FrankScoblete
FrankScoblete
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April 8th, 2013 at 3:13:12 PM permalink
(Wizard, I am posting this in two place to get --- what I consider -- maximum audience. I hope you don't mind.)

I have been reading a lot of message boards lately because I am doing a chapter for my new book about such boards. I am going to rate them and give my opinion about the boards, including the specific posters on such boards obviously. In the past, on occasion, I have visited certain boards but the visits have not been prolonged. I once even made the mistake of posting somewhere under an assumed name. (Bless me father for I have sinned!) But that idiocy and those days of reading are long ago.

Still, if I visited a message board – other than my own – it might have been once every two or three months; just read, shake my head at times, and leave. Not give the stuff much thought. Some of the boards were dull; some were hijacked by a few posters who dominated them.

Here is what gets to me with message boards – the sarcasm. When folks disagree with one another, many (if not most) of the discussions descend into sarcasm (I’ll include nasty remarks in that genre of commentary). It is very much like “your mommy is fat” and “no, you daddy can’t walk up a flight of stairs because of his oxygen tank.”

Sarcasm does not work on the person you are disagreeing with or with whom you are discussing something. Once a writer becomes sarcastic the tendency is for the other writer to return the sarcasm – in short, being hoisted “with one’s own petard.” There are some really good message boards on the web, this being one of them, but sarcasm reigns supreme at times.

It gets the discussion, it gets the ideas, nowhere; it only gets the “discussees” to get into the trenches to fight World War I all over again.

Once that happens it is over. Here’s why:

Sarcasm works for the people who already agree with you. You say something sarcastic (or cutting, or nasty, or choose whatever word you like) about a poster and your comrades rejoice that you put that moron in his place. “Great,” they say, “you showed him what a moron he is!” Your comrades also think you have won over the multitude with your scathing words (“Everyone has to now know so-and-so is an idiot after I said this; not just the people who already think he is an idiot!”)

You have gotten the votes of those who would have voted for you even if you didn’t use sarcasm to push your point forward. That is the politics of personal discussion. Those who agree with you enjoy, revel in, are consumed with the hammering of the “opponent” with your wit, your razor intellect, your knowledge of the subject even if you have little knowledge of the subject (note the sarcasm there).

Unfortunately, sarcasm does not work for those you are trying to get to see your point of view. Such sarcasm is not going to change someone’s opinion of what you are putting forth as your opinion of a matter. They are turned off. They are now looking to retaliate with their own verbal bombs against you.

My view is quite simple and is based on a quarter of a century of seeing things in print about me. If sarcasm is being used as the fundamental method of criticism, who cares? Some jerk just criticized me today and spelled my name wrong ( a guy who wouldn’t even let me on his web site)! The “sarcastocists” aren’t looking for me to change their minds or emotions on a given topic. They are merely interested in having their cohorts exclaim, “You did that jerk in!” A round of pats on the back is then called for (note the sarcasm).

I think people can have disagreements; one of my best friends is politically so left wing that she could belong to the politburo and we have wagered “war” over our ideas for over 40 years (she is a columnist for the Washington Times). So what? I love her and so does my wife. However, we are always respectful when we launch into the political arena, which we do often. I let her say her say (she is mostly wrong) and she lets me say my say (she thinks I am mostly wrong). Then we toast and enjoy a good dinner.

The sarcasm doesn’t convince your opponents that you are right. In a sense it does only this: This particular discussion is now closed as we insult one another.

One last thing; once you put something in writing it is the “10 Commandments.” It is close to impossible to erase. I remember someone wrote a book review of one of my books (I forget which, it was in the mid 1990s) and he focused on one sentence. One stinking sentence! An entire 700 word negative review on one sentence.

I saved the review for a few years and every once in awhile I would go back to it and read it. I got enraged! How dare this man…wait a minute, this guy wrote the review “X” number of years ago; why are you still getting riled over it? I tossed it and (other than at this moment) haven’t really thought of it since.

That holds true for message boards too. If someone really lays into you, you aren’t going to even want to read what the person has to say or, when you read it, you want to kill their pets. For me, I just ignore the poster; a review of one sentence has taught me a lot. You read a negative, nasty poster, you should just move on. Nothing you can say; no negative response has any meaning to this individual. Move on.

So, what advice do I have? Just state your case, be polite and realize that not everyone is going to agree with you – even if you are right, which (as my wife says) I think I am all the time.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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April 8th, 2013 at 3:23:51 PM permalink
On moderated boards, sarcasm is something you have to
live with. When I started on the net in 1992, there was only
Usenet and newsgroups. They were mostly unmoderated
and it was really bad. You could say the most vile things
imaginable about somebody's mother, and people did.

You can't do that if there's a mod, so instead we use sarcasm.
In a perfect world we would state our case and be polite,
but this world is so far from perfect its laughable.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
treetopbuddy
treetopbuddy
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April 8th, 2013 at 3:30:43 PM permalink
take away the sarcasm and it's crickets
Each day is better than the next
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
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April 8th, 2013 at 3:37:39 PM permalink
Quote: FrankScoblete

(Wizard, I am posting this in two place to get --- what I consider -- maximum audience. I hope you don't mind.)



I do mind and I busted the other one. Please review the forum rules, especially rule number 5.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Boz
Boz
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April 8th, 2013 at 3:41:53 PM permalink
Ok I have to say it. Who made you the person to advise people on how to post? If someone crosses the line it is handled quickly and fairly by The Wizard or a Mod. I personally enjoy this forum for multiple reasons including the banter back and forth between a group of intelligent individuals. The majority of posters on here add information helpful to others. Even ones I disagree with have the right to express their opinions and then see how it goes over. The sarcasm makes it interesting and again, if it crosses the line, is handled.

But this is just my opinion, something that is welcome here as far as I can see. But hey, I have never sold one book, so maybe I am not qualified to comment (sarcasm intended).
MakingBook
MakingBook
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April 8th, 2013 at 3:52:42 PM permalink
Often sarcasm is necessary. Anybody that spews nonsense about dice control is due a fair amount of sarcasm.

Indeed, some forum members are complete morons and believe that you can toss a pair of dice several feet, have them bounce off the felt, carom off a wall made of diamonds, return to the felt, roll, and come to rest, while controlling the result? Are you freaking kidding me?

Frank, you are a intelligent guy, and a talented writer. This is why you chose to write books about dice control and sell seminars to gullible idiots. You'll never admit it, but I'll bet you know dice control is as real as the tooth fairy.
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
FrankScoblete
FrankScoblete
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April 8th, 2013 at 3:56:43 PM permalink
Sorry Wizard. Yes, I was just giving my opinion.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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April 8th, 2013 at 4:12:50 PM permalink
Quote: MakingBook

Often sarcasm is necessary. Anybody that spews nonsense about dice control is due a fair amount of sarcasm.

Indeed, some forum members are complete morons and believe that you can toss a pair of dice several feet, have them bounce off the felt, carom off a wall made of diamonds, return to the felt, roll, and come to rest, while controlling the result? Are you freaking kidding me?

Frank, you are a intelligent guy, and a talented writer. This is why you chose to write books about dice control and sell seminars to gullible idiots. You'll never admit it, but I'll bet you know dice control is as real as the tooth fairy.



These comments demonstrate you believe you have an ability to be able to identify a lack of a signal when it is visually observed.

Could you look at an encrypted UU-encoded message and tell if there was no content inside there too?

There's an analogy there. The truth is that I think you are inferring far too much from a random throw and projecting it onto each and every dice throw and resulting resolution.

I'll further suggest that you are not as knowledgeable about this subject as Frank is, and that's not sarcasm you put in there, that's straight up mockery.
aahigh.com
RonC
RonC
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April 8th, 2013 at 4:39:50 PM permalink
Quote: MakingBook

some forum members are complete morons



What is wrong with an intelligent discussion about dice control/influence without calling anyone a moron? Indeed, you get away with this "generalized" moron comment--"some people"--but you couldn't call those individuals you characterize as morons such without facing suspension.

I'm not a believer in DC/DI, but I don't mind reading about it and, darn, I can ignore posts and threads I don't want to read. So say it is a sham and then move along. Why call anyone names?
MrV
MrV
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April 8th, 2013 at 5:52:17 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

I'm not a believer in DC/DI, but I don't mind reading about it and, darn, I can ignore posts and threads I don't want to read. So say it is a sham and then move along. Why call anyone names?



Because the foregone conclusion to this dice influencing movement is that some day we'll be throwing the dice out of a cup.

Not because it works, but because so many players claim it works.

And who could blame the casinos?

If a guy says he's coming to my house tonight to rob me, you better believe I'll be there waiting for him, gun in hand.
"What, me worry?"
boymimbo
boymimbo
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April 8th, 2013 at 7:00:05 PM permalink
It's well said by Frank, but at the same time, the Wizard and his group of mods have done a decent job of allowing free speech with a sense of modicum.

Frank, if I just came out and called you an ass***e, I'd be banned from this forum for a week I am guessing, maybe longer.

The debate between Ahigh and everyone else is spirited, and right now, this forum is abuzz with dice control and has been for a while. It's a worthwhile discussion to me because there is a great divide between those who believe dice throws are random to those who believe (and practice) that they are not.

There is quite a bit of sarcasm, and some of it is tough to read, but in it all are worthwhile nuggets.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Mosca
Mosca
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April 8th, 2013 at 7:18:33 PM permalink
Folks here are my internet friends.

To that end, even when they disagree with me sarcastically, I appreciate their sarcasm (if it is skillfully employed), and accept that the humor in it is at my expense. If that means that sometimes I have to temper my response, oh well. IMO these relationships are worth preserving, so that when I eventually meet folks in the flesh I will be exactly who I appeared to be in my words.

Frank, if you participate in forums you should read Clay Shirky's essential work on internet communities, "A Group Is It's Own Worst Enemy". Read and your questions will be answered.
A falling knife has no handle.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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April 8th, 2013 at 7:30:46 PM permalink
I remember once hearing that "satire is the lowest form of comedy," and there are dozens of items on the Internet about sarcasm being the lowest form of wit.

The one web citation which impressed me the most was that sarcasm is used too often to hurt someone but does not offer help discuss an idea.

I think we can do better in discussions than use sarcasm.
rxwine
rxwine
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April 8th, 2013 at 8:16:34 PM permalink
The Science of Sarcasm

I don't agree with anything in the above article. I don't even agree it was written.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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April 8th, 2013 at 10:23:32 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Because the foregone conclusion to this dice influencing movement is that some day we'll be throwing the dice out of a cup.

Not because it works, but because so many players claim it works.

And who could blame the casinos?

If a guy says he's coming to my house tonight to rob me, you better believe I'll be there waiting for him, gun in hand.



The casinos only care about the bottom line and craps revenue in the state of Nevada has been very nearly completely flat for the last four years. The win amount has been 380M to 440M and the win percentage has been 11% to 14% for years and years and years.

If they were going to change any rules based on advantage play, it would be on blackjack not on craps. Blackjack holds a much lower percentage and it represents a much larger pie slice of the total gaming revenue for the state.

Blackjack would be much more fair to the average player if they used computer generated random numbers instead of card decks. And the advantage from using counts on decks is very well documented, and that hasn't changed. But proven AP on BJ is central to the allure of the game, and the game became MORE popular when advantage play became well known. NOT less popular. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. If I'm wrong, show me the evidence!

So using blackjack as a barometer, your comment that it's a foregone conclusion is, in my opinion, based on fantasy of you or someone else who told this to you. Quite possibly just a myth! I see absolutely no basis in reality for this comment.

It would be very easy to make a craps game where you had to shoot out of a cup and see what happens to the revenue.

The Silverton had a policy like this for about a week (dice setting disallowed). I assume revenue dropped quickly because the policy changed back quickly.

If there were a little more respect from those intellectuals who use statistics, counting, and math alone to AP play instead of also having to use motor memory and hand-to-eye coordination, I think the whole forum would be a lot better off.

AP craps play, even if it is proven to be possible, is simply harder than any other AP gambling in the casino. If it weren't harder to do, we wouldn't be having the debate of whether or not it were even possible.

In that context, the possibility for advantage play craps being possible in the casino only has the potential to enable craps to earn even more money in the long run, not less. The worst possible thing that might happen would be that certain shooters might start getting profiled just like card counters.

Currently, it's my opinion that this generally doesn't happen. Maybe a few exceptions, but I think they are very few.

Even the very best shooters in the world are still welcome at certain casinos. California Club is such a casino I couldn't imagine ANYONE getting turned away!
aahigh.com
EvenBob
EvenBob
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April 16th, 2013 at 7:19:12 AM permalink
Where the heck did Frank go? He posted up a storm, started multiple
threads in the 12 days he was active, then POOF, disappeared more
than a week ago. I enjoyed his posts, was it something we said that
offended him? I've been watching for him to post again, he checks
the forum almost every day. What up Frank?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
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