Newbie questions (craps)

Greetings experts! Long time listener, first time caller here.

First off, I'm no stranger to odds and math (PhD in engineering, working in the technical computing software industry), but I am a stranger to most table games. I used to play VP and some slots (local in PA), and tried my hand at a roulette system I thought up (based on repeated numbers) in Reno a couple years ago. Luckily I was smart enough to quit before I ate through all my bankroll. I still think my system has some merit - but I got swept up in the fast pace at $1 wheels. I've done OK at blackjack, but the volatility is too low to keep my interest. Bet $5, win $5, lose $5, it's a little boring - ooh, a squirrel just ran by my window!

Anyway, I'll be in Vegas next month for a conference and want to try my hand at craps. I've learned a lot about this game now and plan on playing a $5 table conservatively. $5 passline and then single odds, with place bets on 6 and 8. Having about $20 on the table at once is within my comfort level and bankroll for the week. Of course, I'm staying at the Bellagio, so may have to go elsewhere to find a $5 table. Although once I get a good feel for the game, $10 tables aren't out of the question, but may drop the place bets there.


On to my questions (please forgive/correct me if I get the lingo wrong!):

(1) when you change say $200 in cash, they'll usually give you a few green chips. At no point will I be betting these at a $5 table, so what's the best way to get change? I'm assuming I can just send over a green, telling the dealer to place 6 and 8 for $6 each and get my change back. This doesn't appear too disruptive.

(2) is it typical to place 6/8 when the point is 6/8? In most of the strategies I've read, they're mostly based on getting the most chips in play. So when the point is 6 or 8, they'll slide those place bets over to 5/9 or on the field. I don't like the odds as much on those other bets, but am afraid of looking like a moron being the only one "double-covering" a 6 or 8.

(3) I'm also kind of drawn to 3 card poker. I like the volatility on the pair+ bet and would play this conservatively too ($10 ante, $5 pair+). Am I an idiot for trying this out and should just stick to craps?

(4) given that this is probably the only time I'll be in Vegas over the next year or so, should I bother signing up for a players card? I've got several - Foxwoods, local slot places, 2 from Reno, etc. but don't get out enough to make them very worthwhile. They'll send coupons for a couple months, and then I never hear from them again. Especially playing at a $5 table for relatively short times (I am at a conference after all!), it seems that it would be more trouble that it's worth.


Thanks!

[and yes, I do see the irony saying I understand odds and then playing roulette anyway]

Quote: edst

(1) when you change say $200 in cash, they'll usually give you a few green chips. At no point will I be betting these at a $5 table, so what's the best way to get change? I'm assuming I can just send over a green, telling the dealer to place 6 and 8 for $6 each and get my change back. This doesn't appear too disruptive.

(2) is it typical to place 6/8 when the point is 6/8? In most of the strategies I've read, they're mostly based on getting the most chips in play. So when the point is 6 or 8, they'll slide those place bets over to 5/9 or on the field. I don't like the odds as much on those other bets, but am afraid of looking like a moron being the only one "double-covering" a 6 or 8.

(3) I'm also kind of drawn to 3 card poker. I like the volatility on the pair+ bet and would play this conservatively too ($10 ante, $5 pair+). Am I an idiot for trying this out and should just stick to craps?

(4) given that this is probably the only time I'll be in Vegas over the next year or so, should I bother signing up for a players card? I've got several - Foxwoods, local slot places, 2 from Reno, etc. but don't get out enough to make them very worthwhile. They'll send coupons for a couple months, and then I never hear from them again. Especially playing at a $5 table for relatively short times (I am at a conference after all!), it seems that it would be more trouble that it's worth.


Thanks!

[and yes, I do see the irony saying I understand odds and then playing roulette anyway]

1- you don't have to give exact change. Just say, 6 dollar 6 and 8. They'll know you expect the change back. it isn't at all disruptive. It's their job and they expect to do it. Also, feel free to drop the green and say "Can I get reds please?" or the same if you need $1 for tips.
2- When they say "what do you want to do with your 6 (or 8)" just say "take it down" and they'll give it back to you. Better to put it on the odds for the point to max before "double covering".
3- whatever makes you happy...you aren't an idiot for that betting strategy...gambling is about having fun. I play 3CP every once and a while to mix it up.
4- it can't ever "hurt" you to sign up at that level.

Quote: edst

Greetings experts! Long time listener, first time caller here.
(1) when you change say $200 in cash, they'll usually give you a few green chips. At no point will I be betting these at a $5 table, so what's the best way to get change? I'm assuming I can just send over a green, telling the dealer to place 6 and 8 for $6 each and get my change back. This doesn't appear too disruptive.

That is one way to do it. The dealers will usually keep you in the right quantity of chips. You can always ask for change at any time too, but try and do it between shooters if possible.
The rule I go by is, if I can complete any sort of transaction before other players are done, I will go for it. I don't ever want to be the last transaction that is preventing the dice from being sent to the shooter.

Quote:

(2) is it typical to place 6/8 when the point is 6/8? In most of the strategies I've read, they're mostly based on getting the most chips in play. So when the point is 6 or 8, they'll slide those place bets over to 5/9 or on the field. I don't like the odds as much on those other bets, but am afraid of looking like a moron being the only one "double-covering" a 6 or 8.

If the point is a 6 or 8, take down your place bet and put it behind your PL bet for odds. It pays you better. If you are maxing out your odds, then you could make the Place bet, and while it is a bit unconventional, it does not make you look dumb.

I am almost certain you will not find a $5 craps game at Bellagio

1. When you toss in your money (hopefully during a break in the action), call your bet. If I come in mid-point or mid-roll (which I do when there is a break in the action or I am on the same side of the table as the shooter), I toss in the money and call my bet ($12 six/eight). They'll quickly sweep the money and hand the dice. This avoids you having to wait for the chips and making a bet.

2. If you are mid roll, it is better to place the point than to put a pass line down with odds (unless you are betting more than 5x odds.

3. Three Card Poker is a fair game with a HA for the ante in the 3.37% range (with optimal strategy of raising on Q-6-4 or higher and folding otherwise) and the HA for the pairs plus in the 2.3 - 7.3% range. Look for a "Full Pay" Pairs Plus table where the Flush Pays 4 and the Straight pays 6. If the Flush only pays 3:1, you give up 5% HA. If the straight only pays 5, you give up 3.25% extra. If you can't find full pay, then don't play the Pairs Plus portion. Try Four-Card too (3.4% for the Ante, 3.8% for Aces Up). It's a similar game, plays slower, the house advantage is similar, and I think it's a lot more fun.

4. Always sign up for a new player's card as you will likely get a slot promotion with the card that will give you some short term advantage play. At least you will get promotional material from the casino offering you better than published rates on rooms (especially Harrahs' Total Rewards).

The closest $5 craps game to the Bellagio would be across the street at the Paris in the daytime hours or kitty corner at Bills (where you can play RapidCraps and not have to worry about throwing in money at all).

Quote: edst

Greetings experts! Long time listener, first time caller here.

Welcome aboard.

Quote: edst

...it's a little boring - ooh, a squirrel just ran by my window!

Now THAT'S funny!




I often play craps and often put down just 6/8 place bets. That can get boring too, but even as a spectator, craps is an exciting game. You can't say that about BJ. (The BJ card game anyway.)


To answer your concerns:

First off, if you're with a good craps dealer, and you're betting pattern is not out of left field, he will get a feel for what your strategy is so you often can throw chips in without saying anything. Personally, I still state my intentions, but I tend to not be very loud about it. The dealer knows, etc.

What I often do, regardless of what kind of chips I use, is to place them on the line between the field and come. That way, when the dealer gets to me, if he doesn't already know by my history, he HAS to ask what it is for.

Some things that aren't obvious by reading about it:

If you're not betting the pass line, there's nothing wrong with putting a place bet on the point. Typically, bettors that are betting the line will have their bets moved when the point changes, as you described. This is simply because it's silly to be betting both the pass and the place, so move that place bet on the new point, to the prior point, where you don't already have a place bet. Get it?

If you throw in a green at a $10 table and say "6, 8", you'll get your $1 change right away. You don't have to ask for it, or specify '$12 each'. On the other hand, if it's a $5 table, if you don't specify how much, he may ask if it's $6 or $12 each, or he may spread them inside, or he may remember what you did last time.

The term "Inside" refers to a place bet on 5, 6, 8 and 9, not including the point, unless you don't have a pass line bet on the point. "Outside" refers to 4, 5, 9, 10. "Across" means all 6 numbers.



In your search for a $5 craps table, be sure you don't accidentally play at a crapless table. I think the only place in Vegas that has one is Stratosphere. Crapless means the 2, 3, 11 and 12 are also valid points, and can have place bets like the other numbers. It's a wierd game and really screws with a novice's head.



Player's card? Absolutely. Yeah, you may get just a few offers, and they may dry up quickly, but you can always call a year or two later and ask if you can get a player's hotel rate. Worst that will happen is they'll say 'no.' Then again, they may fall in love with you. I played at Green Valley Ranch for just a couple hours about 5 years ago. I STILL get a phone call (yep! a live person phone call) once a year or so.

Quote: boymimbo

1. When you toss in your money (hopefully during a break in the action), call your bet. If I come in mid-point or mid-roll (which I do when there is a break in the action or I am on the same side of the table as the shooter), I toss in the money and call my bet ($12 six/eight). They'll quickly sweep the money and hand the dice. This avoids you having to wait for the chips and making a bet.

This won't always work in all casinos. In some places I have heard them say "Cash DOES NOT play." They will go through the whole process of counting out your entire chip stack that was cashed, and then make your bets and return the change to you. I have seen this mostly when a table is really busy. It doesn't happen often, just don't be surprised if it should happen to you.

Thanks for the correction. I haven't had this happen to me in Vegas or locally where I play, but I think that it does happen in Atlantic City for some reason.

First. You should ALWAYS sign up for a players club card. There is no downside to it and there are considerable upside potentials in the offers you will later receive and in the potential for getting comps, even if you think your action is too insignificant for them to notice you. They can be forward thinking and be willing to invest in your future play. You do NOT need to go to the Players Club desk to sign up, but will usually get a few "freebies" if you do such as a trinket or something. If you want you can simply give your drivers license to the floorman at the craps table and the floorman will fill out a membership application for you electronically and give you your card after about ten or fifteen minutes depending upon how busy everyone is. I would suggest taking the time to go sign up and even if the mailings stop, you are still in their computer if you should happen to show up later and want a good deal on a room or something. Its nice to have the paperwork already completed if you do happen to take another trip to Las Vegas sooner than you think you will. By the way, I think it is best to have ALL your player club cards on a small key ring or small loop. That way when you hand in the appropriate card, the floor person will be impressed and think you just might be a more valuable player to them than you actually are. It never hurts to impress a floor person. He can nudge your rating up a notch if he wants to. If things are real slow, its a conversation starter. If things are busy, he will at least notice the other cards and feel that you have some more potential than he might otherwise think. Just make sure that the ring or loop does not interfere with them sliding your card through their equipment's magnetic strip reader. Five or six players club cards, even if they are ALL expired ones, can help you.

When you buy in... they may ask you "how do you want it" or they may simply give you what they think you probably want. If you have any preferences, say so. Anytime you have a large chip you can just put it down and ask the dealer for change. You will probably want to put a Red down and say "cheque change" just to get five whites so you can tip the cocktail waitress. If you've just bought in and a cocktail waitress makes her initial appearance a good craps dealer will already have five white chips in his hand anticipating your need for cheque change. You can certainly put a Green Chip down and get five reds whenever you want to. It is ofcourse polite to wait until the dice are in the middle of the table to do so and let the dealer do more important things for a few moments. he won't forget you but keep alert anyway!

If you have a place bet on the six or eight the dealer will PROBABLY automatically ask you if you'd like him to shift it over if that becomes the point. So a Place Bet on the Six will be moved to the Eight if the point becomes six. If you have both the 6 and the 8 placed, they will probably suggest you press the 8 if the point becomes 6. They will usually not try to have you convert it to a 5/9 or Field bet. Its YOUR money. Its YOUR decision. A good dealer will ask you once or twice and after that do it automatically for you and tell you he is doing it. Don't ever be afraid to appear to be a moron... the dealers are supposed to explain things and its YOUR money. Sure if its a very busy table they might not be able to give a newbie their full attention, but usually they have to earn their tips and the best way is to provide help where it is needed.

Quote: boymimbo

Thanks for the correction. I haven't had this happen to me in Vegas or locally where I play, but I think that it does happen in Atlantic City for some reason.

Not in AC. Almost every time I buy in, they say, "Change only or any bets?" so you can say "$15 on the line". Sometimes they don't ask and just say "Change Only", but if I ever say "$15 on the line" or "Buy the 4 and 10, quarter each", I have never had them say "Sorry, cash doesn't play..." Granted, just my experience, but I've played Craps at every casino in the city.

Quote: FleaStiff

By the way, I think it is best to have ALL your player club cards on a small key ring or small loop. That way when you hand in the appropriate card, the floor person will be impressed and think you just might be a more valuable player to them than you actually are. It never hurts to impress a floor person. He can nudge your rating up a notch if he wants to. If things are real slow, its a conversation starter. If things are busy, he will at least notice the other cards and feel that you have some more potential than he might otherwise think. Just make sure that the ring or loop does not interfere with them sliding your card through their equipment's magnetic strip reader. Five or six players club cards, even if they are ALL expired ones, can help you.

Ya know, I've often wondered about that. Doesn't it say the opposite? Doesn't having all those cards say that you're loyal to no casino, that you spread your money around, so why should the casino want to cater to you?



Regarding the "cash doesn't play" thing: It's technically a rule, but one that gets overlooked. Usually, the only times a dealer specifies "change only", invoking the rule, is when he didn't hear your intentions and/or when the dice are on the move.

Thank you all for the informative (and fast!) replies. You alleviated all my (current) concerns about standing at the craps table. I'll dig all my player cards out of the drawer too - I figure that concept can't really hurt!

Now I'm just getting anxious about how much time I'll actually get on the casino floor. I have to help set up our booth on Sunday, but that looks like the main day I'll have to play. I'm not sure what time the thing wraps up, but hopefully with have a good chunk of Thursday evening too. I don't know if my colleagues are into gambling at all either, which could make things awkward. Back in Reno I had people following me around the floor because they had zero idea what to do for themselves. Strange.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Ya know, I've often wondered about that. Doesn't it say the opposite? Doesn't having all those cards say that you're loyal to no casino, that you spread your money around, so why should the casino want to cater to you?



Regarding the "cash doesn't play" thing: It's technically a rule, but one that gets overlooked. Usually, the only times a dealer specifies "change only", invoking the rule, is when he didn't hear your intentions and/or when the dice are on the move.

Yeah, technically "No Call Bets" is a rule too, but every place I've been they'd rather you do that, keep your hands up, and give them the chip later than throw your chips if the dice are out. Usually I hold my bet up to my face and say "Press my 6..." so they know how much I mean. Again, a good crew is going to know that you aren't trying to cheat the casino, especially if you have a history of years of never cheating the casino.

When buying in, I have never had a dealer not accept a bet called with the start-up cash, provided the dice are still in the center. The stick man may hold the dice for the cash & chips to be counted, but usually not. As for later called bets, I have found that they are generally accepted if you are clear about what you want, the dice are not moving, and you have chips in your rack. I have even called fairly late bets a couple of times when I notice I am missing something I usually bet, even when the shooter has the dice in front of him but is taking an eternity to set them. I call them rather than reach out with the chips and risk having the shooter suddenly act. Unless the table is crowded and the action heavy, this doesn't seem to bother anyone, provided you don't make a habit of it. The dealer will either say, "It's a bet," or "no bet".

The story on "No Call Bets" is that a call bet is considered made when a player unknown to the crew wanders up to the table and says something like, " $120 place 6 & 8", with no visible cash or cheques in hand. This is a "call bet". This is a different thing entirely from a player with a healthy bunch of chips in his rack, who has some time at the table, who makes a semi late bet verbally. If the player is concise saying the type and SIZE of the bet, chances are the dealers will "book" the action, but when the dealer says "BET", it's iron clad, and if the dice 7-out that roll, there's no 'Well maybe I didn't mean that roll..." when the dealer " books" the bet he is in essence giving you a verbal receipt for that action...he'll pay off if you win, no problem...but take losers and no argument. You used to be able to wager cash money on the tables here in Nevada, but about 12 years or so back, it became verboten within the state...management insisted it was due to a rules change by either the Control Board or the IRS, take your pick, but you'll be informed right up front that betting cash on a live game isn't permitted if you attempt to do it.

Wow! Five years, five and a half months to get a follow-on to my post. Wonder what prompted that!

LOL! I didn't notice the date! obviously...