Dan on High Roller network discussing AP

Let me let this rip:

PaiGowDan politely discusses BOTH the game development process - and the WHOLE AP issue in an interview.

And I actually defended some AP stuff - especially on slots where no coat hanger or light wand was used.

Shoot, you be the judge, - and go at me if you feel need be. It was the High Roller Network who brought this stuff to us, credit to them.
Dan

Dan from Wizard of Vegas on the High Roller Network.

deleted

First of all, this is all about table action, 100%.
Secondly, it is a real olive branch from the (not so) dark side.

Listen and learn. It's not so bad.

Very good interview Dan. I think that you handled the AP questions calmly and effectively - I'm sure you had to bite your tongue a little :-)

Very funny interview, Dan. Really hilarious. A year or
6 months ago, AP was dead according to you. There
were no AP's making a living at it, AP was a joke. Now,
today, you say Oh No, AP's are ruining gambling for
everybody! They're costing Mr and Mrs Joe Blow player,
instead of their stay being $80, its now $120 and all
because of those wascally AP's who you said 6 months
ago weren't a threat to anybody. Now you say the casinos
are so threatened and so paranoid, they scour the AP sites
looking for clues on whats new. A 180 degree turn around
on what you said before you got this new job.

You're such a company man, Dan. You have no opinion
of your own, obviously. Its whatever talking points your
industry puts out this week, thats who you are. Whatever
credibility you had, you certainly blew in this interview.

And the 'partnership' jibberish. I'm a partner with the casino
when I play, to help them make their bottom line so they can
keep offering their 'entertainment'.? I have to strive to be 'lucky'
and not use any kind of advantage, so the casino can get as
much of my money as possible. Do they teach you this stuff or
do you make it up. Hit me in the head with a hammer and tell
me how much I should like it, thats what you're doing.

[....Oh, it's you, Bob.....]

Game protection, as well as AP is never dead, it is always a concern and some component of offering a table game.

It's just dead in the sense that it is no longer a really good career option anymore.

Come to play - yes.

Come to "work" - not so fast.

Quote: Paigowdan

It's just dead in the sense that it is no longer a real good career option anymore.

.

Then WHY are you sooooooo worried about it in
this interview???? Go and listen, Dan. You make
it sound like AP is bringing down casinos and
gambling as we know it. If its so hard to do,
and there are so few doing it as a career, why
even bring it up let alone make such a huge
deal out if it? Why do you think you should get
to have this both ways, Dan? Its a real threat
or it isn't, figure out which side of the street you're on.

Us AP's already know the truth. We scare the living
bejesus out of the industry and they will go to any
length to stop us.

Quote: EvenBob

Then WHY are you sooooooo worried about it in
this interview???? Go and listen, Dan. You make
it sound like AP is bringing down casinos and
gambling as we know it. If its so hard to do,
and there are so few doing it as a career, why
even bring it up let alone make such a huge
deal out if it? Why do you think you should get
to have this both ways, Dan? Its a real threat
or it isn't, figure out which side of the street you're on.

Us AP's already know the truth. We scare the living
bejesus out of the industry and they will go to any
length to stop us.

You're way off, Bob. It is a minor issue that'll finally be resolved. And me and teliot really made a difference, and we are proud.

I'm really comfortable, super comfortable with the way the industry is going forward, the way the industry is waking up, and the way the industry is responding. And Crockford's really and actually helped immensely, greatly.

The whole sense of that interview is that all is good.

Quote: Paigowdan

I'm really comfortable, super comfortable with the way the industry is going forward, the way the industry is waking up, and the way the industry is responding..

Responding to WHAT? Waking up to WHAT? You have said
over and over and over and over that AP is dead, Dan. That
the industry thinks AP its a joke. Do I have to go back and find
recent quotes? Now that you have a real Dark Side job, oh no,
AP is a huge threat! So which is it Dan, is AP dead or is it ruining
gambling for every Mr and Mrs High School President as you state several
times in your interview?

I already know the answer, Dan. Its whatever is convenient for you
to say, thats where you stand. As a dealer it was, yawn, its not a
threat, who cares. Now that you've moved up the ladder, you change
your story to AP is crippling the industry. Now we can see, yawn, its
just Dan, he'll say whatever he's told to say, ignore him.

Too bad they don' t have a podcast. Or even a method of downloading the audio...

Good interview Dan. Thanks for the kind words about my site.

Quote: Paigowdan

It's just dead in the sense that it is no longer a really good career option anymore.

I would differ with you on that. I personally know quite a few people making six-figures annually at advantage play.

deleted

Quote: Wizard

I personally know quite a few people making six-figures annually at advantage play.

And thats the tip of the iceberg. The casino has hounds
to ferret out the fox in the henhouse, when the real
damage is being done across the barnyard right under
their noses. (Notice all the creatures in my analogy. The
casino thinks its the lion, when its really the hyena.)

I enjoyed both meeting with you and listening to your interview, Dan. Great job.

Quote: Paigowdan

You're way off, Bob. It is a minor issue that'll finally be resolved. And me and teliot really made a difference, and we are proud.

I'm really comfortable, super comfortable with the way the industry is going forward, the way the industry is waking up, and the way the industry is responding. And Crockford's really and actually helped immensely, greatly.

The whole sense of that interview is that all is good.

The industry can keep going forward,but they are always 3 steps behind the AP`s. The way it usually works is the casinos implement new procedures designed to prevent something,meanwhile it opens up a new opportunity.The beat goes on.

I enjoyed listtening to this.

Early in the interview you mentioned some games that I never heard of and never saw in casinos... but I have to admit I don't look for them.

Unfortunately Hollywood is not looking for a thousand screenplays each year. A thousand may be written every year, maybe 30 get produced, and maybe 10 really make it to any kind of wide distribution, and the chance for a "new screenplay" making it are slim. Many of the screenplays that "make it" now are revisions of the same tried and true ideas... much like what you said about how new casino games are variations of what already exists.

Quote: Hunterhill

The industry can keep going forward,but they are always 3 steps behind the AP`s. The way it usually works is the casinos implement new procedures designed to prevent something,meanwhile it opens up a new opportunity.The beat goes on.

Yes, this is true. Advantage Players are often very serious, dedicated, and relentless, while casino workers are more of a "regular worker" type. It's a little bit like comparing a Green Beret to someone in the National Guard.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I enjoyed listtening to this.

Early in the interview you mentioned some games that I never heard of and never saw in casinos... but I have to admit I don't look for them.

Early in the interview I mentioned Four Card Poker and Crazy 4 Poker, which are games that, while not supernovas, are very reliable games with hundreds of installs, and a loyal following. For Players who don't play them, these games seem to be invisible. But I believe these two games started SHFL on the road that lead to Ultimate Texas Hold 'em, which is really quite a powerhouse.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Unfortunately Hollywood is not looking for a thousand screenplays each year. A thousand may be written every year, maybe 30 get produced, and maybe 10 really make it to any kind of wide distribution, and the chance for a "new screenplay" making it are slim. Many of the screenplays that "make it" now are revisions of the same tried and true ideas... much like what you said about how new casino games are variations of what already exists.

I was using a comparison, and I felt it made a good point. The public consumes countless new movies each year at a relentless pace, but the number of new table games that get introduced and make it each year are in the single digits.

I do think the number of new films being made each year (including Indy films and foreign films that get completed and noticed) are in the triple digits, certainly more than the number of table games being made, and that the number of screenplays written with the intent of being made each year are in the thousands.

Quote: Wizard

Good interview Dan. Thanks for the kind words about my site.

My pleasure. WizardofOdds.com was/is revolutionary; it really advanced the state of gaming for both the players and the operators.

Quote: Wizard

I would differ with you on that. I personally know quite a few people making six-figures annually at advantage play.

I wasn't particularly talking about an endeavor being lucrative, and it is indeed for at least for some. I was talking about a career.
It's like when a mother discusses and accounts for her children's occupations at a relative's cocktail party:
"Jim...is a Neurologist at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center in New York."
"Beth...is an aviation engineer with General Electric."
"Eileen....is in early childhood education."
"Frank....hole cards Mississippi Stud at West Coast Casinos...."

I was looking at this business at a distance from this business.

Yet all of your examples are probably gambling in the stock market. When this country goes belly up, and it will, what will they have?
That hole carder could also be described as a businessman, extracting wealth from the gaming industry!

Quote: DeMango

That hole carder could also be described as a businessman, extracting wealth from the gaming industry!

There is a lot to it being just "point of view" that is justified. In terms of a hole carder being a businessman, no, I disagree with that, because the hole carder adds no real value for the money extracted. The casino does, by providing a forum for gambling, and for those who enjoy gambling. The hole-carder is not gambling, he's doing something different.
(One can argue that a burglar extracts wealth from the medical profession by virtue of burglarizing a doctor's home, and that is indeed righteous and proper. )

So, the question here is: "What does a hole-carder, edge sorter, or card counter add to the casino, or to the experience of the recreational player at the casino?"
The answer is little, aside from increasing costs for everyone. He's just out to line his pockets, without providing a true service, really.
Do we go to the casino to have fun, or do we seriously believe we can go there to extract wealth.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, this is true. Advantage Players are often very serious, dedicated, and relentless, while casino workers are more of a "regular worker" type. It's a little bit like comparing a Green Beret to someone in the National Guard.

A very little bit. Its more like comparing the motivated kids in school who got scholarships to the kids who smoked pot behind the gym and lifes dream was to make it to tenth grade so they could drop out and get factory jobs. Casino workers are dedicated to looking at their watches and making it to the next break. I,m not joking dan, and you know its true.

Quote: Paigowdan

My pleasure. WizardofOdds.com was/is revolutionary; it really advanced the state of gaming for both the players and the operators.




I wasn't particularly talking about an endeavor being lucrative, and it is indeed for at least for some. I was talking about a career.
It's like when a mother discusses and accounts for her children's occupations at a relative's cocktail party:
"Jim...is a Neurologist at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center in New York."
"Beth...is an aviation engineer with General Electric."
"Eileen....is in early childhood education."
"Frank....hole cards Mississippi Stud at West Coast Casinos...."

I was looking at this business at a distance from this business.

Don`t tell my mom I`m a holecarder, she thinks I`m a piano player in a whorehouse.

I'm not sure, but a similar train of thought could be used to blame the creators of the games for losing money as a result of playing the games.

Basically, the vast majority of people who play games expect and fulfill those expectations to lose money.

On Friday, Kelly and I met up with friends from our high school. This friend was an avid BJ player, and I had to explain that I only played craps and I didn't "know anything" about blackjack. When I assumed she knew more and started asking questions, she had no idea about the difference between 3:2 and 6:5 blackjack.

This difference has nothing to do with AP and everything to do with those who design the games. It took at least one designer to come up with 6:5 blackjack.

Continuous shuffling seems like it could deal with AP. I'm no expert, but pointing fingers at AP as to why people are getting "ripped off" is a pretty biased way to look at the "problem" of people getting ripped off in Vegas.

When people lose their money, they often are fully prepared to lose their money as a result of not caring about the process of it.

They come, they lose, they leave.

The real problem is that we are shifting more towards a customer who wants to be entertained and does not expect to have a financial gain as a result of risking their money. IE: people are just not that smart about gambling, and they just don't care to be either!

It's easy to live here in Vegas and become detached from the reality of how ignorant the average American is about how to get the best deal when gambling!

Most people who don't live here and come and visit real quick are just not that knowledgeable about what they are doing. Slot machines being popular is a just one facet of this observation that I am pointing out here. Not knowing and still enjoying the process of gambling (rather than a positive result at the end) is just sort of how things are right now.

I think in the early days, it was more about the potential to win than the flashing lights and entertainment aspects.

What I took away from this interview is what I always suspected (RECONFIRMED, slaps own hand) , all the way back to the days of AOL and skip's page.The great, Killing the golden goose thread started after a few AP employees loved to blab about good plays openly in great detail. IE: All American VP 103%. The Casino management may be lurking and learning argument against TMI was laughed at (not by me). So next time before posting about some potential AP remember Casino management is learning/watching/reading . Lose lips sink ships.

Quote: Ahigh

I'm not sure, but a similar train of thought could be used to blame the creators of the games for losing money as a result of playing the games.

Basically, the vast majority of people who play games expect and fulfill those expectations to lose money.

On Friday, Kelly and I met up with friends from our high school. This friend was an avid BJ player, and I had to explain that I only played craps and I didn't "know anything" about blackjack. When I assumed she knew more and started asking questions, she had no idea about the difference between 3:2 and 6:5 blackjack.

This difference has nothing to do with AP and everything to do with those who design the games. It took at least one designer to come up with 6:5 blackjack.

The changes in the "base game" of Blackjack: 6:5, H17/S17, DOA - all these things are tinkered with by local casino management. Public domain games are not changed by manufacturers, they are changed by casino operators.

Quote: Ahigh

Continuous shuffling seems like it could deal with AP. I'm no expert, but pointing fingers at AP as to why people are getting "ripped off" is a pretty biased way to look at the "problem" of people getting ripped off in Vegas.

No it isn't. Customers pay for loss prevention, and the cost of doing business goes only up. Granted, businesses can still be greedy, but it is harder to be greedy with aggressive competition. Assuming a business is close to its profit margin, loss prevention costs drive up customer prices (house edges/bad rules/less comps). And yes, a business can run with this condition, but not efficiently.

Quote: Ahigh

When people lose their money, they often are fully prepared to lose their money as a result of not caring about the process of it.

That's a different element here: when people do not care about the process, they're setting themselves up to lose. It is stacking the deck against oneself, as opposed to stacking the deck for oneself.

Quote: Ahigh

The real problem is that we are shifting more towards a customer who wants to be entertained and does not expect to have a financial gain as a result of risking their money. IE: people are just not that smart about gambling, and they just don't care to be either!

If you're saying gamblers are chumps, I'll disagree. They've wisened up a great deal. I don't think they have a 100% expectation of loss, nor a 100% expectation of a win. When they approach a table, it is more of a "let's see what happens. I may win." There is some expectation or potential for a win.

Quote: Ahigh

It's easy to live here in Vegas and become detached from the reality of how ignorant the average American is about how to get the best deal when gambling!

Most people who don't live here and come and visit real quick are just not that knowledgeable about what they are doing. Slot machines being popular is a just one facet of this observation that I am pointing out here. Not knowing and still enjoying the process of gambling (rather than a positive result at the end) is just sort of how things are right now.

For some. I do believe that those who "know that they don't know" how to gamble would go to a show, or play Roulette or reel slots, where where optimal strategy is "press a button for next spin" or "pick a number."

Quote: Ahigh

I think in the early days, it was more about the potential to win than the flashing lights and entertainment aspects.

I think it still is.

I think that many non-gamblers come to Vegas for the non-gambling activities now (conventions, shows, amenities, nightlife), and that many locals are non-gamblers or rare gamblers.

Quote: AxelWolf

What I took away from this interview is what I always suspected (RECONFIRMED, slaps own hand) , all the way back to the days of AOL and skip's page.The great, Killing the golden goose thread started after a few AP employees loved to blab about good plays openly in great detail. IE: All American VP 103%. The Casino management may be lurking and learning argument against TMI was laughed at (not by me). So next time before posting about some potential AP remember Casino management is learning/watching/reading . Lose lips sink ships.

There is a saying in the information age: Information yearns to be free. Even if AP techniques were masked, and they are not fully, you would still only have a window of opportunity, that the golden goose has a life expectancy.

Dan, During the 90's every month something new came along worth a minimum of a easy 10k that's not including the normal day to day AP, Banking, progressives, Bounce back, drawings, etc. Why do you think such a big decline?
I Blame the following for the decline in AP from 1988-2004
1) the internet: starting with Skip Hughes page I think it morphed into vpFREE
2)Double Agents,defectors, consultants
3) big corporations buying up multiple casinos and learning from mistakes
4) some Advantage players themselves doing dumb things IE: creating attention to everything things like playing 2 VP machines @ once, Reading books during AP, to cheap for cover play or tipping.

Quote: AxelWolf

Dan, During the 90's every month something new came along worth a minimum of a easy 10k that's not including the normal day to day AP, Banking, progressives, Bounce back, drawings, etc. Why do you think such a big decline?

In a word, evolution. Casinos, and their management, evolve. As stated, casinos may not be as fast and as strong as dedicated AP players or teams, but progress is being made. It is all simply an adapt or die process. Big openings (and losses) cannot be sustained, and small opening and losses get closed up, cleaned up, if for efficiencies alone. And it is actually the old-school manager who felt that a little hole-carding, a little counting down, a little edge sorting is okay, and is going to happen in a "what can ya do" sense, - when not caught and back-roomed. (Big losses caused a visit to the desert in the old days.)
A lot of the game protection focus is now moving away from reactive measures (surveillance, back-offs, flat-betting), which are expensive, poor for public relations, and are an after-the-fact, or an "after-being-hit" reaction. Indeed, the usage of "surveillance plus back offs" as a solution openly indicate that you have a problem, a highly fraud-able game or bad game parameters.

Quote: AxelWolf

I Blame the following for the decline in AP from 1988-2004
1) the internet: starting with Skip Hughes page I think it morphed into vpFREE

The Internet has information for "any and all sides."

Quote: AxelWolf

2)Double Agents,defectors, consultants

Yup. Even the language smacks of espionage: Double Agents, defectors....some on the other side might call defectors "reformed players."

Quote: AxelWolf

3) big corporations buying up multiple casinos and learning from mistakes

Agree. When a casino operator has a formal department for table games policies and protections, it gets results. Plus, an operator consisting of many casinos will have the resources for this effort, whereas a stand-alone private casino might not.

Quote: AxelWolf

4) some Advantage players themselves doing dumb things IE: creating attention to everything things like playing 2 VP machines @ once, Reading books during AP, to cheap for cover play or tipping.

People give themselves away.

Quote: Paigowdan

My pleasure. WizardofOdds.com was/is revolutionary; it really advanced the state of gaming for both the players and the operators.




I wasn't particularly talking about an endeavor being lucrative, and it is indeed for at least for some. I was talking about a career.
It's like when a mother discusses and accounts for her children's occupations at a relative's cocktail party:
"Jim...is a Neurologist at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center in New York."
"Beth...is an aviation engineer with General Electric."
"Eileen....is in early childhood education."
"Frank....hole cards Mississippi Stud at West Coast Casinos...."

I was looking at this business at a distance from this business.

Who cares what your mom says at a cocktail party? Most people don't care, unless you've got weird guilt issues.