Generous offers in Laughlin

I am a low roller, no two ways about it. Living full-time in the Vegas area, I bet small amounts pretty frequently. I mostly play blackjack at $5-$10 a hand, a little sports book, very little VP, and slots almost never. Not surprisingly, I never get offered free rooms or free meals in Vegas -- only discounts.

In Laughlin, it is a different story. The Edgewater and the Colorado Belle have been very aggressive in going after my play. I'm now being offered up to four stays a month on any days I want, plus dining credits, plus slot play. Yesterday in the mail I received vouchers for five two-night stays to give out to friends. The rooms at these two properties are old, old, old but clean. I have really enjoyed having a nearby getaway and I plan to continue to reward their generosity with my business.

Laughlin has eight or nine casinos scattered along the Colorado River about 90 minutes from Vegas. A friend compared the whole atmosphere to downtown Vegas on the water. It reminds me of an old Spring Break town in Florida with casinos. If you like low minimums and good value, I urge you to check it out.

Stats for Laughlin are close to downtown Las vegas.

Laughlin $492,514,000 in gaming revenue for 2009
Downtown $523,819,000 in gaming revenue for 2009
They both have about 10,000 rooms (Stratosphere is considered part of downtown by the gaming commission).
But while downtown has an 83% occupancy rate, it's about 63% in Laughlin.

There are 9 casinos. The three biggest moneymakers are Aquarius, Harrah's, and Riverside.

* 13288-02 : AQUARIUS CASINO RESORT : 1,907 rooms
* 10720-01 : HARRAH'S CASINO HOTEL LAUGHLIN : 1,561
* 00920-03 : RIVERSIDE RESORT & CASINO : 1,405

* 04177-02 : EDGEWATER HOTEL & CASINO : 1,450
* 10441-01 : COLORADO BELLE HOTEL & CASINO : 1,168
* 04737-04 : RIVER PALMS RESORT CASINO : 1,000
* 09430-01 : TROPICANA EXPRESS HOTEL & CASINO : 1,000
* 03403-05 : PIONEER HOTEL AND GAMBLING HALL : 416
* 01949-04 : GOLDEN NUGGET-LAUGHLIN : 300

Edgewater and Colorado Belle are owned by Anthony Marnell III who owns the M resort. He seems very concerned with customer satisfaction .

Tropicana Express and River Palms are owned by Tropicana Entertainment . Their other Nevada property is the Montbleu in Lake Tahoe. In addition to those three, they along with its affiliates, owns or operates 6 casinos and resorts in Indiana, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Atlantic City New Jersey. Total is 6,000 rooms, 9,000 slot positions and 250 table games. Carl Icahn owns 12.6 million shares of the company which I believe gives him a majority share.

Thanks for this. I hope to get to Laughlin sometime. It's just so hard to get away from Vegas and make time for it. You really have no reason to go if you have not exhausted everything in Vegas, to be honest.

My friends who live in Phoenix got flown up to one of the hotels on a chartered plane and got a free stay. It was in one of the newer hotels -- did one of them open recently, like within the last 5-10 years?

The Aquarius recently changed it's name and has new owners and was extensively remodeled. It was called the Flamingo Hilton Laughlin until 2006. My guess is that is the property he went to.

Don Laughlin opened the Riverside in 1966, but it only had six rooms. The Pioneer opened in 1979. The rest of them opened between 1982 and 1990 when Vegas was not building any new casinos. It's not really easier to get to from Los Angeles, and it is only slightly easier to get to from Phoenix. However, at the time it was hoping to attract more families looking for an inexpensive vacation, and without the seamy history of Vegas. The last of the big mafia busts was in 1984 when the Stardust and the Fremont were taken away from the gangsters for skimming.

Laughlin stopped expanding when Las Vegas entered it's modern era with the Mirage Casino.

I love Laughlin but it is mostly for sentimental reasons. My family would stay in the Tropicana Express (then the Ramada Express) when we would take our boat to Lake Mojave several times each summer. Unless you have a boat there isn't much more to do than gamble. It is great for low rollers there. You will never be without a $5 BJ table, and many places have $3 craps most of the time. My wife and I went there 7 or 8 times last year (yes, I am a degenerate).

We are very low rollers and we never need to pay for a room. We stay either at the Tropicana or Colorado Belle. Tropicana has almost entirely 2-deck games. The CB has the best poker room in Laughlin, but very low stakes. No limit games only run on weekends usually. It is hard to find a juicy game for good stakes most of the time. The games are still fun though. Dealers in most places are very friendly. Food is much cheaper than Vegas.

During the winter the town is full of the elderly (snowbirds). I am usually the youngest person in town by at least 30 years during cool months. During the summer there are a lot more families staying there so they can enjoy the river. No matter what time of year you are there, everybody is very friendly and much more laid back than Vegas.

If anyone has any questions about Laughlin, I can probably answer them.

Haven't been to Laughlin in over 15 years. Which hotels/properties are considered to be the nicest?

Quote: gambler

Haven't been to Laughlin in over 15 years. Which hotels/properties are considered to be the nicest?

Riverside is more expensive than the other hotels. I would assume that it is the nicest.

Quote: pacomartin

It's not really easier to get to from Los Angeles, and it is only slightly easier to get to from Phoenix.

It's a LOT easier to get to from Phoenix. From my house on the east side of the Phoenix area, Laughlin is a 4 hour drive. Vegas is about 5.5 hours... if you can get over Hoover Dam easily, which never happens. Construction delays and/or heavy traffic can add HOURS of delay. The recommended route to avoid delays at the dam is through Laughlin, which adds about 30 minutes to the trip (6 hours total).

I've been "rediscovering" Laughlin lately. For the last several years I had been partial to downtown LV but it no longer seems worth the extra effort to get there. Laughlin is all but unchanged since the late 80's and 90's when I'd visit several times a year. Everything there (hotels, streets, etc.) is showing its age. Streets and parking lots really need repaving, and every hotel room I've seen really needs a renovation.

Ranking the properties, they are all practically identical. Except for the Pioneer which is a noticeable step down, and the Golden Nugget which is a noticeable step up. The GN has always been a bit "too nice" for Laughlin, it's usually pretty deserted.

Two or three years ago, I remember seeing a lot of the evil 6:5 BJ. However, normal BJ has returned for the most part. Most casinos offer a good double deck game with good penetration.

Quote: Melman

I've been "rediscovering" Laughlin lately.

No traffic jams, no porn slappers, no condo-hustlers, no crosswalks, no hordes of drunken clubbers, no fancy shows, no fancy restaurants ... lots of free parking.

Unfortunately I've heard that the properties have been allowed to deteriorate.

If I were to go to Laughlin now, I'd visit the Pioneer as a reward for their former Education Page on their website... and to see what happened to real estate values in Bullhead City, AZ across the river.

Quote: teddys

You really have no reason to go if you have not exhausted everything in Vegas, to be honest.

Not really "everything." The only thing I need to have exhausted in Vegas is my personal self. Then I have to get away from the strip briefly before I can go at it again. This week's trip, we will be in Vegas three nights, then Palm Springs two nights (Villagefest one evening and Joshua Tree National Park for a day), then two nights in Laughlin. Yes, Laughlin is a casino town, too, but all casino environments are not the same. The river right outside the casinos is perhaps something like the boardwalk and beach outside the A/C casinos -- a very nice respite from the noise and neon. After Laughlin, it's back to Vegas for a second dose before heading home.

Laughlin is a magnet for elderly gamblers. The operative word there is cheap. It is also much less "sinful" than Vegas, with no strip clubs or people trying to thrust business cards for prostitutes in your hand. Here are my brief comments about the properties there:

Riverside: The oldest, and still family run, casino in Laughlin. Most of the staff have a lot of missing teeth, but I still think is has an edgy charm to it.

Aquarius: Haven't been there since it was the Flamingo Hilton. The old Flamingo often had very long lines and the staff was surly. Hopefully the Aquarius has turned things around.

Edgewater/Colorado Belle: The two are owned by MGM. However, I don't think they are connected to the same MGM-Mirage player reward program. Both nice clean properties that make a safe choice.

Ramada Express: Only property not along the river. I find it crowded and not particularly friendly. There is a museum of military-related stuff that is worth going to.

Pioneer: Small and rustic.

River Palms: I used to like this place when it was Sam's Town. I don't have any experience with the place since the ownership change, so will refrain from comment.

Golden Nugget: I don't have a lot of experience here, but the casino looked nice, with a tropical theme.

Harrah's: Despite other comments in this thread, I think Harrah's is the nicest property in Laughlin. I used to play video poker here once in a while, and was always treated very well. There is also a separate non-smoking casino. It also attracts a younger crowd than the other Laughlin casinos. In my opinion, Harrah's is the best property in Laughlin. One drawback is that it is about a half mile removed from the closest neighbor.

Avi: This may or may not be considered a "Laughlin" casino. It is about 10 miles south of town, at the southern tip of Nevada. It is also the only Indian casino in Nevada. I stayed here once and didn't think it had any benefits to outweigh the remote location.

Quote: Wizard

Edgewater/Colorado Belle: The two are owned by MGM. However, I don't think they are connected to the same MGM-Mirage player reward program. Both nice clean properties that make a safe choice.

Ramada Express: Only property not along the river. I find it crowded and not particularly friendly. There is a museum of military-related stuff that is worth going to.

River Palms: I used to like this place when it was Sam's Town. I don't have any experience with the place since the ownership change, so will refrain from comment.

Update on ownership
(1) Edgewater/Colorado Belle were sold by MGM-MIRAGE to Anthony Marnell (who owns M resort) in 2007.
(2) Ramada Express and River Palms are now owned by Tropicana Entertainment who owns Montbleau in Tahoe. Ramada Express is renamed Tropicana Express.
(3) Aquarius (former Flamingo Laughlin) is owned by ACEP who owns Stratosphere and Arizona Charlie's. Goldman Sachs is ultimate financial backing.
(4) Golden Nugget is owned by Landrys Restaurant. There were attempts in 2006 to sell this tiny property, but apparently no one thinks they can get enough to make it worthwhile.
(5) Don't know who owns Pioneer, but they also own the gift shop (former casino) in downtown Vegas.

Quote: Wizard

Laughlin is a magnet for elderly gamblers.

You post this immediatly below my post saying that I am heading to Laughlin?!? Well! I irately tell you, sir, that I highly resemble your characterization!

Quote: Wizard

Harrah's: ... attracts a younger crowd than the other Laughlin casinos.

I will accept that as your apology -- we will be staying at Harrah's.

No one has mentioned the Avi, an Indian casino about 10 miles south of Laughlin. The accommodations rank with the best in Laughlin, Golden Nugget and Harrahs. It also has the best pool area and by far the best beach on the river and an excellent golf course across the street.

Actually the Wizard mentioned Avi , but he wasn't very enthusiastic. Your description is much more positive.

The convention center stats say visitation is down 42% in Laughlin in 2009 compared to 2002. The drop was 21% from 2007 to 2009. That's a pretty severe drop. I'm not surprised they are generous with rooms.

Quote: pacomartin

I'm not surprised they are generous with rooms.

I'm such a low roller that we couldn't get a free room in Laughlin for the weekend. Saturday night is costing us $25 at Harrah's, but Sunday night is free. Guess I have to agree that they are being generous even to me. I'm a confirmed cheapskate. Our room (suite?) at Rio is $45/night though we got a couple of free nights on the last trip, our two nights in Palm Springs are paid for with travel reward points, and our airline tickets were purchased with frequent flier miles. Cash is pretty much reserved for use at the tables, both the dining and gambling varieties.

These are good comments. Maybe I will get there in a couple decades, when I've reached the typical demographic. For now, Vegas just has too much to offer. I can't say that I won't go there, but the opportunity may not present itself. I did think about taking down one of the freebie buses to Harrah's last trip to do a video poker promotion, but that didn't happen. One thing I think Laughlin is good for is cheap rooms on the weekend. If you have a car, you can usually stay there for less than half the cost of an LV room on weekends. Primm, Jean and Mesquite are good for this too. I guess it depends on the price of gas as well.
------------------
Pioneer is owned by Archon Gaming which is in the news a lot lately because their exectutive, Sue Lowden, is running against Harry Reid for the NV senate seat.

Quote: teddys

These are good comments. Maybe I will get there in a couple decades, when I've reached the typical demographic.
------------------
Pioneer is owned by Archon Gaming which is in the news a lot lately because their executive, Sue Lowden, is running against Harry Reid for the NV senate seat.

Without a new hotel in 20 years, and a 42% drop in visitation over the last 7 years, I don't know how good it will look in a couple decades. ACEP claims that Aquarius is doing very well after their makeover.

The Wizard's rough impressions of the properties in Laughlin still hold true, more or less.

Now the Aquarius probably has the nicest rooms in town because they have all been remodeled, in a pretty chic style. Golden Nugget is pretty nice, too, though the rooms aren't anything special. I have never been inside a room at Harrah's, but I would imagine that those are pretty nice as well.

I have never understood why the Riverside's rooms are the most expensive. It might just be that the Riverside has the biggest following and historical tradition. If the casino floor is any sign, I wouldn't pay more for a room there. "Edgy charm" is a generous description.

I have to agree about Laughlin attracting an older crowd in general. When I go, I am definitely an outlier (still in my 20s). There are a handful of bars/clubs that attract a younger crowd and stay open late.

Made it to Laughlin last Spring. Loved it. The river is wonderful. Take the speedboat/ferry down to Harrah's if you are staying elsewhere. BTW, Harrah's boasts a terrific non-smoking WING of its casino, probably 40% of the place!

We stayed in the Golden Nugget, which is very centralized and kinda fun in its own way. Smaller but extremely friendly.

Aquarius is quite nice with its upgrade, btw.

I hope to return there later this year. I have family in Phoenix and its a very reasonable drive up.

Quote: midwestgb

I have family in Phoenix and its a very reasonable drive up.

Do people drive up via US 93 or do they go on the interstates?




A recent article said that 80% of the residents of the area live on the Arizona side of the river .

Quote: nyuhoosier

I am definitely an outlier (still in my 20s). There are a handful of bars/clubs that attract a younger crowd and stay open late.

You are however avoiding the pornslappers, the drunken rowdies, the traffic jams, etc. and you get the cheaper rooms, cheaper movies, etc. So if it suits you to stay away from the City Lights, fine! When Laughlin originally opened it was aimed at the pickup truck rather than limousine crowd. Only a handful of clubs for people your age? Well, how many would you be going to anyway if you were up in Vegas with more to choose from?
I won't be going to Laughlin because my companion thinks Vegas means Shows and Shops and Themed Casinos and would not be happy in Laughlin. Personally, I'd love a two dollar movie (if they still have those there). I'm more the pickup truck crowd anyway, its just that for a vacation she wants bright lights and crowds.

Quote: FleaStiff

Personally, I'd love a two dollar movie (if they still have those there). I'm more the pickup truck crowd anyway, its just that for a vacation she wants bright lights and crowds.

Regency Theaters in Vegas has $3 movies that are a 3 months late. It is about 4 miles from Las Vegas Blvd on Tropicana avenue. Bus route #201 goes down Tropicana Avenue since there is no point in spending $20 for a cab to go to a $3 movie. You ACE/DEUCE pass is also good on the local buses for the time period.

Quote: Wizard

Laughlin is a magnet for elderly gamblers. The operative word there is cheap.

This is the stereotype. It's not really true. It's a magnet for low-rollers. But I would describe the typical Laughlin crowd as being very similar to what you see in downtown LV or in the LV locals casinos. An older crowd than the Palms or the Hard Rock, yes. But not totally elderly.

pacomartin corrected most of Wizard's information. May I also add that the River Palms hasn't been known as Sam's Town, Sam's Town Gold River, or Gold River for more than 10 years. Maybe 15.

Quote: pacomartin

Do people drive up [from Phoenix] via US 93 or do they go on the interstates?

It's an easy drive of 3 to 4 hours, depending on your starting location in Phoenix.

They have been upgrading US93 to multi-lane divided highway since the 1980's. Years ago it was somewhat dangerous but now it's practically like an interstate. Just a few spots of two-lane road remaining.

Before about 1990, there was no bridge across the river. I can remember parking in big lots on the Az side and taking ferry boats across to the casinos. Then Mr. Laughlin built the bridge and donated it to the states.

Yet visitation is down 42% over the last 7 years. Perhaps the improved road makes it easier to simply bypass Laughlin and drive straight to Vegas. That would seem to indicate that when they finish the Hoover Dam bypass that visitation to Laughlin will drop even more.




According to RTC Southern Nevada they want to build a second bridge at Laughlin as well and are projecting growth in the area. Perhaps it won't vanish after all.

Quote: pacomartin

Perhaps the improved road makes it easier to simply bypass Laughlin and drive straight to Vegas.

The road that they've been slowly improving is between Wickenburg and I-40 east of Kingman. This is shown on the map that you posted.

The most direct route from Kingman to Vegas - US 93 between Kingman and Hoover Dam, which does not go to Laughlin - has been 4-lane divided for as long as I can remember. In recent years, except for the early morning, that route always has major delays due to the construction of the new bridge and to general tourist activity at the dam. Opting to go to Vegas through Laughlin instead (Az 68 from Kingman to Bullhead City, crossing the bridge into Nevada and continuing straight ahead to US95) only adds about 25 miles to the total trip. You don't even have to go down the "casino strip" in Laughlin.

Quote: pacomartin

Yet visitation is down 42% over the last 7 years.

When bargains get plentiful in Vegas, maybe the elderly go there instead. Or perhaps its merely the counting that is down 42percent.

Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. I tend to spend a lot of weekends in Laughlin.

Personal observances on the casinos themselves: Harrah's has a great buffet. I've always felt the food there is good. I'm not too picky on food, though, so don't read too much into that.

Riverside has great craps. The dealers are friendly and helpful. However, they shill for tips A LOT. They often get newer players to throw down chips for dealer tips without even mentioning what the chips are for. Not sure how I feel about that. One of the dealers at the Riverside did tell me that they do not hire craps dealers without experience. Thus, I've always found that at the Riverside, as long as you know what you're doing, you'll be ok. Plus, the dealers have seen it all, and I've never seen them make a mistake on a payout, or not know what kind of strange and crazy bet you want to make.

The Golden Nugget, despite having the same name as the casino in downtown Las Vegas, uses a different player card than the one in Las Vegas. I find this annoying. Further, I do not think the craps play there is as enjoyable as the Golden Nugget in Las Vegas.

Those three casinos all have PaiGow with $10 minimum limit tables. They also offer player banking, but you will have to ask for it. It's not something they advertise, and I do believe that most of the "older" players that play the game do not utilize player banking. One interesting difference with PaiGow between Las Vegas and Laughlin, is that it seems in Laughlin you will be playing with mostly older, non-Asian players, while in Las Vegas, the table is more likely to have Asian players. This is changing a lot in Las Vegas, of course, due to the popularity of the game.

Clarification: I'm talking about PaiGow Poker. Never seen PaiGow (Tiles) in Laughlin.

I will say that the people gambling in Laughlin tend toward the older crowd, and/or family-oriented people. I do see lots of kids there hanging out in the arcade. Because of the river, I believe that a lot of people enjoy going up there, hanging out on the river in their boats, jetskis, what-have-you, and then gambling at night. Anyway, I have found that these people tend to be very friendly and talkative. If you enjoy comradeship while you're gambling, this is definitely the place to be.

When it comes to rooms, I'm a very simple person. I just need a comfortable bed. I prefer to have a nice, powerful shower, but you're not going to find that in Laughlin. I have stayed at: Riverside, Harrah's, Tropicana, Aquarius, Colorado Belle, Edgewater. I would say all of the rooms are acceptable. Don't expect any fancy flat-screen televisions, unless you opt for an upgraded room.

I am not impressed with the gambling at River Palms. That casino always appears to be the emptiest as far as clientele. Perhaps because of this, the dealers all seem to have a bored look on their face, and they are not that friendly. I once got asked if I would quit playing craps so that they could close down the table.

That's another thing: unlike Las Vegas, Laughlin tends to die out a little bit after midnight. It's not surprising to find a lot of closed tables after 1am. The Harrah's non-smoking tables close down around 1 or 2 am.

There is a fairly nice sushi restaurant right across from the Golden Nugget. It's in a two-story building on the top floor.

There are not the shows and fancy restaurants that you will find in Las Vegas. While Laughlin makes for a good gambling destination (due to low minimum tables), it's not all that great for seeing a show. On the plus side, it's really only about an hour and a half to Las Vegas. I've stayed in Laughlin, and driven to Vegas for a show, and then back. It's not unreasonable to do. There are some amateur comedy acts in Laughlin that can be enjoyable if you are into that kind of thing. (As a former comic, I am.)

Again, I like Laughlin as a quick destination to get away from Phoenix every other weekend or so. It's cheap to stay there if you end up paying full price, but it is really easy to get free rooms. Also, there are probably only two or three different casino hosts at each of the casinos, so it's really easy to get to know them. If you are friendly to them, they can hook you up with a free room fairly easily. Yes, you have to gamble there. While I don't keep track of how much I gamble, I know I probably gamble enough to equal the cost of a room. Considering that's about $50, you know I'm a low-roller.

Quote: konceptum

I am not impressed with the gambling at River Palms. That casino always appears to be the emptiest as far as clientele. Perhaps because of this, the dealers all seem to have a bored look on their face, and they are not that friendly. I once got asked if I would quit playing craps so that they could close down the table.

I stopped at River Palms recently on the way home from LV, late morning mid-week. The entire pit was closed, and a waitress and a bartender both told me "the pit opens at 3 during the week". Never seen anything like that before. I won't be back.

My usual circuit when I visit starts at the CB and includes the Flamingo/Aquarius, Edgewater, CB, Pioneer, and GN. There is a riverwalk that connects all of these (it might also go to Riverside and River Palms, but I don't usually go to those). For some reason the riverwalk doesn't go to Harrah's.

Laughlin has obviously pursued a different strategy than Vegas. They have kept their room rates stable, while at the same time letting the total number of visitors drop and occupancy rates drop. The average daily room rate is probably the same now as the budget properties in Vegas. There was a big drop in visitation in 2006 when they closed the Flamingo Laughlin for renovations, but the rates keep going down. Visitors are down 42% over the 7 years. Occupancy rates are down 20%.

Of those people that are coming, they seem to be more gamblers. The amount gambled per visitor is much higher in recent years. Like Las Vegas blackjack revenue is plunging in Laughlin as well.

Year	Visitors	ADR	Occup	Rooms	Gaming	Per visitor
2009	2,446,655	$41.24	63.3%	10,652	$492,514,000	$201
2008	2,862,086	$43.51	69.0%	10,655	$570,978,000	$199
2007	3,098,084	$41.92	71.7%	10,696	$630,915,000	$204
2006	3,323,673	$38.63	74.2%	10,660	$629,757,000	$189
2005	3,884,791	$35.98	78.0%	10,737	$621,183,000	$160
2004	4,046,453	$33.14	80.6%	10,743	$595,315,000	$147
2003	4,191,407	$34.30	81.7%	10,817	$553,240,000	$132
2002	4,258,411	$38.08	83.0%	10,817	$551,435,000	$129

Gaming revenue is $126 per room, or $200 per occupied room which is actually pretty healthy compared to north strip. If Circus Circus is making less than half that amount. Which makes me think Circus Circus has a good percent of its occupants either strippers looking for short term lodging, or men who find it convenient place to stay while going to the clubs on Industrial drive. I don't think it is as many families because revenue from the theme park would be higher.

The two Tropicana Entertainment properties (River Palms and Tropicana Express) seem to be the low income properties. In 2009 the two properties had $104 million combined income for all sources of revenue (gaming, rooms, food & drink, etc.). They lost $4.2 million in 2009, whereas they made $4.0 million in 2008. The company has emerged from bankruptcy however.

Golden Nugget and Pioneer are also low income, partly because they are so small.

Harrah's, Riverside and Aquarius each made over $72 million in gaming revenue alone.

Quote: konceptum

I have stayed at: Riverside, Harrah's, Tropicana, Aquarius, Colorado Belle, Edgewater. I would say all of the rooms are acceptable. Don't expect any fancy flat-screen televisions, unless you opt for an upgraded room.

The standard rooms at the Aquarius have flat-screen TVs now. I was very impressed with the decor and the floor-to-ceiling windows.

There happens to be a mock-up of an Aquarius room in the back of the casino near the entrance to the boardwalk.

It occurs to me that the River Palms is a good testbed for my experimental casino. A quick outline of the business plan:

FINANCIAL SET UP
In general Laughlin is very oriented toward slots which return a healthy $131 per day per machine. Gaming revenue in Laughlin is 88.6% slots.

The two casinos owned by Tropicana Express (River Palms and Tropicana Express have combined revenue of $285K per day on average, but they lost about $4m a last year in operating revenue. Using the average slot revenue per machine in Laughlin roughly $244K per day comes from slots. Each hotel has 1000 rooms which probably generate about $5m per year per hotel.

River Palms is relatively isolated on the far end but still a long distance from Harrah's which is totally isolated. It doesn't have as much walk by traffic from the river walk. If the overall Mon-Sun stats are 63% occupancy rate for all of Laughlin, and this is the worst performing casino-hotel in the district, I have to believe their occupancy midweek is close to 30%-40%. Since the corporate reports treat the 2 hotels as a group, you don't know the split, but it looks like the majority of the money comes from Tropicana Express (which was recently renovated). It has more tables, more slots, and a poker pit, and is more centrally located on the strip.

THE CASINO PIT
The River Palms pit only has 16 tables (opens at 3 PM on weekdays).
1 craps,
1 roulette,
9 blackjack,
1 mini-baccarat,
1 Pai Gow Poker,
1 3-Card poker, and
1 Let it Ride.

It has BINGO but and a Leroy's sports book,

Using average numbers for games in Laughlin the daily pit revenue is around $7K. But considering that it is midweek in a hotel that is performing below average I have to figure closer to $4K midweek. The pit is a distant second to the slots.

THE PROPOSAL
The idea would be to tack an optional $50 charge to the room midweek(on top of their normal hotel rates of roughly $35). With a hotel card with this stamp you are entitled to play in the pit. The temporary rules would be:

CRAPS
You would not be permitted to make a proposition bet without a pass line bet. But "Big Red" would pay 5:1, and hardways would pay 9 to 1 , and 10 to 1. Place bets would pay 6:5 or 6:4 or 6:3 just like free odds. Only the pass line bet would retain it's house advantage.

ROULETTE
In roulette the 0 and 00 would be a push. Possibly single number would pay 35:1.

BLACKJACK
A single deck game with most of the restrictions removed so that there may be the possibility of a tiny player advantage given perfect play. Three cards are cut to keep the probabilities as close to zero as possible. Severe restrictions on the max and min to prevent effective card counting. A very slight player advantage would be good for advertising, and would probably be made up in player errors.

MINI-BACCARAT & PAI GOW POKER
I'm not sure about these games yet. I will have to think about it

3-CARD POKER and LET IT RIDE
No changes to the proprietary games. If a player pays the fee and then chooses to play this game it at his loss. As these games are proprietary to Shufflemaster, I don't think you could change the odds.


CUSTOMER SATISFACTION
If customer want they can just get a hotel room for their $35, which would entitle them to play the slots. Using the average return for a slot machine in Laughlin they make over $100K per day in slot play at the River Palms. If people don't want to pay the surcharge, but still want to play pit games they can cross the street and play at the Tropicana Express. It might alienate a small handful of people but it is the cost of trying something new.

BUSINESS POTENTIAL
What would be interesting to see is how many people you could attract from So-Cal, Vegas, and Phoenix that want a chance to play at even odds. You would sell hotel rooms, and you would still capitalize on pass line bets and player mistakes in blackjack. The goal would be to sell 200 passes per night. That would be $10K right there plus the money you make on rooms and on player error and the pass line bets. Also since the rooms would presumably be empty without this idea, you would increase room revenue. Since there are only a 100 seats in the pit, you couldn't sell much more than 200 per day.

I think many people would be attracted to the crowd enthusiasm at playing even odds in a casino. There could be quite a lot of energy built up.

On the weekend the casino would revert back to normal rules.

The core slot revenue would be undisturbed. The pit could go from being mere window dressing for the slots to a vital part of the casino. It might return the hotels to profitability and eventually do a lot more.

BUSINESS RISK
This hotel is basically a slot club and their main clients are older people. You might clash two cultures and upset one or both of them. Since people would be more sensitive to changes in odds in craps and roulette, to subtle changes in blackjack it may work better at the Tropicana Express which has 2 craps tables and 3 roulette tables. Since that hotel is more centrally located it may be more of a shock to change the rules here.

Even at zero HA, some players will still lose. Most people understand that you can still lose a coin toss, but some people may not. Could be a security issue. Possibly a refund of entrance fee for the most severe losers is required.

I am not totally sure what this would do to variance at the casino. Since the pit is a low money earner, there probably is not much variance at present. With a near zero HA, it may have some wild swings.

Some people may object to the requirement to get a room to gamble in the pit. I see it as a safety thing, a way to easily collect the surcharge, and the selling of a mandatory room minimizes the amount you have to charge to sell a "pit pass" and make the idea work. Since a room is required, it also minimizes the possibility that someone will simply hand the pass to a bystander when he is ready to go home for the evening.

It could disrupt the arrangement with Shufflemaster for their proprietary games. Since people are paying a fee to enter the pit, and there is no advantage to the proprietary games, Shufflemaster will lose out on their participation. Maybe this could be remedied by switching these two games with others at the Tropicana Express.

Comps would be a question since there is not the traditional desire for the casino to keep the player in the pit. The bulk of the money would come from the fee. The player who loses money on an a low or non existent HA might still expect comps.

What would be the reaction? It might attract media attention at first, but will players actually drive there several times per year to play at these games. Are there enough geeks?

BUSINESS ALTERNATIVES
Now that the company is out of bankruptcy they are probably going to try and conventionally increase business by promotions and the same old same old. Since the pit does not make much money, one idea would be to eliminate the cost of the pit and move the tables to Tropicana Express. Casinos seem reluctant to do eliminate the pit even if it only attracts a small percentage of the business, as they believe that the pit creates an atmosphere that would be lost if there was just slots and bingo.

Since slots keep going down, and visitation keeps going down for the last 7 years these methods are not likely to work. Massive improvement in infrastructure is unlikely.

Could you get the same participation by having a wheel that periodically raises the payouts for 10 minutes? Would that make people drive to Laughlin, or stay at this hotel over the others. Using the model of the Santa Ana Casino could you simply allow people to make zero house odds field bets in craps and other inducements in blackjack.

Dining consists of a buffet, a nicer restaurant open 5 days a week in the evening, and a coffee shop. There is not much room for cost cutting here.

GOAL
The immediate goal would be to increase revenue by about $16K per day midweek. The extra rooms would bring about half that amount, and the entrance fees should generate $10K ($6K over the present amount), the pass line and the bad play in blackjack would bring in another $2K. That would restore the two hotel operation to break even for the year. If it works then it could be expanded to the Tropicana Express where you would need to attract another 250 people per night (larger pit).

>This hotel is basically a slot club and their main clients are older people.
Precisely. They are not interested in anything but slots, comps and social security checks.
They are not sophisticated gamblers and they are not going to become sophisticated gamblers.
Nor is the casino going to do something to start catering to sophisticated gamblers, the casino caters to people interested in slot machines and social security.

> You might clash two cultures and upset one or both of them.
TWO cultures? One culture is in Laughlin. Where are the sophisticated gamblers? Laughlin?
Do you think that other culture of sophisticated gamblers will trek to Laughlin if they read a press item about a roulette wheel without any green on it? Well, maybe they would, but I doubt it.

If you are going to do a boutique casino wherein the House Edge is converted to a fee-for-access-to-neutral-games, then I think you will need to be close to sophisticated gamblers.

Quote: FleaStiff

Do you think that other culture of sophisticated gamblers will trek to Laughlin if they read a press item about a roulette wheel without any green on it? Well, maybe they would, but I doubt it.

It is a bit of stretch. Maybe the idea would work better in downtown Las Vegas. However, downtown might not take the risk since they depend on walk in traffic.

I partly picked River Palms resort since it is so desperate. Even penny slots are dropping in Laughlin. Penny slots are the one bright star in slot revenue in Vegas.

==============================
But Hooters has dropped to a staggeringly low $50K per day in casino revenue. That is undoubtedly even lower than River Palms. I don't know how much the pit makes. They only have 24 games, (2 craps tables and 2 roulette tables) and 613 slots. The casino was making $32K per day in 2003 when it was the Hotel San Remo. Hooters invested hundreds of millions in acquiring and renovating the place.

Not unexpectedly they are threatening bankruptcy.

With Hooters you have closer to 150 seats in the pit, so you might want to try to bring in 300 people per day. But then you have the possibility of a day session as well as an overnight. Although you don't think of Hooters and sophisticated gambler, we are not trying to attract the baccarat player. Just the kind of geeks that think that they would be willing to part with some money to play craps and roulette without the HA.

At $50K per day with 700 rooms that is only $71 per room per day. You figure that the majority of it is slot revenue. So I can't see how this pay to play idea can't help but improve profitability.

I may repost since this is buried in the Laughlin thread.

IMHO the River Palms is not a good choice for your plan. The River Palms' decline is not just due to the declining gambling economy. It is due in a large part to management sucking money out of the property by cutting staff and ordinary maintenance. The place has become quite shabby: very few tables with dealers, no one serving drinks in the casino, and complaints of room cleanliness and decline of food quality and service. However, in its favor is it has a good selection of penny slots. Also, I have always liked the ambience of the casino; it feels spacious and they have not crammed in the maximum number of tables and machines. They did have a non-smoking slot room, but I think that they removed it.

It will not get walk-in traffic, it is too far up the hill from the GN. The river walk does go there, but it is an isolated area which I certainly would not walk through at night. Therefore, to get gamblers there they have to improve and maintain the hotel and restaurant parts of the property. Otherwise they are doomed.

I think you've convinced me. Someplace like the Hooters would be a better shot. It is surprisingly desperate, but it is nearby to a lot of things so that people don't have to go too far out of their way. It also has two craps tables which I see as being the primary beneficiary of this experiment.

Terrible's Hotel and Casino has 1 craps, 1 roulette, 6 blackjack, and 1 "other" and is only a mile from the strip. They just came out of bankruptcy.

Tropicana (Las Vegas) is another resort that saw it's casino drop from $60m in 2007, to $46m in 2008 to $34m in 2007 while they went into bankruptcy and were bought out. Obviously the new management hopes to return it to previous levels, but it remains to be seen. They have 45 games in their casino.

These hotels with dirty rooms, no service, and no dealers just tells you how much supply there is and no demand. If Laughlin has 4000 empty rooms now on an average day, there simply is too many casinos.

Perhaps I am missing the boat here. Maybe the secret is simply to pull all the games in the casino and replace them with craps games. As blackjack and other games diminish in popularity, the pay for play casino needs to work strictly with the energy that would result from craps players playing at greatly increased odds. Since a good craps table adds so much fun to an evening of gambling the trick is simply to eliminate everything else. People would pay the fee partly just to have the party atmosphere. Plus you would still collect the pass line percentage since people would hardly miss that.

The Tropicana Las Vegas and the Ramada Express Laughlin used to be part of Aztar Corp. Do they still have the same owner or were they sold separately? If the current owner is the same as the now named Tropicana Express and River Palms then it would not be a good selection.

Terrible's is also rundown and is very smokey. But they did recently, a few years ago, build a new tower. I have heard that the bankruptcy was more due to the fiasco in Primm, when they got took by MGM/Mirage in the sale, than the LV property. It might be a good choice since it can be walked from the strip although it is not a short walk. The casino is usually crowded, too crowded for my taste, but they seem to be overly concerned about blackjack players that have not checked their brains at the door. That said, it may be a good choice for you.

Have you considered the Riveria--they will do anything, yes anything, to prevent implosion. Maybe you can sell them on the idea. And I mean for real money.

Quote: pacomartin

Perhaps I am missing the boat here. Maybe the secret is simply to pull all the games in the casino and replace them with craps games. As blackjack and other games diminish in popularity, the pay for play casino needs to work strictly with the energy that would result from craps players playing at greatly increased odds. Since a good craps table adds so much fun to an evening of gambling the trick is simply to eliminate everything else. People would pay the fee partly just to have the party atmosphere. Plus you would still collect the pass line percentage since people would hardly miss that.

I would consider myself a smart craps player, I tend to stay around the 1% edge bets (pass line/odds, placing the 6/8 and buying the 4/10). If they offered what you mentioned before, 6/5 6/4 6/3 in terms of placing... basically free odds... I doubt anyone would continue to play the pass line.

Quote: ahiromu

I would consider myself a smart craps player, I tend to stay around the 1% edge bets (pass line/odds, placing the 6/8 and buying the 4/10). If they offered what you mentioned before, 6/5 6/4 6/3 in terms of placing... basically free odds... I doubt anyone would continue to play the pass line.

You are required to make a minimum pass line bet before you can make the other bets. It's not too onerous a requirement.

Back to Hooters finances. The casino makes $50K per day on average in 2009. They have over 600 slots. Statewide average for a lot machine is $100/day. So you would expect over $60K per day from the slots alone. In addition they have 24 games. So you see the casino is severely under-performing. That's why they are going bankrupt.

If you can sell pit entry tickets to 300 people per day for $50 apiece, and collect the pass line bets as well that should be worth $15K. If the casino gets rocking with screaming and shouting, you could sell more beer and attract more women who would play slots. These 300 people are also required to buy one night in hotel at regular rates which would increase occupancy. (The hotel has 700 rooms).

On the downside you would alienate some people who expect blackjack and to be able to play a game without the entrance fee. That's an acceptable risk since you are trying to create something different.

I am not sure what this would do to variance however. The players are likely to play much longer.

Oh I'm sorry, missed that. Yeah that's fine imo.

ive stayed in lauglin a few times. i usually play at the nugget because once inside it actually feels vegas like.i have had all good dealer and drink experience there. we usually stay at the tropicana and it feels way too family and the train station theme turns me off. they both have 1 and 2 deck 3:2 if i recall corretly

Quote: nyuhoosier

The standard rooms at the Aquarius have flat-screen TVs now. I was very impressed with the decor and the floor-to-ceiling windows.

There happens to be a mock-up of an Aquarius room in the back of the casino near the entrance to the boardwalk.

Yes, you are correct, Aquarius does have flat-screen TVs. Also, the upgraded rooms in Harrah's have flat-screen TVs. On that note, if you book a normal room through their website, when you get to the hotel to check in, ask for an upgraded room. I would say about 7 times out of 10, they have given it to me at no extra charge. When they don't give it, the response is that the rooms are booked. When they've told me that, I've always noticed the hotel to be busier than the other times, so I have no reason to doubt that.

But by my original statement, I simply meant that for the most part, you won't find too many flat-screen TVs in the standard rooms in Laughlin. Personally, of course, I don't really care, since most of my time is spent watching the dice roll. :)

Quote: Melman

I stopped at River Palms recently on the way home from LV, late morning mid-week. The entire pit was closed, and a waitress and a bartender both told me "the pit opens at 3 during the week". Never seen anything like that before. I won't be back.

My usual circuit when I visit starts at the CB and includes the Flamingo/Aquarius, Edgewater, CB, Pioneer, and GN. There is a riverwalk that connects all of these (it might also go to Riverside and River Palms, but I don't usually go to those). For some reason the riverwalk doesn't go to Harrah's.

A small update. Yes, the riverwalk does extend to the River Palms. Where I discovered at about 10 PM this past Thursday night, that the pit was again closed. Just a few pit folks, but no dealers and no players. At another casino, someone said that they heard that the pit "closes" at 10.

I have never been to Laughlin, but just looking at some statistics it seems like slot heaven. Looking at a map, River Palms seems the most geographically isolated place (with the exception of Harrah's which is more like a destination). The pit at River Palms is almost a "loss leader" (much like sports book in most casinos.

The slot revenue per machine per day for ACEP shows just how skewed the numbers can be.
Stratosphere $89
Decatur $130
Boulder $86
Aquarius $141 (Laughlin)

Quote: pacomartin

I have never been to Laughlin, but just looking at some statistics it seems like slot heaven.
Aquarius $141 (Laughlin)

I've not been there for eons but it was always aimed at slot players, busloads of them! I would expect most of those going to Laughlin just sit at slot machines and have no other view of gambling than a slot machine. It may be a low rollers paradise with buses, RVs and pickup trucks but if you get enough people in the door, you can reach high per-slot revenue. The Pioneer in Laughlin had an education page on its website and pushed its non-slot offerings, but the whole town seems to attract slot players primarily.

Total Rewards flights now exist from small airports across America to Laughlin to play at the Harrah's hotel in Laughlin. I see they have 6 $25 machines, and 4 $100 machines as well. Price seems negotiable, but is clearly aimed at high end players.

Just a comment and a question about Laughlin and the riverwalk area, based on my visit the first of this month. With regard to the fact that the riverwalk doesn't extend to the Harrah's property, I think it would just have involved a much greater construction cost per foot than the other areas of the waterfront. There is a bit of a land mass (a butte?) between Harrah's and River Palms. There would either need to be a lot of dirt moved or the walkway constructed out over the water or perhaps have the walkway climb to a much higher elevation, which might not be compatible with handicap access or with leisurely strolling by the lazy (which would apply to me.) My wife and I walked the full round trip of the riverwalk, even though we were staying at Harrah's and didn't have direct access.

Question: did the vacant, paved lot between the River Palms and the Golden Nugget formerly have something constructed on it? Along the riverwalk in that area, the "street" lights are held up by sculptures of very large, slightly grotesque, simian creatures. Those lamp posts seem a bit ornate for an otherwise deserted portion of the river front. I think there was some other ornate construction out in the paved lot, but I didn't get close enough to see what it was.

Quote: Doc

Question: did the vacant, paved lot between the River Palms and the Golden Nugget formerly have something constructed on it? Along the riverwalk in that area, the "street" lights are held up by sculptures of very large, slightly grotesque, simian creatures. Those lamp posts seem a bit ornate for an otherwise deserted portion of the river front. I think there was some other ornate construction out in the paved lot, but I didn't get close enough to see what it was.

Google Earth has access to historical satellite imagery. The lot had nothing on it as far back as 1992. It looks like it was paved over in 2006 and the riverwalk extended to River Palms.

The terrain looks very rough to go to Harrah's with a 100' drop from the southern parking lot of River Palms to the river. I imagine you had to walk on the road for this section.