Define PLOPPY

From a BLACKJACK section thread.........

Quote: SOOPOO

CLEARLY, the casino would prefer a 'ploppy' to an AP. The AP IS worth less as a patron of the casino. 99+% of casino players are 'ploppys'. Every craps player, every roulette player, every slot player is a 'ploppy'.... the rare AP BJ player or 3CP holecarder I would guess make up less than 1% of casino patrons.

grrrrrrr. must restrain self from using 18 font. grrrrrrrr...........................

Do you REALLY feel every craps player is the same as every BJ player who has no clue on BS? IF so sir, I submit you are sadly mistaken.

Since mistakes made in playing other than perfect strategy can be quantified, it is possible to determine what the real house edge is by players who are not playing correctly. Perhaps the time has come to determine at what house edge does a person become a ploppy.

Are you a ploppy for playing perfect BS on a BJ 3:2 game?
Are you a ploppy for playing perfect BS on a BJ 6:5 game?
Are you a ploppy for playing single zero roulette?
Are you a ploppy for playing double zero roulette?
Are you a ploppy for only making a DP bet on craps, and taking max odds?
Are you a ploppy for only playing DP bets, but taking the bet back when the point is 6 or 8?


I would venture that 80% of the people who claim to be AP, make enough mistakes that they are still playing a -EV game. They might be winning, but it is due to positive variance, not because they are executing perfectly as an AP. That leaves a very large population left, who are all playing -EV.
Those who are playing a low edge game, and playing low edge bets, should not be considered ploppies (IMO).

A ploppy plays a low edge game poorly, significantly increasing the house edge.
A ploppy plays games with bad rules, when there is a game with better rules nearby (playing 7/5 JOB when a 9/6 machine is right beside it).
A ploppy plays games that have a high edge.

I believe there are FOUR major classifications of casino patrons:

Advantage Players - (many believe, few actually are) - are playing a game with a +EV through rewards programs, or counting, but disqualify cheaters, as they are not AP's, they are cheaters.
Casino Players - what percentage? - This group plays good to perfect basic strategy at their game of choice, and seeks out games with the lowest house edge, when possible. Is 2% or less a reasonable HE ? What should the cutoff HE be?
Recreational player - what percentage? - Plays games in the 4-5% range? Plays pretty well, but does not know perfect strategy, and doesn't care to know. Just enjoys playing.
PLOPPY - what percentage? - Plays a low edge game, but plays so poorly the HE is large. Plays carnival games, but expects to win. Plays games with bad rules when the next table has the same game with better rules.

Let's define What should be the HE at which a person crosses from casino player to recreational to ploppy ?

deleted

I got you going, Raleigh! I was lumping all players who play negative expectation games into the 'ploppy' group. If you think about it, a black chip baccarat player is more of a 'ploppy' to the casino than a below average red chip BJ player. Same could be said for a green chip craps player, who buys a number here and there, and puts a red on any C, and drops a few on the hard 8....... That craps player is as much a 'ploppy' as anyone, because over time, he is 'plopping' his money down with little chance to beat the casino!

Edit- I agree with Ibeatyouraces' post preceding mine...

I sat at a S-17, Lucky Lady side bet BJ table with a guy yesterday who was pretty much text book definition of a 'Ploppy'


1) Never hit 15 or 16 against anything. Never surrendered either, just stood on hard 15s and 16s.

2) Always played $1 on the Lucky Ladies side bet, he hit simultaneous Identical 10s, but easily lost it all back.

3) Had A-A against dealer 10 and DOUBLED down! Did not split or even just hit to justify it. He was dealt a 10, and the next card was a 9. Dealer had 20. His rationale for not splitting... "I always gets 4's and 5's when I split Aces!" So you anticipate a low card and DOUBLE Aces?

4) Doubled soft 18 against an 8 and soft 14 against the same dealer 8. Both hands were losers.

5) When things got rough, he proclaimed "ever since that guy sat down we lost every hand" That guy happened to be my friend who was just watching and having a few free drinks while I doubled my $400 buy in to just over $800. But in his mind, the open spot not being played was the reason he was losing!

6) He also stated "Every time I double against a 6, he has a 5 in the hole and beats me. So I'm not doubling!" Which happened a total of two times, but those bad times always outnumber the good ones in Ploppy logic.

7) And the best of all, he played insurance against every dealer ACE because... "When they have an Ace, they're 90% likely to get BJ. But when we get Aces, we're 90% likely NOT to get BJ!"


Needless to say, he went broke first, while myself and two others cashed over $600 each well after he left.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The definition is over on bj21.com.

To me though, a ploppy is ANYONE that is not an AP. I also don't use it in a derrogatory way. Civilian is a lot nice of a term though.

I'll repeat the BJ21.com definition here for anyone too lazy to find it.

Quote: bj21.com

Ploppy. A term coined by gambling author Frank Scoblete to describe a typical uninformed gambler. A ploppy often is ignorant, offensive, and sometimes tries to influence other patrons' actions through superstition or stating as fact his or her misunderstanding of the games or odds. (See also: Civilian)

Just for reference, here is how they define civilian:

Quote: bj21.com

Civilian. An average casino patron; not an advantage player. A civilian knows little or nothing about casino countermeasures against advantage players. Usually better behaved, a civilian is a slight step above a ploppy. (See also: Ploppy)

I tend to agree with those definitions, but there are gray areas.

To me the real key is "uninformed." If you play terrible strategy at a BJ, you are a ploppy. If you expect to win at anything and aren't an AP, you are a ploppy.

If you are an informed gambler who is aware of the house edge and seeks out the best games, but in the end know it is just recreation and expect to lose, I personally would not call you a ploppy, like IBYA and SOOPOO would. But like I said, it's not a hard-and-fast definition. In fact I would call that person a typical WoV poster :).

I'd split it in to two camps:

1) Serious gamblers

2) Ploppies.

You can be an advantage player and fall into either group. You can be a dumb-ass player and fall into either group. "Ploppy" is an attitude, not a skill set.

[edited to add, "TO ME."]

Quote: RaleighCraps

Advantage Players - (many believe, few actually are) - are playing a game with a +EV through rewards programs, or counting, but disqualify cheaters, as they are not AP's, they are cheaters.
Casino Players - what percentage? - This group plays good to perfect basic strategy at their game of choice, and seeks out games with the lowest house edge, when possible. Is 2% or less a reasonable HE ? What should the cutoff HE be?
Recreational player - what percentage? - Plays games in the 4-5% range? Plays pretty well, but does not know perfect strategy, and doesn't care to know. Just enjoys playing.
PLOPPY - what percentage? - Plays a low edge game, but plays so poorly the HE is large. Plays carnival games, but expects to win. Plays games with bad rules when the next table has the same game with better rules.

>Plays carnival games, but expects to win.
So what... she also expects to get free drinks and she also expects to have sex with her friends who are at the table with her and even if they are new found friends she will be dragging them up to her room after a few more of those freebie drinks. So what about the darn House Edge... why should she make that the God of all her actions? Sunday is a good day to drive too! And so what if she occasionally splits tens or something. She is there to have fun and an expectation of winning is part of the fun. What you gonna do? Stay there and contemplate house edges when she offers you the use of her curves?

Quote: FleaStiff

Quote: RaleighCraps

Advantage Players - (many believe, few actually are) - are playing a game with a +EV through rewards programs, or counting, but disqualify cheaters, as they are not AP's, they are cheaters.
Casino Players - what percentage? - This group plays good to perfect basic strategy at their game of choice, and seeks out games with the lowest house edge, when possible. Is 2% or less a reasonable HE ? What should the cutoff HE be?
Recreational player - what percentage? - Plays games in the 4-5% range? Plays pretty well, but does not know perfect strategy, and doesn't care to know. Just enjoys playing.
PLOPPY - what percentage? - Plays a low edge game, but plays so poorly the HE is large. Plays carnival games, but expects to win. Plays games with bad rules when the next table has the same game with better rules.

>Plays carnival games, but expects to win.
So what... ?

Eh, some of the carnival game jockeys are just too set in their own ways to change. They will continuously throw money on Progressives or Bonus bets not realizing the ACTUAL odds of hitting it or even how much they lose before it actually shows up.

I have to think that they are not even playing for money, but playing for the "thrill" of getting that magical hand and a 30-1 or 40-1 payout that barely covers their buy-in(or re buy-in) It's not about making money for them, it's simply "I have to beat this dealer/game" and even if they make money one time, they'll dump it all back.

Quote: RaleighCraps

I believe there are FOUR major classifications of casino patrons:
...

I can't say I would agree with this. It tries to pigeonhole everyone into categories based on a single factor. And it tries to redefine terms that are already established. "Casino Players" includes all four of these classifications, for instance.

As for what categories... I would say it's easy to id several overlapping categories:
`Cheater`
`Advantage Player` - plays games with direct monetary +EV exclusively. Can be pro (main source of income) or amateur. Doesn't have to be successful to count as AP, as long as has the right direction.
`Comp hunter`- low monetary -EV, but gets positive value through gaming the comps. No pros here.
`Solid player` - someone playing reasonable games and minimizing loss. Knows the odds of his game.
`Tourist/bad player/loser/etc` - anyone not fitting the above criteria

`Ploppy` - anyone lower than the speaker on the list above.

But these are not exclusive, definitive or anything. Just a few distinctive categories.
There is no exact HA threshold. Someone playing PGP at 6.5% vig may still be a solid player, while someone playing non-BS BJ at 1.5% is not.

" But these are not exclusive, definitive or anything. " I certainly can not argue with that statement.

Quote: RaleighCraps

Do you REALLY feel every craps player is the same as every BJ player who has no clue on BS? IF so sir, I submit you are sadly mistaken.

Well, a "ploppy" generally refers to an unskilled BJ player. The average unskilled BJ player that I see plays with a house edge that I would estimate to be somewhere between 1 and 2% in games with reasonably decent rules. Compare this to the craps player who avoids the more atrocious bets and simply sticks with the don't, as you mentioned. Those players are also playing in the area between 1 and 2% in the house's favor. However, the term "ploppy" was originally coined to describe players who don't care about playing optimally and instead opt to just "plop" into a chair and play blackjack unskillfully, then I suppose you're right—craps players normally play standing up!

Still, I don't use the term "ploppy" because it a) sounds stupid, and b) is a derisive term. I feel that many APs (and poker players especially) have an unreasonable level of contempt or at least irresponsibly arrogant attitude toward recreational players (i.e., the people who generate work for APs and poker players in the first place), which is not only bad for business but is simply a bad way to live life, in my opinion. If someone wants to gamble for fun, I hold no personal judgement on their choice of entertainment venues. In fact, I think casinos can often be a good value for entertainment, if you know how they work. Hell, I've even thrown around a couple of dollars on a craps table in my day just to have a few drinks and BS with friends. As such, I prefer terms like "civilian," "recreational player," or simply "gambler."

To me a ploppy is more than someone who is ill informed and/or plays poorly or stupidly, although this certainly part of the definition. Remember the derivation of "ploppy"--someone who plops down next to you and through ignorance or obtuseness delays the game, tries to engage in unwanted conversation,and generally creates any number of unpleasant annoyances. (I don't have a problem with someone next to me who plays poorly or ignorantly as long as he does so unobtrusively--after all, it's his money he's losing,not mine) For example, someone who doesn't understand what come bets are is the dealer's problem; if he asks me questions about the come bet I just made when I've got money spread all over the table that I'm keeping track of then he's a ploppy.

While it's not a bright line, I would differentiate between a ploppy and a flea based on body odor, alcohol and tobacco consumption, argumentativeness, and failure to maintain an appropriate social distance (e.g. elbowing in next you to place a minimum bet).

Quote: SOOPOO

I got you going, Raleigh! I was lumping all players who play negative expectation games into the 'ploppy' group. If you think about it, a black chip baccarat player is more of a 'ploppy' to the casino than a below average red chip BJ player. Same could be said for a green chip craps player, who buys a number here and there, and puts a red on any C, and drops a few on the hard 8....... That craps player is as much a 'ploppy' as anyone, because over time, he is 'plopping' his money down with little chance to beat the casino!

Edit- I agree with Ibeatyouraces' post preceding mine...

Got me going? Nah, not really, but I did decide it was worth a new thread. :-)

I just never considered myself a ploppy for being an educated craps player. I certainly know I am stupid for playing a game that has -EV. I will not say I am stupid for playing a game that I know I am going to lose at, since I do not know I am going to lose. IF I knew that, and played, then I would be REALLY STUPID. As it is, I know the odds are against me winning, but I have a reasonable chance, and thus I will play. And, as an educated players (thanks to WoV and WOO) I know how to minimize my exposure.

But by the definition from that was posted, I am certainly not a ploppy.

However, the Don't player who always pulls back his bet on a point of 6 or 8, would fall very closely to me for that definition, since they are willingly giving up a bet on which they hold the edge over the house. A player who bets Big Red, instead of getting the better pay by hopping the 7s, could also be a ploppy, although I would say by hopping the 7s, that alone would also qualify.

I cannot see how the term ploppy can have anything but a negative connotation. I think I would rather be called a stupid craps player. LOL

Quote: FleaStiff

Quote: RaleighCraps

...
PLOPPY - what percentage? - Plays a low edge game, but plays so poorly the HE is large. Plays carnival games, but expects to win. Plays games with bad rules when the next table has the same game with better rules.

>Plays carnival games, but expects to win.
So what... she also expects to get free drinks and she also expects to have sex with her friends who are at the table with her and even if they are new found friends she will be dragging them up to her room after a few more of those freebie drinks. So what about the darn House Edge... why should she make that the God of all her actions? Sunday is a good day to drive too! And so what if she occasionally splits tens or something. She is there to have fun and an expectation of winning is part of the fun. What you gonna do? Stay there and contemplate house edges when she offers you the use of her curves?

She has a lot more going on than just thinking she is going to win at the Big 6, which she won't do. She is all about the social scene, and the carnival game is just the venue. I agree, that does not make her a ploppy. She has an agenda other than trying to win money, so she was not even in any of my categories. I was referring more to someone who goes to the Big 6, and seriously expects they are going to be able to double their money and leave.

I would put her as a recreational player, but again, because her primary objective is entertainment and social, rather than winning money, what she plays is mostly irrelevant. Unless she wins a huge jackpot, the next day she will be talking about everything else, other than the gambling she played.

Raleigh- I actually don't use the word ploppy in my vocabulary.... And I wouldn't call you a 'stupid craps player' any more than I would call myself a 'stupid tiles player'... As I've said many times, I play the games because I enjoy the thrill, the thinking, the chatter, the drinks, the dealer errors, the occassional weak house ways, .... but I know that the casino has the dge on me. You sound like you play for similar reasons.... Seeing the more negative connotation given to the term ploppy, I would say you are NOT a ploppy! I used my own term, 'chandelier players', for what others call ploppies....

deleted

I think at one point in time, we were all considered a Ploppy. All bright eyed and bushy tailed, seeing money go back and forth like nothing. We certainly didn't one day decide to count or become an AP with no prior casino experience, we just absorbed as much knowledge as possible and applied it to a setting it would potentially make a profit.

But we've all had our big losses early on, chasing that big hit or victory, and learned from it.

I remember the first few times playing BJ and not hitting 15 or 16 against 7,8,9,10,A. either to little or no success. Now it's almost like second nature to hit it and the times it helped has far outnumbered the times it hurt. So I can never fault someone who stands on it, because I get where they are coming from, but I do shake my head when they keep doing it despite losing every time. But it's their right and hopefully someday they'll learn to give it a try!

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Ploppies are the people that tell me "the money is on the pair plus or trips" all the while my stack is growing while they consistantly rebuy in.

I took some amazing abuse for not playing the fortune bonus on the Pai Gow tables. And it got worse when I got the straight flush the first hand at a new table. But I have decided I will only play that bet for $5 when the table is full, so I have the ENVY bonus active and can benefit from ALL of the other hands on the table as well. I did bank most of the time I had the option, until my wife started playing on the same table. Then it made no sense to pay a 5% vig just to win my own money back....

deleted

Quote: RaleighCraps

I took some amazing abuse for not playing the fortune bonus on the Pai Gow tables. And it got worse when I got the straight flush the first hand at a new table. But I have decided I will only play that bet for $5 when the table is full, so I have the ENVY bonus active and can benefit from ALL of the other hands on the table as well. I did bank most of the time I had the option, until my wife started playing on the same table. Then it made no sense to pay a 5% vig just to win my own money back....

Same thing happened to me at 3CP. Everyone was giving me hell for not playing the pair plus. My first hand was a 9, 10, J of diamonds. At this point, I was just praying it wasn't the million dollar hand. It was all good in the end, because the rest of the table lost all their money and I was up for the night. Later, I also got a couple 3 of a kinds, which I got crap for too.

I know some people hold two tiers - APs and ploppies.
Others hold three tiers - APs, ploppies, and "civilians."

The difference is whether those who are there to gamble, and are willing to pay to gamble, and know that their wins and losses are all down to luck, pivoting a depressed mean, should be called "ploppies." This I think describes the majority of craps, roulette, and baccarat players on this forum (and a minority in the casino - lucky them).

Anyone that does not play basic strategy or count (21). Period.
"The Ploppies say Grrrrr" if you understand the musical reference.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I just tell people that I don't like side bets.

I use the same line.

Once, playing UTH, someone was so upset that I wasn't playing my trips bet that he wanted to bet my trips spot as well as his. I said "sure". The dealer said "no, that's not allowed".

It was pretty comical. That player was trying to give his money to the casino and the casino was refusing. I was trying to figure out who was making the worse decision between the two of them.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I use the same line.

Once, playing UTH, someone was so upset that I wasn't playing my trips bet that he wanted to bet my trips spot as well as his. I said "sure". The dealer said "no, that's not allowed".

It was pretty comical. That player was trying to give his money to the casino and the casino was refusing. I was trying to figure out who was making the worse decision between the two of them.

This has happened to me as well, I never play side bets (they're for ploppies), and people are always asking why. I had a very nice couple sitting to my right ask if they could play my Pairs Plus side bet. Sure I said...this went on for 10-15 hands. Then a relief dealer showed up and said. "you're not allowed to do that". They complained to the floor sup. She said. "Yeah, I can't let you play his side bet." So in that case mayhap the casino was the ploppy. :)

No... ploppies are those who do not follow what is generally deemed to be a basic strategy but who do indeed follow the rules.
The casino, in not allowing a stranger to bet your side bet is simply following the established rules rather than being a ploppy.

I've found that many casinos will allow the stranger to hand you the money to play it for them. Keep in mind that that the stranger is now at your mercy. Any wins belong solely to you to do with as you please.

Based on the "non gaming" definition over at Urban Dictionary, I'd suggest that a more realistic definition should be; A casino patron who simply "plops" his money down and proceeds to play, without the benefit of knowledge or information that would increase their chances of winning at a particular game.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ploppy

I believe some money manager in Maryland was playing big at Caesars and started backing everyone else's bets at a BJ table which slowed the game until it was verified that the other players were still making the basic bets with their own money. I obviously forget the details on this so perhaps someone can find out if its relevant or not.

Quote: 1BB

I've found that many casinos will allow the stranger to hand you the money to play it for them. Keep in mind that that the stranger is now at your mercy. Any wins belong solely to you to do with as you please.

Yea, I get that all the time in Sp. 21 and other BJ games that have the Match the Dealer bet. Some member of the Asian community, who is pressing the Match bet hard, watches my matches come "close" or hit once or twice and asks to play $5 on it.

I say "Sure", she hands me the chip, I place it on the circle(for the camera) and it usually doesn't hit from there after. But the dealer didn't have a problem with it and even though it is usually against the rules, the house doesn't make a big deal.

If only they knew the Payout of 12-1 for a Perfect Match was just a fraction of what the actual odds are, like most side bets that require a certain sequence or correlation.

I imagine the difference is that there's no concern about collaboration in Spanish, unlike UTH. Even though it obviously can't be done this way, they probably figured it was just easier to set a blanket prohibition on cooperation than work out what can and can't be turned to AP.

It's a trips bet. There are no decisions to be made.