PlayHunter
PlayHunter
Joined: Sep 16, 2011
  • Threads: 66
  • Posts: 262
November 23rd, 2012 at 4:27:32 PM permalink
I think there are a few "poker teams" out there cheating honest poker players at the tables. They join in two or maybe 3 at the same table and using a coded body language of their own, they are colluding and tell each others exactly what cards they have been dealt!

Assuming I am not talking Science Fiction just lets say that there are always 6 people at a Texas Holdem table and all of equal skills.

What is the advantage (in %) gained by a group of 2 and respectively 3 people out 6 persons, if they are knowing each others cards?
(lets say they are also managing their bankrolls like a pool, and all wins and loses are actually splitted equally between team players)

What are the measures which usually the casinos are taking against and doing to prevent this type of cheating ? (Do they even care?)
How the casinos are even able to spot these teams even if they would care to maintain a fair gaming environment offered to players?
(*I am thinking that the team players have to be well trained with their body language, and the casino commissions are not affected)
Buzzard
Buzzard
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
  • Threads: 90
  • Posts: 6814
November 23rd, 2012 at 4:48:33 PM permalink
If you have never been cheated at Poker, then you have probably never played poker. But if you continually lose, it is probably a lack of skill. On-line poker is a cheater's paradise. The low lifes only started floating back into casino after on-line crashed.

All this BS on-line casino's put out about busting cheaters was usually just BS. Refund the chumps some money without details and they think all is good. Several top notch players get caught with multiple id' and other offenses. And then a few years later are paid reps of that same room. WTF.

Say what you will about most illegal rooms, that would never be tolerated.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 259
  • Posts: 13293
November 23rd, 2012 at 4:50:07 PM permalink
Regulars often form de-facto teams when a real fish appears. Most poker rooms frown on overt cheating such as a back-rubbing girl friend with roving eyes or something. In an online room your tablemates may have collusion software and might even be the same person.
Buzzard
Buzzard
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
  • Threads: 90
  • Posts: 6814
November 23rd, 2012 at 4:56:45 PM permalink
Subtle cheating is almost never caught. Just the fools that raise and raise, then drop out and their buddy wins. Just knowing the discards of 1 or 2 others and using that information can lead to 1 or 2 more big pots won a night. That's all the edge a good cheat needs. Like knowing your K high flush is good, or that 3 clubs were mucked.

On-line big tournament are subject to ghosting. At the final table instead of playing me, you are now playing a friend who is not only
much better, but all that info about how I played earlier is useless. On one of those radio show's ( not the Wiz ) these poker idiots did not see anything wrong with ghosting.

Yeah like have Tiger or Nicholson pay the last 9 holes for me is OK.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
PlayHunter
PlayHunter
Joined: Sep 16, 2011
  • Threads: 66
  • Posts: 262
November 24th, 2012 at 7:43:56 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

Subtle cheating is almost never caught. Just the fools that raise and raise, then drop out and their buddy wins. Just knowing the discards of 1 or 2 others and using that information can lead to 1 or 2 more big pots won a night. That's all the edge a good cheat needs. Like knowing your K high flush is good, or that 3 clubs were mucked.



Yes, I started this thread exactly with this in mind. - How high is the edge for each member of a 2 and respectively 3 team members ?

Quote: Buzzard

On-line big tournament are subject to ghosting. At the final table instead of playing me, you are now playing a friend who is not only much better, but all that info about how I played earlier is useless. On one of those radio show's ( not the Wiz ) these poker idiots did not see anything wrong with ghosting.

Yeah like have Tiger or Nicholson pay the last 9 holes for me is OK.



I was only thinking at real casino poker tables (saying team members must have a very good train for their coded body language) but if I re-think this whole scenario, then online must be also much easier, and not necessarily for the tournaments, BUT for ring games !?
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 5496
November 24th, 2012 at 8:25:05 AM permalink
It is the reason I will not play poker in a casino. Nervous nelly that I am! If I had a colleague at the same table, forget about actually knowing the exact cards, just use that colleague to keep raising a 'trapped' competitor. There are so many ways two linked players can win..... I can't give you an exact EV, as that will be determined by multiple factors, like how much information you can transfer, how good you are at using that information, and how aggressive you want to be using that information, and how good or bad the players you are playing against are. I find it hard to believe that this kind of swindle isn't happenning a lot more than people think. The casino has little interest in actively looking for this type of cheating, as since it will likely increase pot size, and thus the rake, the casino probably gains from these swindles.
Buzzard
Buzzard
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
  • Threads: 90
  • Posts: 6814
November 24th, 2012 at 8:38:36 AM permalink
" The casino has little interest in actively looking for this type of cheating, as since it will likely increase pot size, and thus the rake, the casino probably gains from these swindles. "

That is one area where legal casino's differ from the illegal ones prevalent in Colorado in the 80's versus after gambling was legalized in 1990. Cheaters were not tolerated in almost all the joints. You were guilty as charged and 86'd. And the words soon got around to the other places. Dealer jobs were provided, the rake was a hell of a lot lower, and tournaments with $10 or $20 entries usually kicked off at noon weekdays. 7 pm weekends.

Fairchild's had a 10 table tournament before Christmas every year. Entry was a new toy. Most were in the $30-$40 range. One stiff brought a used stuff animal . It went in the dumpster out back, followed by the stiff. We took turns sitting on the closed lid till the tournament started.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 5761
November 27th, 2012 at 12:13:14 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

It is the reason I will not play poker in a casino. Nervous nelly that I am! If I had a colleague at the same table, forget about actually knowing the exact cards, just use that colleague to keep raising a 'trapped' competitor.



This is not a good way to cheat. Signalling the cards is a much better strategy. The key is that the best hand plays. Example: Say we are playing a limit game. I have flopped a real hand (2 pair or a set). You have an ace-high flush draw and your partner has a king-high flush draw. It's correct for you to call, but I still make money off of each call you make (I just make more money if you fold). In a fair game, both of you call down to the river (one of you might even throw a flop raise in) But, since there are two of you, one of you can safely fold. Your "team" still gets the pot if the flush card comes, but I make only half as much money off your calls.

Another example: Suppose I raise before the flop. You have AQ and your partner has AK. You might normally call or reraise with AQ (depending on my play style, the position, etc) but here your team makes more money in the long run if you fold and let AK play. There is no reason to play a hand that is dominated by your partner. For example, say I raised with JJ. If I am getting calls from both AQ and AK I have a good edge. I win less than 50% of the time, but I'm getting 2-1 on my money, and I win more than 1/3 of the time. But if AQ folds it's pretty much a toss-up, and most of my edge is gone.

Trying to trap or force out an opponent with multiple raises and re-raises is not particularly effective. All you are doing is giving him 2-1 odds when he wins.

  • Jump to: