Revel promotion sounds too good to be true
Quote: NareedI'm sure it is.
Do you have a point?
We were all hoping you did...
Quote: boymimboClearly, the promotion was to target folks who drive to AC or live in the AC area who are regulars. The fact that they have to come back and use 1/20th of their freeplay every week targets locals. The goal was to get them to switch from whatever AC casino that they were playing at to Revel.
Someone at Revel must have realized that blowback of offerring a $100,000 limit on the rebate and anyone with a calculator could figure the expected value of the player advantage to an AP using their most advantageous games. Casinos are very knowlegeable that APs exist. Nevertheless, they went ahead with the promotion and devised a list of players who would be excluded from the promotion if they showed up. They may have gotten the list from a consultant who has worked at other AC casinos or bought the list from the casinos themselves. I don't have a problem with Revel banning less than 100 known APs from taking advantage of a promotion and they probably have the T&Cs in their promotion to withdraw the promotions from certain players at certain times.
That said, the Revel got way too greedy in this one. A $10,000 limit would have been more appropriate. A $4,000 PA over 20 weeks would have been an acceptable loss for AP and would have dissuaded non-locals from flying in and taking advantage of the promotion. $500 FP every week is certainly doable and when they take into the account travel/food/hotel revenue from the customer it would have been worthwhile to the clients (locals / drive in population) to play.
I completely agree. A $10,000 limit would have been the smart way to go. It would have reduced Revel's liability to local NY/NJ advantage players and completely eliminated Revel's liability to advantage players flying in from Vegas. And since their target audience is slot players anyway, maybe Revel should have made all video poker completely off limits. (After all, table games are already off limits.)
The worst possible thing Revel could do was revoke club memberships after July 1 and refuse to honor their own promotion. And that's exactly what they did! Now they've opened themselves up to lawsuits, terrible public relations, and perhaps punishment by NJ state gambling authorities.
Wizard's Commandment #2: thy shalt honor thy gambling debts.
Quote: thecesspitWe were all hoping you did...
A short, silly joke requires no point.
Apparently, it doesn't gave to be humorous either.Quote: NareedA short, silly joke requires no point.
Also, it costs $13 to drive through the state in tolls, from MD to NY. I will never get over that shit.
Edit: DE to NYC.
Quote: ahiromuAlso, it costs $13 to drive through the state in tolls, from MD to NY. I will never get over that shit.
Edit: DE to NYC.
It costs $13 to cross the George Washington Bridge from NJ into NY!
Quote: 21formeIt costs $13 to cross the George Washington Bridge from NJ into NY!
At least they don't charge both ways but let's not give them any ideas. I know someone who travels between Connecticut and New Jersey who always takes the Tappan Zee Bridge because that toll is only five or six dollars and that's what frugal New Englanders do. I've often wondered if that is a wash because of the extra Parkway tolls and extra fuel. We all know the guy who drives to the next town because gas is a few pennies less.
Quote: 1BBAt least they don't charge both ways but let's not give them any ideas. I know someone who travels between Connecticut and New Jersey who always takes the Tappan Zee Bridge because that toll is only five or six dollars and that's what frugal New Englanders do. I've often wondered if that is a wash because of the extra Parkway tolls and extra fuel. We all know the guy who drives to the next town because gas is a few pennies less.
Who would pay to enter NJ? :-)
I won't say I'm the guy driving to the next town to buy my gas, but I do plan when and where to purchase it. It's significantly cheaper near one casino than it is near others, so I always fill up when I visit that establishment.
Quote: rdw4potusWho would pay to enter NJ? :-)
Anyone from Mexico?
Quote: rdw4potusWho would pay to enter NJ? :-)
I won't say I'm the guy driving to the next town to buy my gas, but I do plan when and where to purchase it. It's significantly cheaper near one casino than it is near others, so I always fill up when I visit that establishment.
Now, now. Poor NJ gets no respect, I tell ya. :-) I also plan my gas purchases when I can. Connecticut gas prices are high but I'm in Massachusetts once a week and some stations have cents off days. Combine that with a supermarket loyalty card and you can get twelve cents per gallon off the already lower prices.
Quote: WizardI didn't mean to overrule you, but I gave both three days before I saw you went with a warning. I suppose I could unban them, but I think three days each is warranted. Then again, I've been in a foul mood lately.
But then why is only one of them showing up as suspended?
Quote: NareedBut then why is only one of them showing up as suspended?
Is Revel management running the suspended list?
Quote: 7star4nowIs Revel management running the suspended list?
Does that qualify as an additional personal insult:-)
Quote: rdw4potusDoes that qualify as an additional personal insult:-)
If so, it qualifies as "insulting the Wizard." That's a mandatory lifetime ban, for life :)
Quote: NareedThat's a mandatory lifetime ban, for life :)
you can probably help with something: "life" is different than "eternity" on the suspension list. Can management lay claim on my eternal soul based on rule breaking, or do I need to first lose a wager?
Quote: rdw4potusDoes that qualify as an additional personal insult:-)
No, I heard the wizard was running a July promo where for every day you get suspended, you get one day back - unless your name appears on his double secret"AP" (Advantage Poster) list
Quote: rdw4potusyou can probably help with something: "life" is different than "eternity" on the suspension list. Can management lay claim on my eternal soul based on rule breaking, or do I need to first lose a wager?
In the abstract it makes no difference, does it?
In practice, a soul is a handy thing to bet when you're short on cash and the other party takes it :P
Revel down 22.6 percent in June:
http://blog.northjersey.com/meadowlandsmatters/6231/breaking-all-12-atlantic-city-casinos-see-reduced-win-total-in-june/
Quote: rdw4potusWho would pay to enter NJ? :-)
I use that line to remember which way I have to pay!
At least they pump your gas for you in Joisy :-)
Quote: rdw4potusWho would pay to enter NJ? :-)
Someone with more money than sense? ;)
More than eight million New Yorkers. And they don't even have to be under evacuation orders. Just a hot sunny day can do it.Quote: rdw4potusWho would pay to enter NJ? :-)
Quote: 1BBAt least they don't charge both ways but let's not give them any ideas. I know someone who travels between Connecticut and New Jersey who always takes the Tappan Zee Bridge because that toll is only five or six dollars and that's what frugal New Englanders do. I've often wondered if that is a wash because of the extra Parkway tolls and extra fuel. We all know the guy who drives to the next town because gas is a few pennies less.
When I traveled between MA and PA frequently, I would go 84 --> 87 --> 287 --> 78 instead of the recommended route (95/GW bridge/etc). The tolls add up to only $2.15 each way, and it takes the same amount of time (if not less) as the NYC route.
Quote: LossRebateDancer says if you play be the rules, you will be fine. Has anyone bothered to find out what the promo rules are? Don't as me to do it. I don't live in NJ and I am through playing the promo.
Quote: camaplAs I said above, I will look into Python. Down the line, I suspect I will have a need for a language that is more efficient with more difficult analyses.
Maybe, maybe not. Personally, I do these sorts of analyses all the time, and I've never felt the need to use a more primitive language for better efficiency. So what if it runs five times slower than C, I'll leave it running five times longer. If that's too long, I'd look at using caching of intermediate results or other algorithm improvements. If that's too long, and I'm in a real rush, I'd parallelize and rent a few hundred Amazon EC2 instances to run it. Only after those steps would I bother rewriting in C for the small constant-factor speedup.
But then, as you might infer, I really hate C :) I know many people use it to great effect, but I personally find it far less productive and more error-prone than more advanced (but less efficient) languages.
You'll find that the runtime issue isn't usually between, say, one hour and five hours. It's between two seconds and five years. :)
Quote:Is the necessary software relatively easy to find and affordable? Also, are there versions that run well in Windows, and do they retain most of their efficiencies?
Windows is fine, it's just personal taste. It will barely affect efficiency at all.
"Hartmann and Fine are expected to come up with something innovative moving forward past July, according to analyst Roger Gros, publisher of Gaming Business Magazine."
http://www.courierpostonline.com/article/20130712/NEWS01/307120018/Revel-s-new-brain-trust-changing-strategy
-Revel spins it's 1st month as a smoking casino:
"ATLANTIC CITY, N.J., July 11, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Today, the New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement released its June 2013 Casino win results. According to their published figures, Revel Casino-Hotel's slot market share increased from 3.7% to 4.3%, a 16% gain, and overall, the property rose from 4.4% to 4.8%, a 9% gain. The 16% increase was the largest in the market, the 9% increase the second-largest. "
They must have given this William Sokolic a free suite and 2 hookers not to mention it.
Piss poor journalism leaving out important facts.
Quote: onenickelmiracleThe article mentioning this threads promo of course doesn't mention 20 weeks.
They must have given this William Sokolic a free suite and 2 hookers not to mention it.
Piss poor journalism leaving out important facts.
My guess is 4 hookers & a suite at the Borgata.
I was at Revel last week & the staff was so clueless I wouldn't stay there if you paid me.
Not worth the hassle.
I have tried to approximate this myself, but as a lazy conventional slot player, I confess my math skills in this area are rusty in this area & pale in comparison to many on this board.
Anybody want to estimate the value of this promo to a slot player, as a worst case scenario, assuming:
1.max play 100k
2.The payout is lowered to the NJ minimum 83%(?)
I thought it would be interesting to look at the worst case scenario (which many of us believe is possible considering it involves Revel)
Tx
Quote: 7star4nowQuestion for the board.
I have tried to approximate this myself, but as a lazy conventional slot player, I confess my math skills in this area are rusty in this area & pale in comparison to many on this board.
Anybody want to estimate the value of this promo to a slot player, as a worst case scenario, assuming:
1.max play 100k
2.The payout is lowered to the NJ minimum 83%(?)
I thought it would be interesting to look at the worst case scenario (which many of us believe is possible considering it involves Revel)
Tx
If you forced yourself to the play freeplay back on the same machine, probably a losing proposition. The Wiz said the value of an 85% machine (with a $80k roll...dunno why he did that) was a little over $11,000, but I think that assumes 100% value from freeplay, which isn't correct. He has never clearly stated how he handled the freeplay from what I have noticed.
Quote: tringlomaneIf you forced yourself to the play freeplay back on the same machine, probably a losing proposition. The Wiz said the value of an 85% machine (with a $80k roll...dunno why he did that) was a little over $11,000, but I think that assumes 100% value from freeplay, which isn't correct. He has never clearly stated how he handled the freeplay from what I have noticed.
I would never bet anyone I could make it to the casino 20 weeks in a row. Calculations don't consider it, but you have to look at missing some portions. Hurricanes, blizzards, sickness, laziness, car accidents, death or even glitches might stop anyone from redeeming these. I think it's foolish to participate and believe the math of part 1 based on the reality of part 2.
Quote: onenickelmiracleI would never bet anyone I could make it to the casino 20 weeks in a row. Calculations don't consider it, but you have to look at missing some portions. Hurricanes, blizzards, sickness, laziness, car accidents, death or even glitches might stop anyone from redeeming these. I think it's foolish to participate and believe the math of part 1 based on the reality of part 2.
I know a guy who lives close enuf & is enuf of a degenerate to have been there done that on the 20 straight week thing (you may be reading his post right now).
Also, if Bob Dancer is correct, the 8 or so hour overnite gap between freeplays allows 10 overnite return visits vs 20 day trips. i could do that in my sleep (and have)>
Quote: tringlomaneIf you forced yourself to the play freeplay back on the same machine, probably a losing proposition. The Wiz said the value of an 85% machine (with a $80k roll...dunno why he did that) was a little over $11,000, but I think that assumes 100% value from freeplay, which isn't correct. He has never clearly stated how he handled the freeplay from what I have noticed.
can someone shoot down this simple minded approach
July - put in 100k cash, expected remaining value 83k (based on min payback)
next 20 wks- put in 100k cash, expected remaining value 83k (based on min payback)
start w/ 100k, finish w/ 166k?
Nobody knows the details for part 2. One person in this thread who seemed to have inside information predicted a 48 hour wait period between redemptions and I think it is the method to the madness. The guys who came up with this promotion it turns out, are not stupid.Quote: 7star4nowI know a guy who lives close enuf & is enuf of a degenerate to have been there done that on the 20 straight week thing (you may be reading his post right now).
Also, if Bob Dancer is correct, the 8 or so hour overnite gap between freeplays allows 10 overnite return visits vs 20 day trips. i could do that in my sleep (and have)>
Quote: onenickelmiracleI would never bet anyone I could make it to the casino 20 weeks in a row. Calculations don't consider it, but you have to look at missing some portions. Hurricanes, blizzards, sickness, laziness, car accidents, death or even glitches might stop anyone from redeeming these. I think it's foolish to participate and believe the math of part 1 based on the reality of part 2.
A huge amount of locals would be succeeding at it if $5000/week is on the line. Hell, go to a casino poker room that isn't on the Vegas Strip, all you will see the same damn men every damn day! And depending on how good of a game you could have done the promo on, forfeiting a week or two would still have been profitable overall.
Quote: onenickelmiracleNobody knows the details for part 2. One person in this thread who seemed to have inside information predicted a 48 hour wait period between redemptions and I think it is the method to the madness. The guys who came up with this promotion it turns out, are not stupid.
Perhaps, but Dancer made a great point on the waiting period. The way Revel avoids losing its shirt on this promo is "breakage" as you mention, high % of players can't return 20wks, + an overnite waiting period between free plays.
So with an overnite waiting period between free plays, you have either a degenerate gambler with cash collected from the previous day's freeplay to give back in those 8 hrs, or a broke degenerate gambler hitting the ATM heavy while waiting for his next freeplay.
These "gap sessions" in between freeplays might be where Revel hopes to profit on this promo.
If they make the gap too long for practicality, say 48 hrs, they may lose the value. We'll see.
Bear in mind that the masses do not have the discipline to optimize a promo as many on this board do.
It's the oldest casino trick in the book, no matter how much money you hand a gambler, you will always get it back , & then some eventually, if you can only get them to return to your casino enuf times.
Quote: 7star4nowI know a guy who lives close enuf & is enuf of a degenerate to have been there done that on the 20 straight week thing (you may be reading his post right now).
Also, if Bob Dancer is correct, the 8 or so hour overnite gap between freeplays allows 10 overnite return visits vs 20 day trips. i could do that in my sleep (and have)>
can someone shoot down this simple minded approach
July - put in 100k cash, expected remaining value 83k (based on min payback)
next 20 wks- put in 100k cash, expected remaining value 83k (based on min payback)
start w/ 100k, finish w/ 166k?
If you win, you don't get to use the freeplay.
Quote: tringlomaneIf you win, you don't get to use the freeplay.
Good point - which proves why a dummy in math like me was asking for help.
I think what I meant to ask was in a probability sense,
if in july , I run 100k thru a machine once & lose 17k, (17%hold)
-so I'm left with 83k in July
then play the 17k freeplay. over 20wks (17%hold)
-leaves me with another 14k
so could I expect to end with like 97k in a probability sense?
10. Trying To Be Who You Aren’t – this is the Las Vegas Strip Casino trying to attract locals (and the Las Vegas locals casino trying to attract Strip customers). It’s the terribly remote tribal casino trying to be a regional entertainment center or a destination resort. It’s the struggling megaresort with a weak stomach for taking big bets, fancying itself as a high roller haven. This is any casino, in a desperate attempt to grab more business, that positions itself as something it can’t possibly be.
From 10 Biggest Casino Marketing Sins by Dennis Conrad
full article here
j/k
Revel: Promises made, promises broken.Quote: Mission146Free Play can be redeemed from 2:43-2:46 a.m., every Wednesday, beginning with the first Wednesday of August.
j/k
Okay... this is a humungous thread. Its time for a "Story So Far" introduction so here goes:
What was the original offer?
What terms made it particularly attractive rather than the usual hot air from casinos?
Did the posts on this thread confirm or deny the factors that contributed to the offer being particularly attractive?
Just how attractive are we talking about? That is, should those who live in AC be walkin' 'round unashamedly sporting &*%$-eatin' grins or should those in Las Vegas be packin' some bags and bringing some cash what to do some serious gambling?
Did the offer get changed by the casino in the interim, perhaps due to this thread?
Is it still a Paint Your Wagon and Come Along offer or be this the usual hokum and pablum mixture from a casino?
Quote: 7star4nowGood point - which proves why a dummy in math like me was asking for help.
I think what I meant to ask was in a probability sense,
if in july , I run 100k thru a machine once & lose 17k, (17%hold)
-so I'm left with 83k in July
then play the 17k freeplay. over 20wks (17%hold)
-leaves me with another 14k
so could I expect to end with like 97k in a probability sense?
It's just not that simple to do the math. And note in that scenario you've given, that's a net loss anyway. To find the precise answer, you just have to simulate the game with various stopping points. But if you played an 83% slot on the initial play, and an 83% slot for the free play. It would end up being a net loss.
But if you allowed yourself to play 97%+ video poker to grind the freeplay back, instead, then you could be slightly positive on the promo, at least for the poorest paying Double Diamond unit legally allow in New Jersey. It happens to be the 85% unit the Wizard analyzed because the one-coin return of that unit is 83.85%. And the next worst version drops below 83%.
(1) 2-credit $100 Double Diamond machine. Edge unknown, but note that there is no bonus for playing the 2nd credit. All the payouts for the 2nd credit are exactly twice as much as the first credit, including the biggest jackpot.
(1) 2-credit $100 Triple Dollars machine, with a bonus for the highest jackpot on the 2nd credit.
(2) 1-credit $100 Wheel of Fortune machines.
Quote: FleaStiff
What was the original offer?
1.) Free Play match from any AC casino, up to $500 per offer, valid on dates on mailer. Must be a physical mailer, one mailer offer, one casino.
2.) Loss rebate up to $100,000 for slots/VP losses, over 20 weeks in the form of Free Play. Basically, $5,000 per week if you lost the 100K.
Quote:What terms made it particularly attractive rather than the usual hot air from casinos?
The machines. This offer originally would have applied to ALL VP games that were there at the time, including the $25 denom machines. With optimal win/oss points, the advantage was huge.
Quote:Did the posts on this thread confirm or deny the factors that contributed to the offer being particularly attractive?
I confirmed it personally.
Quote:Just how attractive are we talking about? That is, should those who live in AC be walkin' 'round unashamedly sporting &*%$-eatin' grins or should those in Las Vegas be packin' some bags and bringing some cash what to do some serious gambling?
Both, depending on who you are. I imagine some of the out-of-towners would have had a more local accomplice to take care of the Free Play. Even factoring costs, though, it'd have probably still been advantageous for someone coming out of Vegas every time, but not nearly as much.
Quote:Did the offer get changed by the casino in the interim, perhaps due to this thread?
They pulled some of the machines, most notably the $25 VP, and backed off some people they suspected were AP's...according to this thread. I can't confirm the back-offs, I can confirm machines were removed/discluded.
Quote:Is it still a Paint Your Wagon and Come Along offer or be this the usual hokum and pablum mixture from a casino?
I don't understand the question.
Quote: kvitlekhAs of early Saturday 7/13 there are the following $100 slots at Revel:....
Yeah, but of those five $100 machines, how many we being used?
Quote: DJTeddyBearYeah, but of those five $100 machines, how many we being used?
If the question is how many people were playing machines at the time i was there the answer is 0. And there are only 4 machines that I know of.
-Revel promotions WILL NOT verify the amount of losses recorded for any player until an official letter is automatically sent to players home address beginning 8/1.
The reason they're giving for this is to prevent "groups" of players from being able to access the info. I imagine the idea is that it hampers groups & forces them to trust each other on the honor system when 1 player tells the others "I lost $X"
-It will be interesting to see the the payback % for high denom slots in July. As reported here, there are very limited $100 machines, some $25's but we tried some -never hit more than a cherry. Hard to do playing $25 & up in our experience.
-If part of the idea of the promo was to pick off high rollers it does not appear to be working. At what would be be peak hours of the year, where we've had trouble getting a machine at Borgata or Harrahs high limit over the past 2 weekends, including July 4th. There were never more than a few players in the Revel high limit & we saw only 1 small handpay over the course of over 3 hrs total. I would have thought this impossible even if Revel turned down its server based machines to 85% for July.
-According to promotions Freeplay week #1 will be available beginning 6am Mon 8/5-Sun 8/11 5:59am.
Freeplay week #2 will be available beginning 6am Mon 8/12.
So, there will be no "gap" between freeplays & one could play freeplay w/ 10 Sunday overnite trips.
We are undecided if we are going to continue with this promo which we are playing legit. The refusal to verify our losses certainly is a red flag. We've certainly been burned before on these things like so many.
But, we represent the dilemma Revel created for itself with the crackdowns & overreactions. We are good legit players & the promo got us in the place , but we get there & the selection of machines has been decimated, there's a dead atmosphere in the high limit & we can't find a machine we can actually play for any reasonable amount of time. If the July payback %'s are as low as I suspect, Revel will have just sandbagged & lose forever lucrative potential customers forever.
Perhaps, the guys who got kicked out day 1 will be the winners & suckers like me will be the real losers
Quote: 7star4nowUpdates on this promo from this weekend:
-Revel promotions WILL NOT verify the amount of losses recorded for any player until an official letter is automatically sent to players home address beginning 8/1.
The reason they're giving for this is to prevent "groups" of players from being able to access the info. I imagine the idea is that it hampers groups & forces them to trust each other on the honor system when 1 player tells the others "I lost $X"
-It will be interesting to see the the payback % for high denom slots in July. As reported here, there are very limited $100 machines, some $25's but we tried some -never hit more than a cherry. Hard to do playing $25 & up in our experience.
-If part of the idea of the promo was to pick off high rollers it does not appear to be working. At what would be be peak hours of the year, where we've had trouble getting a machine at Borgata or Harrahs high limit over the past 2 weekends, including July 4th. There were never more than a few players in the Revel high limit & we saw only 1 small handpay over the course of over 3 hrs total. I would have thought this impossible even if Revel turned down its server based machines to 85% for July.
-According to promotions Freeplay week #1 will be available beginning 6am Mon 8/5-Sun 8/11 5:59am.
Freeplay week #2 will be available beginning 6am Mon 8/12.
So, there will be no "gap" between freeplays & one could play freeplay w/ 10 Sunday overnite trips.
We are undecided if we are going to continue with this promo which we are playing legit. The refusal to verify our losses certainly is a red flag. We've certainly been burned before on these things like so many.
But, we represent the dilemma Revel created for itself with the crackdowns & overreactions. We are good legit players & the promo got us in the place , but we get there & the selection of machines has been decimated, there's a dead atmosphere in the high limit & we can't find a machine we can actually play for any reasonable amount of time. If the July payback %'s are as low as I suspect, Revel will have just sandbagged & lose forever lucrative potential customers forever.
Perhaps, the guys who got kicked out day 1 will be the winners & suckers like me will be the real losers
All was not lost though. I think I had a celebrity sighting in the Ultra Lounge. Anyone want to guess who?
