100x Odds Craps Tables?

Once upon a time, more Vegas casinos offered great odds at the craps table. 10x odds, 20x odds, 100x odds etc. Today, on the main strip, the main casinos all offer 3x 4x 5x odds, and only the Stratosphere offers 10x odds, the Sahara 5x odds and the Casino Royale is the only place offering 100x odds. Heck, several places like Circus Circus, the Riviera and South Point offer only 2x odds!

Now, I understand that casinos don't want like the variance that these tables bring them, but I would argue that they bring a lot of other intangibles as well. First of all, it is fun being a $10 bettor and watching a high roller next to you play the pass line for $10 with $1000 worth of odds behind them. I would argue that having 100x odds tables will pack your tables, even though the vast majority of players won't fire it up that high.

Second, not all high rollers will just play the pass line/come, don't pass/don't come bets. They might start off with a $10 pass line bet with full odds, but then may place $2700 across. They might even throw down a couple of $100 hard ways, etc for fun.

Third, you wouldn't have to comp the high rollers who play only pass line/come, don't pass/don't come. A high roller who is used to royal treatment will at first be outraged why their $250,000 line of credit is getting them only free buffets, but after a while will either have to start making place bets or get used to the idea of being a flea.

Fourth, you would not need to do this at a top end casino, but a mid level casino like the Monte Carlo or Bally's. You know, a place where a high roller will be happy staying at their nicest suite (and paying the full rack rate for). Heck, this might even save places like Hooters from going under.

Okay, a casino like Hooters doesn't have to go crazy and offer 100x odds (they probably can't stand the variance), but why not 20x odds? That will make them the only casino in Vegas other then the Main Street Station and Casino Royale that offers such a thing. If Hooters cleans up their rooms and lobby a little, I might even consider giving them a shot at my money. After all, they are almost on the strip.

I would like to play at your table someday gambler. I'm 1/10 of your BR, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying watching the purple chips put in play.

While I think that Hooters should probably offer 10X odds, you have to consider that their pit makes an average of $18K per day. A player like yourself that may win $5K on a lucky day would stick out there. I am not sure precisely what the Gaming Commission rules are for the requirements of cash on hand, but it is possible that Hooters doesn't have more than $50K-$100K in their cage and another $100K-$200K in their combined ticket in/out ATM machines.

They might offer 100X odds and be required to keep more money in hand so that the cost of money exceeds any any boost in business.

But I think you are talking about something else which I agree with. Even 20 years ago they tell me that there was a whole different vibe downtown Las Vegas. People could play table games for a quarter. High rollers mixed with low rollers, and some of them relished the attention of being the whale in the room. The crowd brought a lot of energy to the place. Despite the huge differences in money, gambling had a kind of egalitarianism. Now there is almost always plenty of room to move around, and the high rollers are carefully separated away from everyone else. Some people don't develop an attachment for table games because they are afraid to begin.

A lot of it is that the culture has changed.

Okay, while having an extra $100K-$200K in the cage might be too much for Hooters, but what about a nice mid level casino like the Luxor, Monte Carlo or Bally's? Offering 10X odds would definately make them stand out from the crowd.

It does look like the strip has decided not to compete using gaming odds. Casino royale has only one craps table with 100X odds, and Stratosphere is actually inside the city limits of city of Vegas.

Eastside Cannery has 100X odds on Boulder strip.


Only Sam's Town and Main Street have 20X odds. Boyd Gaming has three casinos downtown. Two of those casinos have four tables apiece with 2X odds, and Main Street has only three tables.


In general there is very little variation of gaming odds anywhere on the strip. Small variations in blackjack games, and a handful of single zero roulette .

'Serious' craps players should get off the strip.

My friends are 'serious' craps players and focus their play at the Stratosphere, which you mentioned, and the El Cortez downtown, which has 10x odds. They only play pass+odds. They got a free flight from Phoenix to the Aquarius in Laughlin (owned by the Stratosphere people), and they get free rooms anytime and all the gourmet food they can eat at El Cortez.

Last time I met them in Vegas I introduced them to Eastside Cannery with 100x odds and we had a lot of fun. We also went to Joker's Wild, and that was a ton of fun too because I don't think they had ever seen high rollers before. The green chips had dust on them!

I think Rampart Casino in Summerlin has 100x odds too but that may have changed.

Edit: I would be interested to know if they comp rooms there since the hotel and casino are operated by different corporate entities (J.W. Marriott Corp. v. Cannery Casinos Corp.).

Actually Rampart would be a good place for gambler if he is still reading this thread. The Marriot at Summerlin is a 4 diamond hotel. And you are correct, they do have 100x odds on craps. I think they have a $1000 limit on odds.

Cannery Casinos does not own the casino. The property was built by Swiss Casinos of America which was a majority-owned subsidiary of Swiss Casinos Holding AG. The goal was build a super luxury 5 star resort in Summerlin. The project collapsed horribly and lost a fortune. They sold the property to Millenium Corporation who hired Marriot to run the hotel and Cannery was given a 10 year contract (which may have been renewed) to manage the casino.

The only Mobil 5 star resorts are The Tower at Wynn, and The Skylofts at MGM Grand. I am not even sure if the Four Seasons in Mandalay Bay has 5 stars.

My understanding of 100x is that it is more significant on the marquee than at the table since so few gamblers actually make use of 100x, most rarely going beyond 20x. While I consider 2x tables to be "cheap" if that is what a vast majority of players are comfortable doing, why should a casino offer more than 2x since it clearly doesn't have to?

Flea -

Why offer more odds if most people stick with 2x? Simple.

If a player is doing well, he may want to increase his odds. By restricting it to 2x, the casino is limiting their chance to win that money back.

And you're right. It does look better on the marquee.

Quote: teddys

I think Rampart Casino in Summerlin has 100x odds too but that may have changed.

I checked out the Rampart website yesterday and they do say they have 100X odds. The Wizard's survey agrees. It would be something nice to try after coffee and ten play DW.

BTW last time in vegas I got a "How to win at craps" book. Yes, I know better than to buy into a "system," I just wanted a concise explanation of the game. The book actually gives fair advice. The author says the reader ought to stick with pass/don't pass and come/don't come bets exclusively, but he only recommends 2X odds (he warns against all center bets, prop bets, etc). So I wonder if that kind of book proliferates widely, and thus a lot of people are stuck on a 2X odds frame of mind.

About the Rampart's comps, the website had little info. I couldn't even sign up online because they lack a "Country" field.

Quote: gambler

Once upon a time, more Vegas casinos offered great odds at the craps table. 10x odds, 20x odds, 100x odds etc.
.

When I first starting coming to Vegas (pre Mirage) the main strip casino's only had double odds. Most tables were $3 or $5 minimums then, Caesars was $5 or $10 with a high roller table of $25. I thought it was a big step up when they went to 3x4x5x, not sure if they used to offer large odds before the 70's or not. The first place I remember seeing large odds was Binions when it used to be 100X and a 10 cent minimum table. Could have a lot of fun for cheap on that table.

Quote: Nareed

I wonder if that kind of book proliferates widely, and thus a lot of people are stuck on a 2X odds frame of mind.

No, I don't think so. Its more likely that most players focus on the LineBet and relate that to the table minimum. They are comfortable at a 10.00 table and an odds bet is thought of as one or two additional bets, so thats fine emotionally. The Ten dollars on the line and one thousand in odds that is alien to their thinking.

Quote: kenarman

When I first starting coming to Vegas (pre Mirage) the main strip casino's only had double odds. Most tables were $3 or $5 minimums then, Caesars was $5 or $10 with a high roller table of $25. I thought it was a big step up when they went to 3x4x5x, not sure if they used to offer large odds before the 70's or not. The first place I remember seeing large odds was Binions when it used to be 100X and a 10 cent minimum table. Could have a lot of fun for cheap on that table.

This is very informative. Some people say Sahara was the first casino to offer odds of any kind. I would have to think it originated in street/floating craps games, and then somebody tried it in a casino and one of the them allowed it. Pretty much everybody had to do it then. Binion's is generally regarded as the first place to offer ultra-high odds. Now, of course, it's all over the place but as pointed out, the strip has managed to stay at 3x4x5x for the majority.

Quote: Nareed

I checked out the Rampart website yesterday and they do say they have 100X odds. The Wizard's survey agrees. It would be something nice to try after coffee and ten play DW.

Maybe we could see the Wizard bet $3000 per roll?

Quote: teddys

Maybe we could see the Wizard bet $3000 per roll?

Rampart has $1000 maximum, which I believe is the maximum odds you can have on the table at any one time. Rampart is not for hard core gamblers, but it is a nice resort. They need something to compete with the strip. I believe that Eastside Cannery and Casino Royale also limit you to $1000.

Main Street has either $2000 or $2500 (6/8 only) but that applies to every single bet (pass line and come bet). They have 20X odds. Sam's Town has 20X odds now. It's actually a pretty big collection of casinos that offers 10X odds.

If you find the oldest stuff on line they talk about 2X odds being the standard, and 3,4,5X being the new idea. You can find out what was the first casino to offer surrender but I'm not sure who started odds.

Quote: teddys

Maybe we could see the Wizard bet $3000 per roll?

You can see me nervously bet $30 per roll, too :D

Paco, the $1000 max is per bet or per roll? In other words, can I bet $10 pass line with $1000 odds, then $10 on come with $1000 odds? Thanks.

The lure of high odds multiples is the ability to use a progressive betting system where the progression is only on the odds bet, so you add no expected loss, just variance. There is a system called "tough craps" that a guy on rec.gambling.craps used to advocate. He bet table minimum on the line, starting, IIRC, at double odds and progressing the odds on every point win, going back to double after a seven out. One of the drawbacks of progressing line or place bets is that you keep adding expected loss every time. The other drawback, losing back money you've won, still applies, of course.

The higher the odds multiple, the farther you can go without ever increasing your line bet, hence your expected loss. Of course, it's going to be a rare session when you'd get past 10 X odds, anyway.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen anyone go above 10X, high rollers included. I think my buddies got up to $50 on a $5 bet at Eastside Cannery when we got on a hot roll, but I don't think they went any higher than that. Personally, I look for the best minimums to odds ratio. That's why the $1/10x odds at Joker's Wild is so appealing. I think the Fiesta's are $2/10x so I might try them next time. Of course, E. Cannery/Casino Royale is the best but like you said, you rarely go over ten, so give me the lowest minimum.

I am not sure if Rampart limit is per roll or on the table at one time. I think it is $1K on the table. Casinos do it both ways, so you have to ask. Main Street does it $2K-$2.5K per roll so you could end up with $10K on the table if you keep betting. I've never seen anyone bet more than $1K at one time. Sometimes if you call the casino they will connect you with the pit and they'll tell you.

I also look for the best minimums to odds ratio. The best I've seen downtown is $1/5x odds at Binion's. You can take all the action you want.

Quote: pacomartin

I also look for the best minimums to odds ratio. The best I've seen downtown is $1/5x odds at Binion's. You can take all the action you want.

Sound mathematically correct but if you bet one dollar on the line and five dollars in odds, you've got a measly six bucks in action. You can probably be there all day and swill a good deal of suds but as they say " the less you bet the more you lose every time that you win ". I'd prefer a ten dollar table. Sure it can eat through a bankroll faster but broke as I am at least I'd feel I had ventured out of the kiddie pool.

Quote: FleaStiff

Sound mathematically correct but if you bet one dollar on the line and five dollars in odds, you've got a measly six bucks in action.

Well you bet that every roll of the dice. The dealers will set up the come bets for you. Then you throw dollars here and there on the proposition bets. You are playing over $600 an hour at very low EV of roughly -$2.

Quote: FleaStiff

Quote: pacomartin

I also look for the best minimums to odds ratio. The best I've seen downtown is $1/5x odds at Binion's. You can take all the action you want.

Sound mathematically correct but if you bet one dollar on the line and five dollars in odds, you've got a measly six bucks in action. You can probably be there all day and swill a good deal of suds but as they say " the less you bet the more you lose every time that you win ". I'd prefer a ten dollar table. Sure it can eat through a bankroll faster but broke as I am at least I'd feel I had ventured out of the kiddie pool.

Nobody says you have to bet $1+$5. Everyone has his/her own comfort level. Who are you to criticize a low roller?
Cheers,
Alan Shank