; it has an effect on what our thoughts actually are (that's the theory, anyway).
I first read about this Korean Air thing in an article about linguistics and their effect on how we think (unfortunately, I couldn't find that article with a quick search). It's fascinating how the human brain works.
Absolutely spot on. In fact I work in Korea and I find it quite amazing to watch them interact with one another. They would rather die than disrespect their elders and their language bears this out perfectly.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI've dated Korean women. No problems at all.
Korean women who live in Korea or Americanised Korean women?
Also how long ago? They are a rapidly evolving society and here the only thing that trumps their culture under the younger brigade is their vanity......
Quote: TomspurI'm not even trying to date any of them and I can tell you they have a penchant for drama......so perhaps bat shit crazy may be a bit of a stretch but certainly very high maintenance.
More than likely why my retired Korean coworker has two jobs...he never wants to be home...he sleeps in his car at work sometimes to avoid going home to the wife.
Quote: TranscendMore than likely why my retired Korean coworker has two jobs...he never wants to be home...he sleeps in his car at work sometimes to avoid going home to the wife.
That's some funny s%&t :)
Quote: TomspurKorean women who live in Korea or Americanised Korean women?
Also how long ago? They are a rapidly evolving society and here the only thing that trumps their culture under the younger brigade is their vanity......
About 5 years ago, I dated a girl who had just moved to the US from Seoul, where she had lived for her whole life. She had been in the US for a few months when I met her. Other Korean women who I've dated have been more "Americanized", as you put it.
Although, she did mention that one of the reasons that she left was that she didn't really like the culture there, so there could be some selection bias there.
As far as I'm concerned, Korea has the best food and the most beautiful women :)
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceAbout 5 years ago, I dated a girl who had just moved to the US from Seoul, where she had lived for her whole life. She had been in the US for a few months when I met her. Other Korean women who I've dated have been more "Americanized", as you put it.
Although, she did mention that one of the reasons that she left was that she didn't really like the culture there, so there could be some selection bias there.
As far as I'm concerned, Korea has the best food and the most beautiful women :)
I have to agree about the food. It is simply delicious and the portions are just right for me. As for the women on the excrutiatingly slim chance that my wife may read this forum or indeed thread I will have to say that American girls are the most beautiful, closely folowed by Russians and then Koreans :)
Quote: TomspurI'm not even trying to date any of them and I can tell you they have a penchant for drama......so perhaps bat shit crazy may be a bit of a stretch but certainly very high maintenance.
They're unpredictable. Penchant for drama is a good
definition, everything is blown out of proportion. In
our culture that's called acting crazy.
Quote: TomspurI will have to say that American girls are the most beautiful, closely folowed by Russians and then Koreans :)
I gotta agree about American women. Most Americans are a mixture of ethnicities, and this seems to produce the best looking women. I also agree about Russians. Slavic women in general are beautiful, although they don't age very well. OTOH, Asian women age extremely well. In fact, I recently bumped into an Asian woman I went to school with, and I swear, she barely aged at all. And the last time I had seen her was 30+ years ago! I doubt she thought the same thing about me though. lol
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI've dated Korean women. No problems at all.
Dating and marrying are two different worlds.
Quote: Beethoven9thI gotta agree about American women. Most Americans are a mixture of ethnicities, and this seems to produce the best looking women.l
Naw. Go to the Netherlands, your jaw will hit
the floor. Blond haired blue eyed beauties
everywhere you look. It should be illegal.
Quote: EvenBobDating and marrying are two different worlds.
Marrying and dating are no problems at all, as long as the two respective girls never meet :)
Quote: EvenBobNaw. Go to the Netherlands, your jaw will hit
the floor. Blond haired blue eyed beauties
everywhere you look. It should be illegal.
I have strong dutch bloody coursing through my veins and for me the Dutch are far too "hard" looking. They are good old girls who enjoy ploughing the fields and then ploughing a few draft beers :)
The women in the windows are very rarely Dutch Bob :)
Quote: EvenBobNaw. Go to the Netherlands, your jaw will hit
the floor.
Ah, totally forgot about Scandinavian women. They seem to age better than the Slavs too.
Quote: Beethoven9thAh, totally forgot about Scandinavian women. They seem to age better than the Slavs too.
Ok so let's put a timeline together
You want to.............
1) Date a slav
2) Find a pretty American girl for your first marriage
3) In your 40's to 50's you want to date or marry an Asian woman just to say you have done it
4) Land up marrying a Dane or Swede in your old age. They are nymphos and will make you feel good well into your 80's without ever looking too haggard.
Quote: Tomspur
The women in the windows are very rarely Dutch Bob :)
Have you been to Holland or any of those
countries? Gorgeous women everywhere.
Quote: EvenBobHave you been to Holland or any of those
countries? Gorgeous women everywhere.
I have been to so many countries I can hardly keep them all straight. In my mind the hottest women are in the following order:
1) Tallinn, Estonia
2) Mother Russia
3) South African girls
4) American women
5) Danish girls
6) Korean girls
7) Australian girls
Or something like that
Quote: TomspurI have been to so many countries I can hardly keep them all straight. In my mind the hottest women are in the following order:
1) Tallinn, Estonia
Don't most Estonians have Finnish roots?
Quote: Beethoven9thDon't most Estonians have Finnish roots?
Mix between Scandianvian and Slavic blood
Quote: Beethoven9thDon't most Estonians have Finnish roots?
Norwegian, Danish, Finnish, Holland, Netherlands,
what's the difference. They have blond hair, long
legs and blue eyes. Even in Iceland, where they
settled eons ago. We have the largest settlement
of people from the Netherlands in W MI in the
world, outside of that area. Go to church on Sunday,
your neck will get sore from the drop dead beauties.
Quote: TomspurMarrying and dating are no problems at all, as long as the two respective girls never meet :)
This made my morning.
http://www.chron.com/news/world/article/Singapore-Airlines-A380-makes-emergency-landing-5117121.php
Here's another article regarding aircraft, specifically the 747 that's going to go away.
http://news.yahoo.com/rip-747-two-engines-enough-104500511--politics.html
Some of the reader comments say they feel more comfy with 4 engines than they do with 2. I don't fly over oceans so it makes no difference to me.
P.S.: what I've done with Korean women could hardly be called dating.
Korean pilots come from the military which means hot shot fighter pilots, not bomber or tanker pilots
Korean pilot testing is precise. Each test is predictable, the exact same problem at the exact same point in the test. No variation. Nothing unexpected. The written test, the practical test... its all utterly fixed and inviolate. Once a decision has been made... that is it.
One American pilot oversaw the Korean determination of English language knowledge. The Korean committee had seven members, only two which spoke English sufficiently well to be involved in the task and they were the junior committee members. The proceedings were conducted in Korean, not English.
Quote: AxiomOfChoicehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_incidents_and_accidents
Hasn't been a problem in a decade and a half though
the best line I read from that whole wiki entry. "...the pilot instructed the co-pilot to pull the fuse from the warning system because the repeated warnings that the landing gear was not deployed were, "irritating and distracting," him as he attempted to land..." LMFAO
Quote: Tomspur... When getting to the Korean Air check in desk at LAX I was informed that Delta should BY NO MEANS have charged me anything.............Now I'm steaming!
Back to the topic of your experience with Delta...
A couple of years ago, my wife and I were booked on Delta (our usual airline) from Charlotte via Atlanta to Las Vegas. Because of bad weather in the northeast, Delta did not have equipment available to get us to Atlanta in time for our connection. Instead, they put us on a USAir flight directly from CLT to LAS. The only problem was that I get free checked baggage on Delta, while USAir insisted that I pay their baggage fee if we wanted to board the aircraft.
Rather than miss our trip, I paid the fee at check-in, but I followed up with Delta. Their customer relations folks reimbursed the fee that I had paid to USAir. It took a couple of steps to get that done -- I was told that it would have been a very simple matter to get a Delta fee refunded, but different folks were involved in approving a refund of money that Delta never received. They got the money back to me anyway, though I don't know whether it made any difference that I pointed out that USAir had roomier seats and got us to LAS a couple of hours earlier than our booked one-stop itinerary with Delta.
I suggest that you follow up with Korean Air customer service and see whether they can get your money back from Delta for you.
I've never flown a non-american carrier, but it seems like several of them offer an experience that is far superior to the service provided by US-based companies. Maybe it's time to take the chip collecting effort overseas:-)
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI think that there's more to it than that. One of the problems (and I don't speak Korean, so this is just my understanding, from what I've read) is that there is practically a whole different language that you use when addressing superiors than when addressing friends or inferiors. In the language that you use to address superiors, there simply aren't words to confront them directly. Those words simply aren't part of the language. In fact, one of the major changes that they made (and that improved the safety record) was to require all communication to be done in English (that is mentioned in the article, that I linked, but it was kind of glossed over)
Now, these are all Korean natives who are working for the airline. Korean is their first language. Communicating in a 2nd language is safer than communicating in their mother tongue... think about that for a second.
I think that this is really the key point: It's not that the people were being illogical and choosing to die rather to be rude (they are not idiots, after all). It's that the language that they were using was having an effect on the way that they interacted with each other. Language does not only give us a way of expressing our thoughts; it has an effect on what our thoughts actually are (that's the theory, anyway).
I first read about this Korean Air thing in an article about linguistics and their effect on how we think (unfortunately, I couldn't find that article with a quick search). It's fascinating how the human brain works.
Axiom,
I will respectfully disagree with this, because I think it's accurate in pinpointing the cultural and language issues. However, the ICAO (the ruling body for international aviation), the FAA, and EuroControl made it mandatory more than 20 years ago (think it was 1992 but it was a series of orders) that all aviation communications would be conducted in "aviation English", and that all licensed operators working internationally were required to conduct their operations in English to eliminate any possible language barriers. Operators must pass both written and oral exams proving not just mastery of the language vocabulary-wise, but that pronunciation was within acceptable boundaries for general operation within the system (partly because of the fidelity loss over radio equipment, partly for the obvious reasons; the testing threshold is quite high).
KAL was experiencing their cultural and language difficulties in that same 70's-80's time frame (in fact they were the "poster children" along with a couple of other groups) as they became international operators on a larger scale, and it's not surprising that their company operations would dictate that ALL discussion while underway be in English; IMO, a very good way to address some of their issues. However, it took a concerted effort from KAL and those they brought in to help (our aviation experts, psychologists, others) to completely retrain the crews in what is called CRM or cockpit resource management, a team approach completely counter to Korean culture. The retraining took nearly a generation of pilots, at some cost to themselves, as they became "Westernized" and somewhat rejected within their own social culture, but it's very true that their results have been both spectacular and commendable.
You may well be correct in dismissing the idea that Korean culture requires in some cases that subordinates would prefer to die rather than cause shame to their superior. However, my understanding is that there is, or was, a component to their culture that did indeed mandate just that, and changing that priority in a cultural understanding of honor, dignity, or integrity is among the hardest tasks to accomplish, because it must be the default behavior under extreme stress that changes. Koreans traditionally have/had a very fatalistic, matter-of-fact understanding about the importance of individual life (generally negligible) compared to the values of the whole that is completely foreign to Americans and many Europeans.
And yes, from everything I'm hearing, Asiana will most likely have causal factors related to this issue, and recommendations for retraining. The times, they are changing, but not on a dime.
Quote: beachbumbabsI will respectfully disagree with this, because I think it's accurate in pinpointing the cultural and language issues. However, the ICAO (the ruling body for international aviation), the FAA, and EuroControl made it mandatory more than 20 years ago (think it was 1992 but it was a series of orders) that all aviation communications would be conducted in "aviation English", and that all licensed operators working internationally were required to conduct their operations in English to eliminate any possible language barriers. Operators must pass both written and oral exams proving not just mastery of the language vocabulary-wise, but that pronunciation was within acceptable boundaries for general operation within the system (partly because of the fidelity loss over radio equipment, partly for the obvious reasons; the testing threshold is quite high).
Obviously you have actual work experience in this area, so I'm sure that you are familiar with the relevant regulations, but this seems to directly contradict what I've read. In more than one place, I've read that in 2000 (well after 1992), Korean Air hired someone from Delta Airlines (who had an excellent safety record) to look over their procedures and protocol, and, it was only as a result of this study that they began to communicate in English. See, for example: http://www.safetyxchange.org/compliance-risk-management/ethnic-culture-affects-safety-culture. I have read this in other articles on this topic in the past, as well.
Now, it may be that there is a single source of mis-information here that is being referenced by several articles. But... are you sure that they were speaking English in-flight on Korean Air in the late 90's? Everything that I've read points to this change (speaking English in-flight) as being a direct result of a recommendation made by the consultant from Delta (which happened well after 1992)
In other words... is this article wrong?
Quote: rdw4potusI've never flown a non-american carrier, but it seems like several of them offer an experience that is far superior to the service provided by US-based companies. Maybe it's time to take the chip collecting effort overseas:-)
Singapore Airlines year after year is considered to offer the best service in the world.
They are the diamond standard when it comes to service in the airline industry.
In fact some planes they fly are entirely 1st and business class. No coach seats. They also own some 380's.
They can also be expensive. You get what you pay for in this business, in the case of Singapore Airlines, world class service.
Emirates is also an excellent Airline, based in Dubai.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_incidents_and_accidents
Look at the crazy drop in incidents after the turn of the century. I don't know what they reason is for the turnaround as I don't have the necessary information but it is a drastic a turnaround as you will ever see in aviation.
Seems then that perhaps the change in cockpit etiquette only took place near the end of the 1990's?
Just a thought.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceObviously you have actual work experience in this area, so I'm sure that you are familiar with the relevant regulations, but this seems to directly contradict what I've read. In more than one place, I've read that in 2000 (well after 1992), Korean Air hired someone from Delta Airlines (who had an excellent safety record) to look over their procedures and protocol, and, it was only as a result of this study that they began to communicate in English. See, for example: http://www.safetyxchange.org/compliance-risk-management/ethnic-culture-affects-safety-culture. I have read this in other articles on this topic in the past, as well.
Now, it may be that there is a single source of mis-information here that is being referenced by several articles. But... are you sure that they were speaking English in-flight on Korean Air in the late 90's? Everything that I've read points to this change (speaking English in-flight) as being a direct result of a recommendation made by the consultant from Delta (which happened well after 1992)
In other words... is this article wrong?
Axiom,
I don't think your time frame is incorrect; I was speaking of the move to aviation English standard being a leap-off point for KAL to make their more-restrictive company policy after the successful move to ICAO English changed accident rates for the better worldwide. It is still not wrong for crews without such a company policy to have non-aviation conversation (hours of boredom and chitchat at altitude, especially for Pacific Fleets) in their native or a common non-English language; but KAL went the extra mile in making virtually ALL communication underway remain in English, not just checklists, procedures, and radio communication. There was also lax enforcement of English aviation in Asian countries in the first decade or so during the transition; domestically, they would speak in their native language even on the radios (so would ATC), and some companies (JAL/KAL for example) even employed English-only pilots (several guys I knew) to fly the international legs, do the communication in Europe/AnZed/American areas, and deadhead otherwise, because it was too hard for their pilots to learn the language and make themselves understood.
I think it was a natural extension of what was occurring and creative solution for the Delta consultant to suggest this, and took a lot of dedication from KAL to implement and police (the cockpit recorder is ALWAYS on, though it loops). It was my experience, though, while buried in this issue for a couple of decades, that the ICAO really led the way on universal language having such a positive effect on operations, and United and Delta (after spectacular FAILS by both companies that killed people, which is what helped them to dedicate the resources and time necessary to do a cultural revolution that spread through the industry) nearly simultaneously to invest so heavily in CRM techniques. What was general sloppiness/industly ignorance got identified and under control with the application of those principles, but for most aviators, it was not counter-culture; it was better operating practices. The Koreans were/are a very special case, really an order of magnitude more difficult because the concepts were unnatural, the language completely different in structure and meaning, and the application of lessons learned took some time as the science of CRM developed. Their corporate dedication must be incredible to adopt such a difficult change so successfully across the board.
We seem to be in agreement. They had a serious problem, hired someone to help them fixed it, realized that their problem was largely caused by language and culture, fixed the problem, and have had an excellent safety record ever since.
Personally, moving away from the practical considerations for a second, I find the effect of language on our thoughts to be fascinating.
No one denies that there is a Captain and only ONE Captain aboard an airliner, but some foreign cultures promote that Captain to an almost God-like figure. I understand that the Turkish language has several terms of address for pilots. One Turkish pilot even expected his entire crew to walk behind him like ducks. How do you get that last man in the line to speak up if he sees the Captain has done something wrong?
I think it was a Turkish airliner, might have been Egyptian though, wherein a female pilot made a mistake and the male Pilot In Command berated her at great length. The fellow male pilots thought it quite proper that she be berated and humiliated even though it in effect meant that the PIC had stopped flying the plane while he was fulfilling this cultural mandate to belittle the female. How do you get junior crew members to speak up in such a culture and say Sir, you must fly the plane now and berate the female later.
Russians don't even expect a pilot to manipulate the controls, Russians tend to look on the PIC as someone who tells other pilots what to do.
Its going to get worse. Some time ago a pilot in India tried to land an airliner on its nose wheel rather than flaring so as to land on the main landing gear. All the training and log books were fictitious but that is common in India where degrees and examination scores are routinely purchased.
Quote: FleaStiff
Its going to get worse. Some time ago a pilot in India tried to land an airliner on its nose wheel rather than flaring so as to land on the main landing gear. All the training and log books were fictitious but that is common in India where degrees and examination scores are routinely purchased.
This reminds me of when cars became affordable.
95% of people buying a new car had no idea how
to drive and different cultures approached it
differently. Brakes were especially problematic as
people had a tendency to go around something
in their path, rather than stopping, because that's
what a horse and buggy would do.
