All side bets = sucker bets?
August 10th, 2013 at 9:12:34 AM
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i noticed more and more games have a side bet.
ie: Lucky Ladies in BJ, or Firebet in craps, or the bacarat side bets
my theory is that all side bets have a higher house edge than the main game on that table.
else why would the casino waste time/$ confusing the player w/more stuff on the layout?
ie: Lucky Ladies in BJ, or Firebet in craps, or the bacarat side bets
my theory is that all side bets have a higher house edge than the main game on that table.
else why would the casino waste time/$ confusing the player w/more stuff on the layout?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
August 10th, 2013 at 9:40:43 AM
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Making a side bet is like getting an extended warranty on a car. Good for the seller.
50-50-90 Rule: Anytime you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there is a 90% probability you'll get it wrong
August 10th, 2013 at 9:52:14 AM
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Side bets exist to increase the volatility of the main game. With increased volatility comes an increase in pay out odds. The chance of a multi unit payout necessitates a higher house edge to make it worthwhile to the casino to put the bet on the floor.
So yes, the end result is a side bet with a higher house edge than the main game. But there is more to the proposition than just putting out a bet with a higher HE to make more money.....you need the player's to get something for paying the higher toll to play and for most side bets that is the chance to win 10-1, 30-1 or 50-1, depending on the hit rate.
So yes, the end result is a side bet with a higher house edge than the main game. But there is more to the proposition than just putting out a bet with a higher HE to make more money.....you need the player's to get something for paying the higher toll to play and for most side bets that is the chance to win 10-1, 30-1 or 50-1, depending on the hit rate.
August 10th, 2013 at 12:52:52 PM
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Of course they're all sucker bets, thats why the
casino allows them. They've already got you
sucked into the main game, the side bet just
plucks you a little faster. Pluck you like a chicken,
then give you a $20 buffet comp that costs them
about $4. All you'll remember is the comp, thats
the point.
casino allows them. They've already got you
sucked into the main game, the side bet just
plucks you a little faster. Pluck you like a chicken,
then give you a $20 buffet comp that costs them
about $4. All you'll remember is the comp, thats
the point.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 14th, 2013 at 10:29:23 AM
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Unless you're an AP, all gambling is a sucker bet.
August 14th, 2013 at 10:35:07 AM
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Quote: 100xOddswhy would the casino waste time/$ confusing the player w/more stuff on the layout?
To win their money, that's why.
Fighting BS one post at a time!
August 14th, 2013 at 10:47:02 AM
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Quote: 100xOddsi noticed more and more games have a side bet.
ie: Lucky Ladies in BJ, or Firebet in craps, or the bacarat side bets
my theory is that all side bets have a higher house edge than the main game on that table.
else why would the casino waste time/$ confusing the player w/more stuff on the layout?
Some of them are better than the main bet, depending on the paytable. 6/4 pair plus in 3 card poker, 9/7 trips in Ultimate Texas Hold'em, etc.
As to why the house would include them...well, it's amazing how many people will put a nickel on 5 different bets, but would never consider putting a quarter on the main bet.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
August 14th, 2013 at 11:10:19 AM
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1. Consider: All bets are sucker bets. And Gamblers are suckers for gambling in the first place, if you want to look at it like that.
2. Side bets have higher payouts, with the potential for a windfall payout. They are not "flat" (even-money) payout bets. Therefore, they simply have to have higher house edge to account for the greater potential loss.
2. Side bets have higher payouts, with the potential for a windfall payout. They are not "flat" (even-money) payout bets. Therefore, they simply have to have higher house edge to account for the greater potential loss.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 14th, 2013 at 11:49:02 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 14th, 2013 at 12:04:01 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 14th, 2013 at 12:22:17 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesVideo poker disproves that myth.
Most players don't play video poker optimally. Side bets (usually) pay the same for everyone who plays them.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
August 14th, 2013 at 1:11:22 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 14th, 2013 at 1:37:35 PM
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...which is a pretty lousy edge for a table game without big pays, about the edge on some of the lower-paying side bets, and I can't imagine better than the average VP player.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
August 14th, 2013 at 2:09:01 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesVideo poker disproves that myth.
No it doesn't. The overwhelming majority of VP hits are low even money hits, and with poor play; the paytable starts at 1 for 1.
The original paytables of Three Card Poker's bonus bet Pair Plus had such a low house edge with the 4:1 flush payout that the game bombed and was pulled from Atlantic City. The inventor raised the house edge of the Pair Plus bet by reducing the flush payout down to 3:1, and the game took off in Mississippi. The game now has 1,500 installs, and is considered a main stream table game.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 14th, 2013 at 2:33:59 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 14th, 2013 at 2:42:13 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesAnd the overwhelming hands on a table games side bets are LOSERS with a rare 40-1 or so payoff. Don't get me wrong. I don't have any problem with whatever the HE is as I'll never play any of them anyway. My point was that a high HE isn't necessarily needed for the reason you gave.
It is for the casino,
not for the player, and for exactly the reasons I gave. You are a player.
However, the casino decides what the paytables and house edges are.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 14th, 2013 at 4:58:16 PM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 14th, 2013 at 5:41:38 PM
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I do like the $1 minimum sidebets. A buck here and there with a high house edge is no problem for me if I know what the edge is up front. Even better if they are countable :)
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
August 14th, 2013 at 7:22:23 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesVideo poker disproves that myth.
Sort of. People put in way higher volume in VP, meaning that EV and actual results are more likely to converge. Plus, most VP players are placing much smaller bets.
August 14th, 2013 at 7:46:32 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesNo shit!!!! Its needed to rape you faster and faster at the tables, not for the con of entertainment.
This really is an extreme and unbalanced position to take.
The Pair Plus bet or Fortune Bonus bet are not rape, they are simply optional side bets, normal to find in a casino, and entertaining to those who play them.
Play them if you wish; their house edges are appropriate.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 28th, 2014 at 4:56:04 PM
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I sat down and got dealt 2 queen of hearts to the dealer blackjack today. I had no lucky lady bet tho... Because side bets are for suckers :(
April 28th, 2014 at 4:58:32 PM
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They still are. If you had bet on all the other LL hands you'd probably still be down.
April 28th, 2014 at 5:03:53 PM
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Quote: geoffThey still are. If you had bet on all the other LL hands you'd probably still be down.
Lucky Lucky (not lucky ladies) is not too bad of a side bet. The house edge is lower than a lot of "mainstream" games. Really bad blackjack players might even have a higher house edge on the main game than the side bet.
The trips bet in UTH has a high-ish edge, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that 90% (probably more) of players face a higher edge on the main game than the side game (since most people play so terribly).
April 28th, 2014 at 5:20:03 PM
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Quote: Paigowdan1. Consider: All bets are sucker bets. And Gamblers are suckers for gambling in the first place, if you want to look at it like that.
2. Side bets have higher payouts, with the potential for a windfall payout. They are not "flat" (even-money) payout bets. Therefore, they simply have to have higher house edge to account for the greater potential loss.
This coming from a man who created an even money side-bet...
(Not saying I didn't play it, I actually enjoyed it)
April 28th, 2014 at 5:22:13 PM
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Quote: geoffThey still are. If you had bet on all the other LL hands you'd probably still be down.
Yeah. Everyone at the table went absolutely nuts. It's 1000 to 1. I was the only guy not placing the side bet lol. It still stings a bit. It seems like it would be possible to have the side bet be profitable at a certain count? Maybe with a side count of queens? The one here is a bit different from the wizards. It had a couple higher payouts. It was lucky ladies.
April 28th, 2014 at 5:34:05 PM
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Quote: Vlad3TetesYeah. Everyone at the table went absolutely nuts. It's 1000 to 1. I was the only guy not placing the side bet lol. It still stings a bit. It seems like it would be possible to have the side bet be profitable at a certain count? Maybe with a side count of queens? The one here is a bit different from the wizards. It had a couple higher payouts. It was lucky ladies.
You can count lucky ladies pretty easily. It was actually profitable enough when lucky ladies first came out that some people would bet minimum on the actual hand of blackjack without varying the bet and then when the count was right bet a huge amount on just the side bet. That's one of the reasons why most sidebets are capped at $25.
April 29th, 2014 at 6:15:30 AM
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I was dealt 2 Qh's two sessions in a row. Both tables had lucky lady sidebet. Unfortunately, I was spotting and the count wasn't high enough to place the bet.
And no, a side bet with a high payout does not require a high house edge. A side bet's paytable can be reworked to make it only a 0.5% HE, even if there are 50:1 or 100:1 payouts on it.
Side bets have high house edges because they're usually cheap ($1 min for a lot of them), and players have the mentality that "if I get dealt a suited 777 then the dealer pulls a suited 777 [or whatever], I'm going to be so mad I didn't make the bet and win $1 million!!!!", so they make the bet. The side bet drains the player's money slowly in proportion to their total action. It gives the typical degenerate the chance of "almost winning" at the end of every session, "If I only got another queen of hearts that time I got dealt only 1 queen of heart and dealer flipped a BJ....." or "If only I bet $10 when my gut feeling said I should have, I'd have won so much!!" On top of that, it also generates winners from time to time...no one's going to play a side bet if they're constantly being drained money....but if every once in a while they make a big hit, it makes it worth while for them (or if they make a 'big hit' once every 5 sessions). The high variance in the side bets is good for the casinos, because most players will get a few "highs" with a lot of "lows", wanting to come back for more. Those "highs" and "lows" don't come frequently enough (well, highs, at least) in regular main-bet BJ, because for the most part, it's win/lose/win/lose/push/win/lose/lose/push/win/etc.
And no, a side bet with a high payout does not require a high house edge. A side bet's paytable can be reworked to make it only a 0.5% HE, even if there are 50:1 or 100:1 payouts on it.
Side bets have high house edges because they're usually cheap ($1 min for a lot of them), and players have the mentality that "if I get dealt a suited 777 then the dealer pulls a suited 777 [or whatever], I'm going to be so mad I didn't make the bet and win $1 million!!!!", so they make the bet. The side bet drains the player's money slowly in proportion to their total action. It gives the typical degenerate the chance of "almost winning" at the end of every session, "If I only got another queen of hearts that time I got dealt only 1 queen of heart and dealer flipped a BJ....." or "If only I bet $10 when my gut feeling said I should have, I'd have won so much!!" On top of that, it also generates winners from time to time...no one's going to play a side bet if they're constantly being drained money....but if every once in a while they make a big hit, it makes it worth while for them (or if they make a 'big hit' once every 5 sessions). The high variance in the side bets is good for the casinos, because most players will get a few "highs" with a lot of "lows", wanting to come back for more. Those "highs" and "lows" don't come frequently enough (well, highs, at least) in regular main-bet BJ, because for the most part, it's win/lose/win/lose/push/win/lose/lose/push/win/etc.
April 29th, 2014 at 8:24:16 AM
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Quote: Paigowdan
1. Consider: All bets are sucker bets. And Gamblers are suckers for gambling in the first place, if you want to look at it like that.
2. Side bets have higher payouts, with the potential for a windfall payout. They are not "flat" (even-money) payout bets. Therefore, they simply have to have higher house edge to account for the greater potential loss.
Quote: FinsRuleThis coming from a man who created an even money side-bet...
(Not saying I didn't play it, I actually enjoyed it)
Yeah, it's all right. And some low ones, and a high one (Queen's Dragon bet on EZ Pai Gow at 10%+ but pays 50:1).
Actually, most side bets are created with a range of pay tables, and the ones that work best in the field in real play are used after proven. You should see the numbers from new game field trials. So many games have Version II, Version III, etc.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 29th, 2014 at 8:47:44 AM
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In the final analysis it is always the customer that decides which games with which options will be a success.
The customers in a casino are numerous and diverse and often play in groups and of course there is the ever present effects of alcohol.
Sure a game layout will have different versions. What better way to explore the "real" effect rather than the predicted effect on gamblers. Casinos are not static. Their clientele changes, The economy changes, conventions take place, casinos book better acts from time to time, competition opens up.. No Table Games Manager is going to ever view his gamblers as being static rather than ever changing.
Side bets can be viewed as "an extra fling" low in amount, high in payoff... but of course less likely to hit.
Derisively call them sucker bets? Sure. Of course many of the gamblers are suckers or at least enjoy sucker bets.
Does it slow the rate of play and require more instruction to dealers and players? Sure, but Table Hold is what the casino looks at, not just dealer speed.
The customers in a casino are numerous and diverse and often play in groups and of course there is the ever present effects of alcohol.
Sure a game layout will have different versions. What better way to explore the "real" effect rather than the predicted effect on gamblers. Casinos are not static. Their clientele changes, The economy changes, conventions take place, casinos book better acts from time to time, competition opens up.. No Table Games Manager is going to ever view his gamblers as being static rather than ever changing.
Side bets can be viewed as "an extra fling" low in amount, high in payoff... but of course less likely to hit.
Derisively call them sucker bets? Sure. Of course many of the gamblers are suckers or at least enjoy sucker bets.
Does it slow the rate of play and require more instruction to dealers and players? Sure, but Table Hold is what the casino looks at, not just dealer speed.
April 29th, 2014 at 5:49:47 PM
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Quote: 21formeUnless you're an AP, all gambling is a sucker bet.
amen
April 30th, 2014 at 9:04:11 AM
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At a Vegas craps table:
"lemme get a dollar on the Center Bet".
I wonder if he plays Basic Strategy or has even heard of it. Oh for the days when casinos had a separate area set up as "Gambling University" and offered classes.
"lemme get a dollar on the Center Bet".
I wonder if he plays Basic Strategy or has even heard of it. Oh for the days when casinos had a separate area set up as "Gambling University" and offered classes.
May 18th, 2021 at 8:14:19 AM
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Quote: geoffYou can count lucky ladies pretty easily. It was actually profitable enough when lucky ladies first came out that some people would bet minimum on the actual hand of blackjack without varying the bet and then when the count was right bet a huge amount on just the side bet. That's one of the reasons why most sidebets are capped at $25.
How can you count Lucky ladies easily??
May 18th, 2021 at 9:33:57 AM
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Quote: Tweekend52How can you count Lucky ladies easily??
https://www.blackjackapprenticeship.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Lucky-Ladies.pdf
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
May 18th, 2021 at 12:19:17 PM
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https://www.888casino.com/blog/side-bets/card-counting-the-lucky-ladies-blackjack-side-betQuote: Tweekend52How can you count Lucky ladies easily??
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May 19th, 2021 at 6:28:07 AM
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Quote: teliothttps://www.888casino.com/blog/side-bets/card-counting-the-lucky-ladies-blackjack-side-bet
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https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
May 19th, 2021 at 7:25:47 AM
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you are not the first to report 888 access issues.Quote: Mission146I'm sorry about that. I don't know what's going on with my internet settings, but 888 is one of only a few sites that will absolutely not open for me.
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May 19th, 2021 at 10:46:24 AM
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Quote: teliotyou are not the first to report 888 access issues.
It's a shame, too, because I like the way you present the data above most others.
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