Pull players card before cashing out when ahead?

I've noticed some people pulling their players card then cashing out.
i didnt think anything of it till recently.

i was playing e-Craps and was on a hot roll.
the guy next to me was hollering everytime a hardways # came. i glanced over and he was betting $25+ on each hardways. and hardways came often during this roll.
when the 7 finally came, he pulled his card then cashed out.

is there an advantage of pulling your card when you have a profit then cashing out?


edit:
now i remember a time many years ago playing VP.
the person next to me would always pull his card before he pressed the button for new cards when he was on a Royal draw.

I doubt it. For example, if the system knows that you're ahead $100, then that info is not going to be lost just because it doesn't "see" a cashout. (Who knows, I could be wrong though)

There used to be a well known bug in VP where if you got a good drawing hand and pulled your card, the win would not be recorded on your account. This made you look like you lost more than you did which was good for comps and your year end win/loss statement.

Whether this bug exists in eCraps is unlikely, but could pulling the card hurt? Doubtful.

I only do it at one casino after loading FP. Someone real chatty with personnel was adamant I should and I think it may work. I'm not sure, but I have either stayed the same or had better offers when I did. Other casinos yank back the FP when you pull the card so I don't do it there of course. I have no idea it doesn't work, but the small chance it might is enough.

I do remember BDancer mentioning pulling cards when the IGT woman was there, but it was quickly ignored and they moved on. I took it as implied to mean play is tracked for up to 5-15 minutes after the card is pulled. I wonder if someone else's card put in would take the sacrifice, but I don't know or if some betting pattern could disable the tracking. I have an idea betting 1 line might do it on some machines for some odd reason.

I have worked on casino player tracking systems on and off for the last 20 years. I don't know of a single system that even keeps track of cashouts. They keep track of two primary meters that are referred to as "coin-in" and "coin-out". Those meters adjust at the conclusion of every game. Many years ago a system could be fooled by taking the card out in the middle of a game and it would only record the meters at the time the card was removed. Now most systems wait until after the current game is finished to send up the final meters.

What could possibly be gained by the player who is so focused on performing the sequence in that manner for any reason?

Did he enjoy the game? Did he enjoy the drinks ... or is he focused on how to skim credits from the casino's computers without having to breathe too much of that extra oxygen they pump in?

If the play doesn't register at all, and you do end up hitting a large award, that won't be reflected in your tracked results. As a result, the host may be more inclined to give you a discretionary comp than if you show the big wins. Of more concern, it was also a way of avoiding having wins show up on the casino's win/loss records for you, thereby allowing the card-puller to fraudulently claim a bigger tax loss and offset any W-2Gs that may have been collected.

I'm not involved in the player tracking systems aspect of any vendor, but it's my understanding that the card-pulling exploits have all been addressed by now.

Quote: DRich

I have worked on casino player tracking systems on and off for the last 20 years. I don't know of a single system that even keeps track of cashouts. They keep track of two primary meters that are referred to as "coin-in" and "coin-out". Those meters adjust at the conclusion of every game. Many years ago a system could be fooled by taking the card out in the middle of a game and it would only record the meters at the time the card was removed. Now most systems wait until after the current game is finished to send up the final meters.

thx. keeping track of coin in and out seems the most logical.

Quote: MathExtremist

If the play doesn't register at all, and you do end up hitting a large award, that won't be reflected in your tracked results. As a result, the host may be more inclined to give you a discretionary comp than if you show the big wins. Of more concern, it was also a way of avoiding having wins show up on the casino's win/loss records for you, thereby allowing the card-puller to fraudulently claim a bigger tax loss and offset any W-2Gs that may have been collected.

I'm not involved in the player tracking systems aspect of any vendor, but it's my understanding that the card-pulling exploits have all been addressed by now.

ah.. good to know about VP.

and i can probably expect my comp offers for july to be lower. i broke even lifetime May with a casino that opened a yr ago.
and this month i'm up $2000 so far.

I was staying at a small casino this weekend that had an old player tracking system. I put about $75k handle in on multi-hand machines. Card pulling works great on those when you are dealt a good paying hand. The casino hosts were fawning all over me and running player cards with extra free play out to me. One host even brought out the President of the casino to meet me because of my "five figure loss". It turned out great because they picked up the suite, all meals, and my wifes spa treatments. What a great weekend and little do they know I was actually up a little bit when I left. Trips like this don't seem to happen to me much anymore.

As Ricky Ricardo used to say: "Splain!"


>I was staying at a small casino this weekend that had an old player tracking system.
How did you recognize it as an old system? They've got a slot for your card. Whats old or new about it?
> I put about $75k handle in on multi-hand machines.
I assume this was Video Poker. But does this mean you added 75grand of your own money or that you recycled winnings to get up to 75k?
> Card pulling works great on those when you are dealt a good paying hand.
So do you withdraw the card prior to winning or at the deal?

deleted

I recognized it as an old system, it is hard to explain other than I have been developing player tracking systems on and off over the last 20 years.

The $75k was "coin in" which counts the money every time you press the spin button.

I was withdrawing the card after the deal on some hands where I expected the return would be $150 or more.

Wonderfully topic to be talking about publicly. It just amazes me sometimes. A simple PM to an AP or someone like Drich would due just fine.

Yes I realize casinos are aware of this. Mainly due to people talking about it publicly. Why must we make sure every last person knows about this. Its true that some older systems may still be prone to this. Why keep this fresh in the memories or spread the word?

Quote: AxelWolf

Wonderfully topic to be talking about publicly. It just amazes me sometimes. A simple PM to an AP or someone like Drich would due just fine.

Yes I realize casinos are aware of this. Mainly due to people talking about it publicly. Why must we make sure every last person knows about this. Its true that some older systems may still be prone to this. Why keep this fresh in the memories or spread the word?

Not all of us are professional AP's and some of us think educating other players on what to look for is a good thing. If my describing this can help more people benefit i am happy to do it. Note: I didn't identify any casinos, just putting it out there because others may benefit from knowing what to look for. Also, very few systems still allow this although a recent release of one of the bigger companies systems has this bug in it and they are aware of it but can't get it fixed until their next release.

Teach me everything you know, but tell no one else!