The best Gambling Message Board?
Quote: MangoJI found Blackjackinfo quite nice, learned there a lot. It's a shame it has already been closed - does somebody know about the circumstances ?
I think Ken just got tired of it. A lot of members went to Blackjacktheforum.
So you like to lurk and soak up free info, eh? I get some good and free info for you to soak up. First you need to apply for a free user ID & a password thru the link below. Thereafter, you get 3 months to absorb all the goodies/free info from Wong's Greenchip Forum. I kid you not.
https://secure.bj21.com/docs/landing/
Quote: ArtemisOn page 28 of Casino Player Magazine of August 2013, Frank Scoblete has highly recommended
1) Shackleford's Wizardofvegas.com
2) Wattenberger's Blackjacktheforum.com, and
3) Wong's Bj21.com.
Frank is a good "politician". He's smart and doesn't want to say which's the best. So let's help out Frank to select the best Gambling Message Board. I say #3 is the best. What say you?
Seems kind of funny to me that you are going to come on THIS site and pose the question, which of the three sites mentioned is best. Lol. You don't think the pool of folks that you are polling, might be biased. :-)
The 3 sites listed, as well as the mentioned 'blackjackinfo' are the basically the four sites that I have participated at. Obviously #2 and #3 are primarily blackjack sites, while WoV is more diversified, as far as gambling, Vegas and.....other. :-)
Let me share the value of the sites from my prospective, as someone who plays blackjack for a living. When you become serious about blackjack play (and that doesn't mean you have to play for a living), you usually begin by reading all the books, all the way back from 'Beat the Dealer', to the 70's and 80's books by the likes of Revere, Wong, Snyder, into the highly valuable 'Blackjack Attack III' by Schlesinger. But even after learning the concepts of those fine books, there is a gap in knowledge needed to successfully play 'today's blackjack games'. There are a few recent books, like Norm Wattenberger's 'Modern Blackjack' and 'Advanced Tactics in casino advantage play' by Abram Alexander which attempt to fill in those gaps, but really the best source of acquiring this information you need to really play today's games is the message boards. Learning from other player's experiences. Now, being that it's the internet, you do have to figure out who is legit and knows what they are talking about and who is just talking. Lol. But that doesn't take long.
Now in my own case, I guess just because of timing, blackjackinfo was that site that really took me to the next level. There is a tremendous amount of info over there, and even though the message boards are now closed, that info is still there, so anyone becoming serious about bj play should spend some time there reading. Norm's site, blackjack the forum, was born days after bjinfo shut down and many of the members migrated there, so in my mind, it was kind of a continuation with improvements.
Now, BJ21, is a little different, as the valuable part is by paid membership. This site's membership is made up of a higher volume of serious professional and semi-professional players. It also contains a lot of valuable info in the achieves, which should be read by any serious bj player. But for me the real value of that site is the contacts that I now network with. You see that site, as all mentioned, including this one include membership from the other side of the tables. As a result there are things that aren't talked about on the public board. Networking and sharing of info with a few trusted, knowledgeable players is paramount. Things like game conditions, heat issues and promotions are best shared privately, although when it comes to promos even your most trusted networking buddies hold out on you. Lol :-)
I will be honest, this site for me doesn't offer a great deal of benefit blackjack wise, but there is some. There also is some worthwhile info pertaining to Vegas and occasionally some mild promo info. But mainly, I just like participating, sharing my experiences and even participating in some of the 'other' discussions. Also, just having access to and interacting with a great mind like the Wizard has value.
Note: for those of you wondering about my omission of Grosjean's works in my list of references, there is a reason for that. Those works go to a whole different level, using some techniques that some of us choose not to use to go to places, we don't want to go. :-)
Could you maybe be just a bit more cryptic? You are not using certain advanced methods you know about and fully understand because?Quote: kewljNote: for those of you wondering about my omission of Grosjean's works in my list of references, there is a reason for that. Those works go to a whole different level, using some techniques that some of us choose not to use to go to places, we don't want to go. :-)
Quote: kewlj
Now, BJ21, is a little different, as the valuable part is by paid membership. This site's membership is made up of a higher volume of serious professional and semi-professional players. It also contains a lot of valuable info in the achieves, which should be read by any serious bj player. But for me the real value of that site is the contacts that I now network with. You see that site, as all mentioned, including this one include membership from the other side of the tables. As a result there are things that aren't talked about on the public board. Networking and sharing of info with a few trusted, knowledgeable players is paramount. Things like game conditions, heat issues and promotions are best shared privately, although when it comes to promos even your most trusted networking buddies hold out on you. Lol :-)
...
Note: for those of you wondering about my omission of Grosjean's works in my list of references, there is a reason for that. Those works go to a whole different level, using some techniques that some of us choose not to use to go to places, we don't want to go. :-)
The bj21 archive information is very valuable, much more so than any book.
The regular discussion is useful if you are the type of meat-and-potatoes AP who likes grinding away at mediocre games in cookie cutter stores, and most of the discussion revolves around the practicalities of getting away with that. Unfortunately, it is very rare these days for a truly interesting discussion to break out.
Regarding Grosjean: the original "Beyond Counting" is essentially a book about hole-carding blackjack and house-banked poker games. Hole-carding is a seventy year-old technique. It is not what I would describe as a different level.
The book contains optimal strategy for rare situations when the dealer exposes a card they shouldn't. No information at all is given on how actually find such opportunities. For the same reasons, no information is given on the frequency of opportunity or the actual real-time hourly earnings which might arise from pursuing such games. The gain from using optimal strategy in hole-card situation helps, but not that much compared to common sense. For example, playing "Mimic the dealer" against a 3CP loader is within a tenth of a % of the expectation of the optimized strategy.
For some reason there is a weird whispering campaign going on which implies that the book contains Da Vinci code-like AP secrets that top level pros are using. It doesn't. Any one who points this out usually gets flamed by Grosjean's very small group of cult-like followers.
Quote: teliotCould you maybe be just a bit more cryptic? You are not using certain advanced methods you know about and fully understand because?
Yeah Kewlj, spell out what you are saying for the guy who sold out his AP friends and took their information straight to the casinos for a crappy consulting fee.
Quote: GBVYeah Kewlj, spell out what you are saying for the guy who sold out his AP friends and took their information straight to the casinos for a crappy consulting fee.
+1
Quote: teliotCould you maybe be just a bit more cryptic? You are not using certain advanced methods you know about and fully understand because?
.......because I am not a 'win at all cost' type of guy. I am not going to hijack the OP's thread to participate in a discussion about Grosjean, nor would I do so with you, in any detail.
Quote: GBVYeah Kewlj, spell out what you are saying for the guy who sold out his AP friends and took their information straight to the casinos for a crappy consulting fee.
I laughed when Eliot pounced on the Grojean comment like a
cat on a bird. You can't fault him for trying,.
It's the mix.
Here there is a mix of advantage players, system players, math geeks, casual players, casino employees, and anyone else who might turn up in a casino (other than homeless people from the boardwalk in AC), all discussing our mutual interest of casino gaming, all of us sharing our experiences and points of view.
Yes, it gets heated, but not nearly as much as it does at most sites where people of such opposite opinions gather. What happens here generally falls into the category that I call "ego correction".
But look at the big picture. As a casual recreational gambler, I can read and post alongside some of the foremost casino mathematicians in the world. I can share information with people who are at the forefront of game design. I can get advice from and learn from people who make a living in places I go to for fun. And I can do this all without feeling overmatched, because my experience as a recreational gambler is respected. When I post a trip report, I get friendly feedback. When I post a big win, I get backslaps, even when it's a slot win. When I ask a math question, or a strategy question, or an etiquette question, I get a square answer. And I notice that this holds true for anyone who doesn't earn disrespect first; here at WoV you don't have to earn respect. Respect is the starting position, and you earn disrespect.
And the information I get here can be trusted. Strategy and math answers are backed up by the arithmetic. Casino questions are answered by people on the inside.
Granted, I skip a lot of stuff. Spending too much time on a gambling forum is kind of like earning a premium Players Club card: it means you're losing too much money. I find out about most of the heated exchanges when the "Suspension List" thread percolates to the top, and then I go and see what happened.
That's about it. People argue and bump against each other and disagree, but they also come back later and get along, on a different topic. It's alive. It sustains.
Quote: MoscaHere's what makes WoV the best, for me:
It's the mix.
Here there is a mix of advantage players, system players, math geeks, casual players, casino employees, and anyone else who might turn up in a casino (other than homeless people from the boardwalk in AC), all discussing our mutual interest of casino gaming, all of us sharing our experiences and points of view.
Yes, it gets heated, but not nearly as much as it does at most sites where people of such opposite opinions gather. What happens here generally falls into the category that I call "ego correction".
But look at the big picture. As a casual recreational gambler, I can read and post alongside some of the foremost casino mathematicians in the world. I can share information with people who are at the forefront of game design. I can get advice from and learn from people who make a living in places I go to for fun. And I can do this all without feeling overmatched, because my experience as a recreational gambler is respected. When I post a trip report, I get friendly feedback. When I post a big win, I get backslaps, even when it's a slot win. When I ask a math question, or a strategy question, or an etiquette question, I get a square answer. And I notice that this holds true for anyone who doesn't earn disrespect first; here at WoV you don't have to earn respect. Respect is the starting position, and you earn disrespect.
And the information I get here can be trusted. Strategy and math answers are backed up by the arithmetic. Casino questions are answered by people on the inside.
Granted, I skip a lot of stuff. Spending too much time on a gambling forum is kind of like earning a premium Players Club card: it means you're losing too much money. I find out about most of the heated exchanges when the "Suspension List" thread percolates to the top, and then I go and see what happened.
That's about it. People argue and bump against each other and disagree, but they also come back later and get along, on a different topic. It's alive. It sustains.
Really well said, Mosca. Exactly my take on this site. The wealth of information if you want to dig down on any particular topic is staggering, with the links, commentary, and examples. And the people are knowledgable and interesting. It's like living in Lake Wobegon....lol.."and all the children are above average".
Quote: MoscaHere's what makes WoV the best, for me:
It's the mix.
Here there is a mix of advantage players, system players, math geeks, casual players, casino employees, and anyone else who might turn up in a casino (other than homeless people from the boardwalk in AC), all discussing our mutual interest of casino gaming, all of us sharing our experiences and points of view.
Yes, it gets heated, but not nearly as much as it does at most sites where people of such opposite opinions gather. What happens here generally falls into the category that I call "ego correction".
But look at the big picture. As a casual recreational gambler, I can read and post alongside some of the foremost casino mathematicians in the world. I can share information with people who are at the forefront of game design. I can get advice from and learn from people who make a living in places I go to for fun. And I can do this all without feeling overmatched, because my experience as a recreational gambler is respected. When I post a trip report, I get friendly feedback. When I post a big win, I get backslaps, even when it's a slot win. When I ask a math question, or a strategy question, or an etiquette question, I get a square answer. And I notice that this holds true for anyone who doesn't earn disrespect first; here at WoV you don't have to earn respect. Respect is the starting position, and you earn disrespect.
And the information I get here can be trusted. Strategy and math answers are backed up by the arithmetic. Casino questions are answered by people on the inside.
Granted, I skip a lot of stuff. Spending too much time on a gambling forum is kind of like earning a premium Players Club card: it means you're losing too much money. I find out about most of the heated exchanges when the "Suspension List" thread percolates to the top, and then I go and see what happened.
That's about it. People argue and bump against each other and disagree, but they also come back later and get along, on a different topic. It's alive. It sustains.
+1
Quote: kewlj.......because I am not a 'win at all cost' type of guy. I am not going to hijack the OP's thread to participate in a discussion about Grosjean, nor would I do so with you, in any detail.
Classy response from a classy guy. Nice.
Quote: MoscaRespect is the starting position, and you earn disrespect.
Excellent post, I'm changing my sig to the line above for the rest of the month.
But, y'know, with the Internet being a global medium, people tend to only look at websites as global (or at least national) in scope. However for Advantage Play purposes there is a decidedly important LOCAL element, insofar as people can greatly benefit from connecting locally with other skilled players.
I believe this really should be especially true and even more important to the serious amateur, part-time NON-PRO player... because full-time travelling pros are already nationally-focused, and even global in some cases. The local-only part-timer is vastly larger in NUMBER, I believe, but everyone still kind of focuses on the full time pro perspective, maybe because that "lifestyle" is more "Hollywood" romantic, or something.
Anyway, this is one of the reasons I started our locally-focused site: I couldn't find ANY other sites serving this need, other than by having a "region" subforum sometimes. But seems to me that deliberately keeping the site membership SMALL and locally-focused, a restricted membership should, I hope, provide added value and "security" compared to the big national sites.
We've been around now for a couple years but actually we're still just getting started, at least as far as real-world casino activity is concerned... so I may be totally wrong on all of this, but... we'll see I guess, LOL.
Just in case -- I've already registered a couple URL's for other regional site names similar to we're using now ;-)
-DBJT
SBR
Wizard of Odds
ACG
2plus2
BJ21
LV Advisor
VPfree
EOG
Advantage Player
TheRX
ViewfromVegas
