Comp Accumulation Rates

This has probably been discussed before, although things may have changed, and as I'm contemplating a particular strategy of play geared toward accumulating drawing entries, any responses would be appreciated. My main question is whether or not playing on a full table results in less comps per hour than playing solo: is casino software sophisticated enough to compensate for table fullness and the resultant less estimated hands per hour? (I'm assuming here that the drawing entries I earn are directly proportional to the comps I earn).

Thanks in advance!

I don't believe the number of players at the table factors into your rating.

I believe the factors for table games comps are:
Buy in, average bet, number of hours played, and then at some games, your skill level.

Quote: RaleighCraps

I don't believe the number of players at the table factors into your rating.

I believe the factors for table games comps are:
Buy in, average bet, number of hours played, and then at some games, your skill level.

I am not sure this is correct. It is my understanding buy-in no longer matters. And speed does matter. They are after a players theoretical loss and and speed of game plays a big part in that. A player playing heads up for an hour and playing 200 rounds per hour should get more comps than the player playing a full table for an hour betting the same amount, who gets 30 rounds.

I think some of these things like buy-in and speed changed after Max Rubin published 'Comp City' in which he advocated playing at a full, slow table with big buy-ins, much bigger than necessary for the action you were giving them, and milking the casino for comps.

Quote: kewlj

I am not sure this is correct. It is my understanding buy-in no longer matters. And speed does matter. They are after a players theoretical loss and and speed of game plays a big part in that. A player playing heads up for an hour and playing 200 rounds per hour should get more comps than the player playing a full table for an hour betting the same amount, who gets 30 rounds.

I think some of these things like buy-in and speed changed after Max Rubin published 'Comp City' in which he advocated playing at a full, slow table with big buy-ins, much bigger than necessary for the action you were giving them, and milking the casino for comps.

Certainly it would make sense to do so, I just don't know if the casino software does, hence my question. The Pit Boss adjusts average bet accordingly, so it makes sense to at least have a high initial bet for those that don't keep track so vigilantly. If the software comps full-table play at the same rate as solo play on a game like 3-card poker, you're seriously losing out playing solo. Anyone know for sure if that's the case?

Quote: kewlj

I am not sure this is correct. It is my understanding buy-in no longer matters. And speed does matter. They are after a players theoretical loss and and speed of game plays a big part in that. A player playing heads up for an hour and playing 200 rounds per hour should get more comps than the player playing a full table for an hour betting the same amount, who gets 30 rounds.

I think some of these things like buy-in and speed changed after Max Rubin published 'Comp City' in which he advocated playing at a full, slow table with big buy-ins, much bigger than necessary for the action you were giving them, and milking the casino for comps.

I agree that it certainly would make sense to do it this way, but I don't think it happens like this.
I go on casino junkets, and my agent gets paid based on my 'action'. They get my rating each trip. It contains my Buy in amounts, my hours, and my theo. So they are still tracking Buy in.
Out on the main floor, where the Pit is tracking play on 10 tables, and making the rounds every 15 minutes, do you think they are really notating how many players are on the table when they rate you? I highly doubt it. Now in the High limit area, it would agree it is much more likely that may be noted.

I do have to say though that I never get rated on any table game other than craps, so perhaps that is a major factor. There have been two times I was rated at Pai Gow Poker. The first was just an accident, I gave them my card without thinking, and the second time was when I thought I was going to settle in for a 4 hour session, and decided to get credit for the play. Both were a major mistake. I was not rated correctly at all, and both ratings were seriously lower than what I get playing craps. I probably lose out on some comp dollars on a trip by not getting my 3 or 4 hours of Pai Gow Poker rated, but my average bet rating is MUCH higher by not getting rated at Pai Gow, so I think that is good trade off.

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Quote: RaleighCraps

Out on the main floor, where the Pit is tracking play on 10 tables, and making the rounds every 15 minutes, do you think they are really notating how many players are on the table when they rate you? I highly doubt it.

If they use any sort of computer system when they take your card, they wouldn't need to: the computer would know.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I can't say for certain but on consecutive days while playing TCP, I earned $800+ in comps the first day and $500+ the second. Both days I played the same amount of time and bet the same. The first day had no more than me and three others at the table. On the second day, the table was generally filled all day.

That's interesting, and at least at that particular casino, seems to imply people at the table are figured into the calculation someway.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I can't say for certain but on consecutive days while playing TCP, I earned $800+ in comps the first day and $500+ the second. Both days I played the same amount of time and bet the same. The first day had no more than me and three others at the table. On the second day, the table was generally filled all day.

How in the HELL did you earn that much comp at 3CP?!?! Were you betting $500 minimum???

The pit software I have worked on has always included an option for speed of play when rating players. Typical options are just slow, normal, and fast for blackjack which are translated into an estimated hands per hour.

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Quote: RaleighCraps

I don't believe the number of players at the table factors into your rating.

I believe the factors for table games comps are:
Buy in, average bet, number of hours played, and then at some games, your skill level.

Raleigh THE BELOW COMMENTS ARE FROM A DISCUSSION AMONG CASINO EXECUTIVES ON lINKEDIN

Calculating an Average Bet is basically using an arithmetic mean, that is, if a customer plays 5 hands at $100 the average bet would be $100. If the same customer makes bets of $100, $75, $50, $100 and $75 on the 5 hands, the average bet would be $80. Suppose over the course of play a customer makes 20 wagers at $100, 5 wagers at $500, 4 wagers at $1,000 and 1 wager at $2,000, the average bet would be $350. I understand that our Supervisors will estimate the average bet especially in areas outside High Limit because of multiple game responsibilities, but they should adhere as closely as possible to the average of the wagers.
When customers sit out from play their rating must be “paused” thereby avoiding inflated ratings for time played, that is the reason we allow only 5 Free Hands per Shoe, those 5 Free Hands allow the customer to not play without negatively impacting their average bet and without the Supervisor pausing their play. Realistically if the customer sits out sporadically and it becomes a burden on the Supervisor to maintain control over their assigned games, then either the time played is adjusted down or the hands sat out have a 0 wager and figure into the average bet.
"House Money" is the chips in the tray. Once it is in front of the player and wagered it must be calculated into the average bet.

Promos are usually calculated with theoritical win formula which includes expected number of the hands to be dealt in an hour for each game. John's calculation example is accurate. And finally, I'm totally agree with Bill; whatever customer bets deserves to be rated, it cannot be seperated as their own money or house money.

One thing to add to all the excellent replies. The rating must make sense! Example: Player plays blackjack and records a win of $15,000 over two hours. Average bet recorded by us, $25. This was an actual rating in the system last year. Having my doubts, I reviewed the tape. The player started flat betting $25 but very quickly went on a run and power pressed to the table max. After that, he started flat betting $200 and used a progressive betting system to earn his $15,000 win. I spoke to the shift manager and he had signed off on the rating and not mentioned the action in the shift report. Just poor communication really but a good example of a rating not making sense. All the best for 2013 to all of us, nose to the grindstone, in the Casino business!

I think we are talking the exact same problem although you may have misinterpreted my abbreviated description. Most computerized systems now automatically calculate theo but only by correct input of actual time played. There again if a player is only playing 40 hands in 4 shoes (sitting or asking free hands) and no adjustment is made the actual theo of this player vs the reported will be incorrect. Thus I think we are talking the exact same problem although you may have misinterpreted my abbreviated description. Most computerized systems now automatically calculate theo but only by correct input of actual time played. There again if a player is only playing 40 hands in 4 shoes (sitting or asking free hands) and no adjustment is made the actual theo of this player vs the reported will be incorrect. Thus the player will receive reinvestment they are not entitled to. .

4 different casino executives, so evidently they are not as dumb as AP's think they are. ?

Love that corporate lingo " the player will receive reinvestment they are not entitled to. "

Probably some are smart and some are dumb, as is the case for most professions. You also had a shift manager sign off on a rating that said someone was betting $25/hand for 2 hours and won $15k (a mathematical impossibility) and another guy (the guy being replied to) who thought that people shouldn't be rated for betting "house money".

The sad part about the first one was that, if the guy had gotten unlucky, lost some big bets at the end, and lost most of his winnings back, it would not have stuck out and he would have been stuck with his $25 rating. I think it's always a good idea to ask the supervisor what your rating was when you leave a table.

Thanks Buzz. That was a great read.

And thanks DRich for your information about the speed of play input. That to me makes the most sense. Since not everyone hands in a player's card, if you left it up to the computer to decide how many players were at the table, it could be off on the calculation.

As for Ibeatyouraces' difference in the 2 days comp, that easily could just be the average bet rating being done differently. One floor could have been looking at only the big bets, while the other floor was only looking at the lower bets. As was noted in Buzz's note, I have had ratings done where they obviously took my starting bet, and never adjusted after I started playing bigger bets.

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