RNG = REALLY???

I never said it was full of tards, but as the creator of robots with vision on a 3-dimensional level that deals with not hoping it all works but rather insuring there is no possibilty of failure including a hot backup of dual circuitry and programs, I am hardly a guy walking around with a tinfoil hat as one shot a comment of. So when discussing probablities and Random Generators and weightings, it was trying to understand the hype in signs rather than the almighty statement of random. So calculating slot machine payouts also assumes one knows the true weightings and not some article saying which machines do best. But that was not the goal either way, it was to understand as I started out the discussion to understand the signs. Perhaps a failure in marketing, but never assume I am a failure at Engineering. Sure any engineer with a grain of salt can cook any program and make a processor as well as a RNG do what they want via a program or set of instruction sets. So the questions arose based on the signs......nothing more....nothing less.

Quote: MADMANJOE

Math......you explained as I had suspected and thats fine with me as number 2 explains the correlation between the RNG and weighting.
Now it makes sense there is a non-uniform distribution due to weighted reels.
...
The question came up because we take trips to Vegas and are comped and have a great time there, but the questions did begin with random vs. shall we say not so random.......then the one csaino that says 98% payouts.....thus the calculators came out and programs developed for the hell of it to see how that could be based on random and RNG's.

Thinking the games are "not so random" is where you get into trouble. They're not "non-random", they're just biased against you just as both of my two examples above. As long as you really comprehend the distinction between "equally-likely outcomes" and "randomness", this shouldn't be a problem. There are no slot games in Las Vegas that are based directly on the output of a software algorithm for pseudorandom number generation. They all use a mapping (a.k.a. scaling algorithm) to convert one or more 32-bit or 64-bit RNG outputs into an outcome relevant for the game. For video poker, it's the shuffle of a virtual deck of cards. For slot games, it's the final stop position of the 3 or 5 reels. For video keno, it's a shuffle of 80 numbers.

My example #2 above is basically how all multi-line slot games work. 5 ordered many-sided dice with unequal symbol probabilities is a good analog to a main spin of a 5-reel video slot. And for the older weighted virtual-reel 3-reel games, read the Telnaes patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4448419

Quote: tringlomane

I'm sure I would need to be guided a bit in terms of learning circuitry and other EE specifics for the creation of an RNG device, but no way it would be "beyond me".

And that's not even necessary: virtually all major gaming manufacturers use software PRNGs. Gaming jurisdictions don't typically require hardware RNGs that use thermal noise or quantum decay or anything. I've seen PRNGs seeded with actual human entropy (e.g. milliseconds between operator input when configuring a slot game) but the RNG itself was in software. There are good reasons for this, mostly having to do with the fact that once a given PRNG algorithm is approved, it stays approved and additional "manufacturing" or distribution costs are zero. Plus, with server-based gaming, if a change does need to be made, you just push new code over the wire. Replacing a hardware RNG (or any other hardware component) requires physical access to every machine, a much costlier endeavor.

I really want to know which company's engineers' (or their "Engineers") minds boggle as one at the concept of "expected value of a random variable." And I want everyone who will ever be potentially doing business with me, or with anyone I know, to know as well.

(On a different note, it was my understanding that the main difference between a slot machine and the ordinary PRNG you use in a simulation was that the slot machine, as long as it's switched on, is perpetually calling the PRNG so that human entropy adds an extra layer of randomness, not that it's seeded with human entropy, which it seems to me would be easier to track.)

Quote: MADMANJOE

Thanks Axiom and other guys replying.........as an Engineer, it is a fault I guess to see signs that brag of a payout and yet I look at random being just that....a simple good luck would be great over the machines, because if it is a true RNG then random can be not even close to 98% due to millions of spins can prove nothing relevant to 98%

In fairness, to be precise, the term "payout" should probably be replaced with "expected payout". But that would just confuse people who don't understand the concept of EV.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

As for RNGs, of course they mean Pseudo-RNGs, which generate millions of numbers per second so "for all intents and purposes" the number generated when you push the button is random. The closest I have seen to an actual RNG was back in the days of big iron computers, where the software could "read" a number from the line printer.

No, there are lots of real RNGs. Lots of microcontrollers have them built in (I've worked with them, and written code to run on them). They have a source of real entropy. You generally take that entropy and mix it into your PRNG. (There are cryptographically strong ways to do this -- I don't remember the details) As long as you are mixing in more bits of entropy than you are outputting bits from your PRNG, your output can be considered truly random.

Don't slot machines have something like this? They are really, really cheap (the microcrontrollers that I was using were some Atmel things that went for about $7 apiece or so). I'd be surprised if they stuck with deterministic PRNGs rather than reading a real source of entropy and producing truly random results, given the low cost.

Quote: Buzzard

A lawsuit alleges that the wheels are made to look like the real thing and, as such, mislead players into thinking a spin is a random act when in fact it isn't. Such misrepresentation violates Michigan consumer protection laws.

I have to say, I hope that they win the lawsuit, and I hope that Nevada implements some similar rules (although I know they won't)

I think that it's ridiculous that, if you have an image of dice, it must operate as fair dice would, and, if you have an image of playing cards, it must act as real playing cards would, but, if you have an image of a wheel, it can be as weighted as you like and you are allowed to mislead players into thinking that their odds of hitting a big payout are much higher than they are. At the very least, they should require a clearly visible sign stating that some outcomes are more likely than others on the wheel.

Perhaps a machine should state the expected payout and the variance. Of course, they would have to calculate the variance for each number of lines that could be wagered. Then, and only then, would it sate the likes of MADMANJOE.

This seems like another Statman to me.

This whole discussion raises a question:

If the OP is so smart, why is he arguing on an Internet forum about slot machines, when he can just google up a website that explains how they work? Or, if he doesn't believe the internet, then go to the library? Or buy a book? Or, being an engineer, ask around to see if any of his buddies know someone who designs slot machines?

Sheesh. I'm an English major who works selling stuff. I understand it pretty much. I couldn't build a machine, but I can conceptualize one.

Are dice rigged because I say that a seven will randomly appear one in six throws?

What about distributed pRNG's. Top Server generates the seed-output for a network of machines. Each token in the ring generates a pRNG, with a random-timed call for a new seed.
Does this hold up to scrutiny?

Quote: 24Bingo

(On a different note, it was my understanding that the main difference between a slot machine and the ordinary PRNG you use in a simulation was that the slot machine, as long as it's switched on, is perpetually calling the PRNG so that human entropy adds an extra layer of randomness, not that it's seeded with human entropy, which it seems to me would be easier to track.)

That's true but I was just talking about the seeding -- the initialization. During runtime, many gaming machines do indeed continually cycle the RNG so as not to be hackable by anyone with strong EE abilities.

A little bit off topic, but IIRC, a while back there was a thread here with a link that spoke of the rng on some keno games that would shift from payout mode to collecting mode. Anyone remember this? Sounds like bs but this thread got me looking for that.

Quote: 24Bingo

Go. Read up. I think this is the book I used.

Now my WWF ad wants me to buy this; thanks a lot. :P

But I guess it's a little more amusing than booking a hotel to some CET property. :)

Quote: Mooseton

A little bit off topic, but IIRC, a while back there was a thread here with a link that spoke of the rng on some keno games that would shift from payout mode to collecting mode. Anyone remember this? Sounds like bs but this thread got me looking for that.

They make that claim about everything electronic. Hell, it doesn't even need to be electronic: how many times have you heard someone go on about how roulette dealers do something-or-other differently depending on the table's projection? I don't think it's worth remembering, let alone looking up.

Quote: rdw4potus

Isn't that just a simple two-step process? RNG produces a random number from 1-100, each number maps to a result on the machine. Machine results are weighted to create the desired theoretical payback percentage. 1-60 produces a loss, 61-80 produces a push/small win, 81-95 produce medium wins, 96-100 produce large wins; overall payback is 95% or whatever.

Don't bring reality into this.

The RNGs in machines do produce random numbers as far as that is possible with programming. Each of the possible numbers has an associated payout. The payout association has no effect on the RNG.

The expected payout is determined by the total payout vs intake if each number came up the sane number of times. It's theoretical. It has no effect on the RNG.

It took about 45 seconds to find this.

Took you that long?
If equal ratings are shown as weighting as shown then why bother having an elaborate virtual wheel.
The question was on the signs and if these particular machines had a different weighting to insure that percentage. If random is truly
random, one can argue all day long with any formula you want and the RNG can pick the same losing number all day every day...just because
it can....or even one machine in the bank that can do that. It was just a question based on anyone can design a circuit with software that will allow
no payouts ever, or one that will insure payouts on every spin. Whether being a trade secret is fine with me, and a company should protect their secrets if loading can be changed. We played at several Casinos and this particular one had the signs.....I can only guess a great marketing ploy. this is not going to stop us having fun, but did raise the questions.
If I had a nickel on every time a person would say "don't play that machine, it is tight" I would be a gazzilionaire.....or even watch the locals because they know the loose machines.....or never go to the strip, they are always tight...if every machine is created equal with an RNG and loading is always the same, then such a thing is not possible to be said.
Long story short is what I questioned from the beginning is when a Casino proclaims and has a banner over a set of machines claiming xx% payout, is it really true or if it is NO different than any other machine, why bother with the signage.

Quote: MADMANJOE

If I had a nickel on every time a person would say "don't play that machine, it is tight" I would be a gazzilionaire.....or even watch the locals because they know the loose machines.....or never go to the strip, they are always tight...if every machine is created equal with an RNG and loading is always the same, then such a thing is not possible to be said.
Long story short is what I questioned from the beginning is when a Casino proclaims and has a banner over a set of machines claiming xx% payout, is it really true or if it is NO different than any other machine, why bother with the signage.

Machines can absolutely be tight or loose -- not every machine is "created equal". It is the job of a slot game mathematician to set the reel strips and paytables to hit a particular RTP target. Let's go back to my example from before:

Quote: myself

2) Bet a dollar and roll a fair six-sided die. This time, the faces are non-standard and are 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5. If a 1 rolls (p=1/6), you win $3.50 for 1. If a 2 rolls (p=2/6), you win $1 for 1. If 3-5 roll, you lose. This game has an RTP of 91.67%. While the individual faces on the die are still uniformly distributed (each has a 1/6 chance), the outcomes 1 through 5 are *not* uniformly-distributed because the 2 is twice as likely as the others. But the die-rolling process is still a random one.

#2 is essentially how all slot machines work. There is a uniform random variable produced by an RNG which is mapped to a non-uniform distribution of outcomes using weighted reels. The weighting of those reels, and the accompanying payouts for certain combinations (but not others) determines the RTP of the game.

Now let's add a third example:

3) Bet a dollar and roll a fair six-sided die. This time, the faces are non-standard and are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5. The payouts are identical to example #2, but the outcome probabilities are different. As a result, while game 2 has an RTP of 91.67%, this game 3 has an RTP of 75%. Game 3 is much tighter than game 2, but the only difference is the outcome weightings -- and that's not something the casual passer-by can detect. You'd feel it after a few rounds of this game, but only by playing it. In an actual slot game, this outcome distribution corresponds to the reel strips and symbol weights thereupon.

Most slot machine games come with a plurality of RTP selections so operators can choose where to set their RTPs tighter or looser. A bank of machines playing at 98% would indeed be considered loose compared to the average Las Vegas Strip floor par.

Thank you again Math Extreme.....it now makes sense if an Operator can change a machine to be either Looser or Tighter, then normal rules can be discarded. The only other mystery, and probably been asked before is......
Playing a 1 dollar machine that has a max bet of $2.......can there be dual programs running where as if you play 1 dollar the machine is weighted looser or tighter compared to playing the max bet?......the reason I asked is my wife playing $5 slots is convinced that she does better at playing a single bet rather than the max bet.....of course my stance was, if it is a single program running, the odds have to be the same. There are others that take issue with me on this as well in the opposite way that if you play the max bet the program somehow is switched and the odds suddenly become better......beats the hell out of me, but I could image that different bets produce or can produce a different program to run?

Quote: MADMANJOE

Thank you again Math Extreme.....it now makes sense if an Operator can change a machine to be either Looser or Tighter, then normal rules can be discarded. The only other mystery, and probably been asked before is......
Playing a 1 dollar machine that has a max bet of $2.......can there be dual programs running where as if you play 1 dollar the machine is weighted looser or tighter compared to playing the max bet?......the reason I asked is my wife playing $5 slots is convinced that she does better at playing a single bet rather than the max bet.....of course my stance was, if it is a single program running, the odds have to be the same. There are others that take issue with me on this as well in the opposite way that if you play the max bet the program somehow is switched and the odds suddenly become better......beats the hell out of me, but I could image that different bets produce or can produce a different program to run?

If I recall correctly, they are legally allowed to change the symbol mapping between denominations on the same unit, which in turn would change the return percentage between denominations. I don't believe they do this regularly though, and it's more likely the return is the same between denominations on a single machine. I'm also unsure if they can change the symbol mapping for having less credits in than a max bet. MathExtremist would know this more surely than I would though. One common exception to is for machines that offer a higher credit amount than expected for the jackpot with a max bet, then the return on that machine is usually higher with a max bet thanks to the higher jackpot return. Video Poker is a common example of this where you get 250 for 1 for making a Royal Flush when betting 1 to 4 credits, but get 800 for 1 with a Royal Flush when betting 5 credits.

Quote: MADMANJOE

Thank you again Math Extreme.....it now makes sense if an Operator can change a machine to be either Looser or Tighter, then normal rules can be discarded. The only other mystery, and probably been asked before is......
Playing a 1 dollar machine that has a max bet of $2.......can there be dual programs running where as if you play 1 dollar the machine is weighted looser or tighter compared to playing the max bet?......the reason I asked is my wife playing $5 slots is convinced that she does better at playing a single bet rather than the max bet.....of course my stance was, if it is a single program running, the odds have to be the same. There are others that take issue with me on this as well in the opposite way that if you play the max bet the program somehow is switched and the odds suddenly become better......beats the hell out of me, but I could image that different bets produce or can produce a different program to run?

Well, those *are* the normal rules, so there's nothing to discard. Games have worked that way since they were created by Charles Fey over 112 years ago. It's not like a roulette wheel where there is exactly one occurrence of each symbol on the wheel. Even without stepper control and an RNG, a simple weighting of the symbols on an otherwise equiprobable reel will still allow a slot designer to change the outcome odds. Just not longer than 1/N^3, which is what Telnaes accomplished. Go read that patent.

And no, the odds don't switch based on wager amount within a single denom -- that's illegal in most jurisdictions. What does happen, at least for standard 3-reel single line games, is the max coin bet will have a higher payout on the top award. Same for VP games and the royal flush bump. So for those games, your RTP is better betting max because the awards are higher (and not because the odds are better). But you can just look at the paytable to tell that. If you're playing a 2-coin $5 reel slot, there may be a 2nd coin bump. There may also be awards of $1199 to avoid the W2-G.

Thanks guys, perhaps my wife is just lucky playing the single shot each time.
I appreciate the responses and the knowledge gained.

Quote: MADMANJOE

Took you that long?

Yeah, I was watching DVR'd episodes of Prank My Mom and not really paying attention.

Quote:

If equal ratings are shown as weighting as shown then why bother having an elaborate virtual wheel.
The question was on the signs and if these particular machines had a different weighting to insure that percentage. If random is truly
random, one can argue all day long with any formula you want and the RNG can pick the same losing number all day every day...just because
it can....or even one machine in the bank that can do that. It was just a question based on anyone can design a circuit with software that will allow
no payouts ever, or one that will insure payouts on every spin. Whether being a trade secret is fine with me, and a company should protect their secrets if loading can be changed. We played at several Casinos and this particular one had the signs.....I can only guess a great marketing ploy. this is not going to stop us having fun, but did raise the questions.
If I had a nickel on every time a person would say "don't play that machine, it is tight" I would be a gazzilionaire.....or even watch the locals because they know the loose machines.....or never go to the strip, they are always tight...if every machine is created equal with an RNG and loading is always the same, then such a thing is not possible to be said.
Long story short is what I questioned from the beginning is when a Casino proclaims and has a banner over a set of machines claiming xx% payout, is it really true or if it is NO different than any other machine, why bother with the signage.

To change payout percentages you change the relationship between the virtual reel and the actual reel. I don't see what's so hard to understand.

What was hard to understand was.......do the Casino Operators have the ability to change weightings to insure looser machines in a bank of machines with a sign over it. I GET IT as to how it can be done, but rather do they actually do that to create a loose bank.

" I appreciate the responses and the knowledge gained. "

Unfortunately, you are the only poster on this thread to whom knowledge was gained. But I doubt it will be retained !

My brother in law is in charge of IT at Caesar's Joliet. They can change them, but they don't usually. The newest machines can be changed over the network, they don't need a tech to go out on the floor.

Some Aristocrat machines have a button right on the front, where you can choose lots of small jackpots, a mix, or less total hits but more big jackpots. The percentage payout stays the same from the player's perspective, though.

Interesting as well Mosca, when we went to Singapore as a group to teach a new Engineering Process for one of our Facilities, we went to the Casino which is the same one they showed on the Discovery Channel with the ship on top of 3 huge pillars.
Anyways this Casino was huge and busy is an understatement.......ok all that said, what we found interesting after playing for many hours is that periodically even when the "repeat bet" button was played there was a long pause before actually spinning the reels. This did not happen often, but this did happen periodically through the night to all of us. This of course had us wondering if "something" changed. Actually we were doing pretty good at losing, so I can't say if something did change or was being paused to something downloaded. I never had that happen at the Venetian or other Casinos we make a pilgrimage to. Again only can speculate as to why some things happen.

I can't speak for outside the US, but in many jurisdictions here in the US, the machine needs to be tagged and shut down for 15 minutes. I put a call in to my BiL, when he calls me back I'll ask him.

Thanks Mosca......at first I railed one of our fellow Engineers Mike that the machine doesnt like him anymore, and then it was my turn to see it actually stall. Then the other guys met up with us and said the same happened to them, but not at the same time. Of course never seeing that happen before and even multiple smacking the repeat bet button did not get the reels spinning........then all of a sudden they would start spinning. As I said if they were changing odds or whatever, it sure did not help us out. The machines looked like US machines with the exception of a few banks of machines that had rather wierd symbols on them and the machines would say thank you both in English and Chinese when you cashed out the ticket. The pause though was wierd with no message or apparant reason on why.

Here in PA, there is a very high tax rate on casinos, and my limited experience is that the same machine has different characteristics here and in AC. Minimum payout in PA is 85%. Lil' Red at Revel is decent, paying back lots of small wins and occasional medium wins. Lil Red at Mohegan Pocono is a death rattle. When Bombs Away first hit Mohegan, 6 machines were placed in a circle right at the entrance to the floor, and you had to stand behind someone and wait for a seat, and the chance of getting a decent hit was pretty good; you could put in $100 and play for a while, and sometimes walk away with a decent hit, like $500. Now, 6 months later, no one is sitting there and the machines are cold as ice, tight as hell; I put in $100 and got 3 Bombshell Bonuses that paid ZERO. And I've seen this at other machines. My seat-of-the-pants belief it that the $5 Wheel of Fortune machines are tighter than they used to be, as are the In The Money machines.

BUT, like others have written in this thread, that is my brain assigning a story to what I've experienced. BUT AGAIN, all those machines used to be pretty busy, and now they're abandoned. People play machines if they hit, people avoid machines when they don't. I'd say that is more relevant than my personal experience, the fact that no one is playing machines that used to be jammin'. Mrs Mosca used to wait for a Quick Hits machine, now she doesn't play it, and no one else does. I asked her why, and she answered that she stopped winning on it. Mohegan Pocono is less than 10 years old, and the machines are networked.

When we play at Potowatami we call it suck-it-outa-me......go in with a 1,000, and if you leave with 5 or 6 hundred you are doing good.
My sister in law is a Rest. Manager there and always says God bless you with the Wheel of Fortune machines......but of course i had to try and at 3 bucks a pop
it didn't take long to go through a couple hundred with only one wheel spin and got 25 bucks.
Of course that is 1 and 5 dollar machines but just saying the Indian Casinos are beyond my concept of close to break even. But a fun time at
watching and playing. Actually we do better in the high roller end.......perhaps again are they a little looser or a perception.
Vegas to me has done pretty good and we take 5000 each and have a blast, but then again perhaps just a perception of play vs. time.
In Brazil, we were told don't even think about it...LOL
In Poland, the Casino is so tight, I swear whatever they do to the machines is insane with little or no payouts, where as in Switzerland we all found they were VERY generous with small payouts, but no huge payoff from what we could tell over a couple nights there.
Haven't played in PA yet, but will try down the road because at 85%, that is not too bad in my opinion.
I guess to my point is I do at times try the Wheel of Fortune and found they are tight and I do mean tight compared to other dollar or 5 dollar slots.
God knows we understand Casinos are built on slots so to speak, but what the hell, it really is mindless fun and watching all the graphics go off on a decent win is a hoot.

AND then there is Santo Domingo........our group had to instruct new automation going in there at another of our Facilities....so we stayed at the Hamaca Coral which has a Casino and we had a blast because of the conversion rate and playing max with their coins...NOW they were all American machines by the looks of it, and I actually hit the Jackpot.......uh huh....and then after the conversion it was 100 American dollars.....now that gave the guys a great laugh because I thought I killed it....

Spoke with my BiL, he said that in the entire time he's worked there, they've never changed the payouts on any machine. They could change them from the back room, but they don't. He said that messing with them would probably make the take go down. I asked him about the procedure, he said he didn't know what it was because it isn't going to happen.

Then i am at a loss as to what we all witnessed with the machines stalling....and it was SIngapore.
I can say this for fact, I normally will hit the spin or repeat bet on an average of 1 to 2 seconds after the reels stop......unless I am having another sip of a drink, but normally thats what I do. I pressed the repeat bet and nothing happened....I pressed it again and nothing happened.......I was ready to hit the service button because I thought something was wrong and wanted my money out. The reels after around 15 seconds began to spin all by themselves.....If I was the only one, I would think it was some sort of "machine" thing going on. But seeing it happen first to another Engineer (although I wasn't sure of his timing) I was puzzled as to what just happened. When we all got together for a beer after a few hours, ALL the guys said it happened to them as well.
I have never seen such a thing like that before and never in all our years of going to Vegas have I ever witnessed that.
As a matter of fact, all the casinos I have been in I have not seen that including the Cruises we take every year. I put on over a 150,000 air miles a year traveling to these various Countries, and visit the Casinos when in the various Countries.
I guessed that maybe they were downloading something??.....no clue at all. Only an expert I guess of such an occurance or what can cause a machine to do that would know for sure?
Now I will say this if it was any clue, it was not a video machine, it was reels.
The only other wierd thing that happened to me was in Santo Domingo and if you tapped the spin button rather than gently pressing it, the machine would say TILT on it. The MAnager came over and said that machine was touchy. So I just went to another machine.
Was the machine sensative and actually sensing a Tilt condition in Singapore and then reset?........again can only guess.

Quote: MADMANJOE

Sorry Bingo but perhaps you should actually learn in school and not pretend to know random anything.
I never cared if there is an edge in winning, I am set pretty good in life, rather trying to understand the real definition of RANDOM to a SLOT MACHINE ya goof.
Ignorance is saying something is random with hanging a sign saying 98% payouts.
IF reels are biased and Licensed machines in gerneral TEND to be tighter as you just stated........then it is NOT random is it???? how the hell can
any RANDOM GENERATOR BE BIASED????????????????........YOU just admitted (I know the English language is a tough one for you) that Licensed machines in general tend to be tighter........THAT is random????
LEARN the definition of random. Apply it.
My career has been stellar. ANYONE using your statement of BIASED is all WET on a RNG
Good luck in your tinkertoy career....maybe it was at Hostess.

You seem to have calmed down, but I am truly surprised that you're name isn't in red right now for the above personal insults. If you'd read the rules of this community before posting you'd have known not to go there.

As for your top engineer status... I am doubtful. There are several key signs that indicate you're not even very good at using a computer in general and internet forums in particular* that show through in your posts, and your inability to understand (until 9 pages later) a fairly simple concept doesn't help either.

I've done a bit of programming in my time, and there's nothing incorrect or inconsistent in what the others have told you. What's puzzling is why an engineer wouldn't take five minutes to Google up some answers before going on a gambling math geek forum and making silly assertions.

Understanding the concepts of EV is not difficult. If it didn't seem like you'd finally grasped it, I'd explain it by way of roulette. A roulette wheel is an analog RNG and with a 00 wheel the house edge is 5.26%. Will you get that exact result everytime? Doubtful, but that's not the point. There are essentially 2 "players" at the game, the people wagering and the house. The house is in on every spin, each potential player is not. If you understand the law of large numbers and standard deviation and such you'd understand that the house gets pretty close (as close as random events can be) to the theoretically calculated values.

Full disclosure: I work for a casino and see your brand of "logic" everyday. I see it erroneously applied to table games and I see the shock, surprise and disappointment in the players eyes. My suggestion would be to go back and read the entire thread again (I just did, it only took a few minutes) and make sure you truly understand what you've been told. Then you can explain it to the other engineers that are sitting around laughing about how foolish we are.


* I would point these out but it would be difficult to do without myself violating the "no personal insult" rule. But as someone that's literally grown up with the internet your style screams "Noob!"

This engineer has no problems understanding that a probability density function does not have to be uniform. Not does he have a problem understanding how a uniform probability can be turned into a non-uniform one, but still be random.

Just so you know.

Quote: thecesspit

This engineer has no problems understanding that a probability density function does not have to be uniform. Not does he have a problem understanding how a uniform probability can be turned into a non-uniform one, but still be random.

Just so you know.

I don't necessarily believe that the guy is an engineer either, but, in fairness, I know lots of very good engineers who don't understand this stuff. Although, I'm not sure that I know any who would handle their lack of understanding in this way.

I didn't think he might be outright lying about being an engineer (although I did about the support of his coworkers) until his surprise at a number of slot machines sharing the same tiny glitch expressed in his previous post. That seems divorced from the physical realities of machinery in a way an engineer, of any specialty, just plain couldn't be.

Quote: 24Bingo

I didn't think he might be outright lying about being an engineer (although I did about the support of his coworkers) until his surprise at a number of slot machines sharing the same tiny glitch expressed in his previous post. That seems divorced from the physical realities of machinery in a way an engineer, of any specialty, just plain couldn't be.

Before "engineer" became synonymous with "computer programmer" in many minds, most engineering disciplines were involved with tangible devices which were intentionally designed to be as non-random as possible. All of these are engineers:





Thumbs up if you're an engineer!

I know; that was kind of my point. An engineer might not have the best grasp of randomness, but the confusion he displays in his most recent post about the machines stalling seems strange for anyone who works with any kind of complex machinery.

(Although it's worth pointing out that devices meant to be as non-random as possible typically achieve this by analyzing random variables.)

Quote: MADMANJOE

Then i am at a loss as to what we all witnessed with the machines stalling....and it was SIngapore.
I can say this for fact, I normally will hit the spin or repeat bet on an average of 1 to 2 seconds after the reels stop......unless I am having another sip of a drink, but normally thats what I do. I pressed the repeat bet and nothing happened....I pressed it again and nothing happened.......I was ready to hit the service button because I thought something was wrong and wanted my money out. The reels after around 15 seconds began to spin all by themselves.....If I was the only one, I would think it was some sort of "machine" thing going on. But seeing it happen first to another Engineer (although I wasn't sure of his timing) I was puzzled as to what just happened. When we all got together for a beer after a few hours, ALL the guys said it happened to them as well.
I have never seen such a thing like that before and never in all our years of going to Vegas have I ever witnessed that.
As a matter of fact, all the casinos I have been in I have not seen that including the Cruises we take every year. I put on over a 150,000 air miles a year traveling to these various Countries, and visit the Casinos when in the various Countries.
I guessed that maybe they were downloading something??.....no clue at all. Only an expert I guess of such an occurance or what can cause a machine to do that would know for sure?
Now I will say this if it was any clue, it was not a video machine, it was reels.
The only other wierd thing that happened to me was in Santo Domingo and if you tapped the spin button rather than gently pressing it, the machine would say TILT on it. The MAnager came over and said that machine was touchy. So I just went to another machine.
Was the machine sensative and actually sensing a Tilt condition in Singapore and then reset?........again can only guess.

Lots of things could cause a machine to have glitches. Most likely, either a hardware failure somewhere or a memory leak in the software. There are dozens of pieces of hardware that could fail - the button panel, the display, the CPU, RAM, etc. Computer games often have memory leaks, which is usually a case of some data not being properly cleared out, and can cause a degradation in performance over time.

Consider which is more likely - (a) you stumbled across a couple of machines with hardware issues or minor software bugs or (b) the machines, which already come with a built-in house edge, are programmed to conspire further against you.

Consider which is more likely - (a) you stumbled across a couple of machines with hardware issues or minor software bugs or (b) the machines, which already come with a built-in house edge, are programmed to conspire further against you.

A or B can not be validated until we know Madmanjoe's astrological sign and whether his mother was left-handed.

I suppose an engineer was originally defined as someone who operated an engine.

Quote: odiousgambit

I suppose an engineer was originally defined as someone who operated an engine.

Does that mean a mouseketeer is someone that operates a mouse?

Quote: tringlomane

The numbers set by the RNG are random. The symbols that are represented by these numbers were chosen by the slot manufacturer. The payout table of the slot machine was also chosen by the slot manufacturer.

In slot machines, payouts may be varied by adjusting how often each symbol shows up on each reel. So if you place more higher paying symbols to hit, then the payout longterm may approach 98%. If you put more of the lower paying symbols to hit in the game, you can lower the percentage from 98% to something in the 80s, 70s, whatever.

The physical reels are weighted so certain outcomes are more likely, but the RNG that chooses which reel symbol is chosen is still random. If you are really an engineer, you should be able to understand what a weighted average is without coming off pretentious.

Tringlomane I certainly agree 100% with you ! Excellent answer ! - But I am still uncleared about one question, which I will ask:

All Microgaming online casinos are offering a video slot game named "Loaded". - Why at one casino this game is advertised as having a payback of 95.6% and at another casino is advertised as having a payback of 97.5%, while the payout table is the same at both ?

Quote: PlayHunter

Tringlomane I certainly agree 100% with you ! Excellent answer ! - But I am still uncleared about one question, which I will ask:

All Microgaming online casinos are offering a video slot game named "Loaded". - Why at one casino this game is advertised as having a payback of 95.6% and at another casino is advertised as having a payback of 97.5%, while the payout table is the same at both ?

Because the machine with the 97.5% return has symbol probabilities that are better than the 95.6% version. For example, the 97.5% version may have 1 extra Wild symbol in one of the reels than the 95.6% version. Adding a wild will certainly increase the game's return. Conversely, removing lower paying symbols (which in turn increases the hit probabilities of all other symbols) will also typically increase the game's return. If I'm looking at the correct game, this means removing "turntables" and "music awards" from the reels.

The saying always comes to mind as to know your audience. We just wanted to know a few answers to a few questions and at the time we all checked out some of the threads here and found to be there are a few experts here.
To defend is fruitless to some degree without another shot at me. But to defend I will state this and it is simply put, in my World, failure or a hiccup can cost a life. The rigors of testing becomes paramount with work arounds with numerous backups for the Rick Management teams to analyze and insure all bases are covered, although of course statistics can always haunt ones thoughts as to was enough done to insure safety was built in. This can of course means that the laws of statistical analysys will also lead one into a court of law to defend and lose if any sort of negligence was at play. One could care less if a product, or robot, or laser was robust enough to overcome a set of variables. In a court of law the other side of the aisle so to speak will also bring in their expert witness with degrees out the wazoo and claim not so. If corporate America makes a claim of efficiency or advertising and it doesn't add up, off one goes to court as well. Of course OEE and PM's vs. CM's will prove what can be deemed the obvious, and yet if Loss of Productivity is real to any extent, once again fines and courts can become invloved. Simply stating Infant Mortality was the direct cause of this or that, sure is not going to cut it. If a bakery line adds too much frosting on a cake, even that can and will be challenged as to was there a flaw in the analog sensors or developed program which cost us xxxx dollars to our P&L. To an investor to a casino that owns several thousand shares, to state its the economy stupid, would not be a cure to his finacial position as an investor. AND of course math IS important because it can be in countless examples I can give and as known, both a help and a nightmare. So that said, a hickup in a game is OK with me and I am sure someone can crunch the numbers and say all 7 of us guys hit a glitch in either the program or nature of the machines. Fine with me, was just a question.........although in my world there is NO room for a stall or glitch. Or on the next jet ride, do you whip out your book of statistcs and say it was mathematically possible as you hold the book to the window so I can see it and achnowledge it is feasable? I am sure the jury will say you are right and throw the case out. Or the guy who purposely locked himself in a control cabinet and flipped the ON switch to ON and fried himself to prove it could be done at the expense of forever losing feeling in his left arm........and the jury made him win the Lotto based on it never should have been possible to do.
I labored the point that we all go just to have fun and was curious on a few things. And the banner threw us unless (which we had no idea) the machines could be not set over a lifetime, but rather set loose for those that like small payouts, and alot of them. But over the life of a machine? Then I would think someone someday will question it as misleading. For me to quantify anything means one needs to know if in fact programs can be changed, or ordered like that from the factory of origin. Granted every Casino has their operating costs and some may not need as much to support the overhead. Again just a question. I do not expect a slot machine to be bullet proof so to speak in all realms of its designs like we have to go through, and sometimes Marketing/Sales will pressure to put machines out prematurely and not allow the Engineers to test accordingly......again, found it ironic it could happen as it did happen to all of us and it was Singapore. I have no doubt Casinos have a great IT department and Math gurus and perhaps a staff of Engineers pouring over the scenerios of possible outcomes. Of course some will say read up on it and ask others, but of course if hitting a moving target is the challenge, as Chuck said......Good Luck. I know as well personally and surrounded by fellow Engineers that some are so intelligent it is remarkable, and yet find flaws in watching sports due to human error so why watch a football game. Though this same person does cube roots in his head faster than one can punch a keyboard or operate a calculator 5 digits out. It makes him no less an Engineer to see flaws in sports, that is his thinking. He finds no pleasure in watching us gamble at a slot, but enjoys the small talk. In my case, I do tend to question the validity of a sign vs. what I have just seen, or if a machine does something unexpected, I ask why. In my world, flaws will never be tolerated and by rights this should be so and dismissal would be the outcome. In a lights out factory with robots with vision and little intervention of any sorts, and lasers that are powerful, yet accurate.....there is no room for error. Imagine a robot losing servo feedback and decides to take on a life of its own, I rest my case on the very real outcome. NO I do not expect all machines to be flawless. It was just a question.
I have been told many times that slot odds are worse than playing blackjack or what ever, and perhaps one can crunch that and say either way depending on the slot machine it can or not be true. My wife can produce many reciepts on her percieved notion that the programs change between a single coin vs. multiple coins on the same machine......I live watching it and most times hard to say different. But I did ask and the answer was it is illegal to do...OK.... This is the same woman that bought Apple stock when it was going pretty close to under (Many years ago) and bought shall we say a ton of it, and recently popped out towards the top.
I am I feel smart enough to learn the game Craps, but frankly a slot machine with graphics these days proves to me to be enjoyable......although when I hear the screaming of joy from the crap tables, I wonder what I am missing......my loss as I smile. The Venetian to me is a great place and the hotel is amazing....and then there are others that tell me to play off the strip because those machines are too tight.....my fault I guess for not digging into the facts to get the answers, but all the same.......I at least will continue to play the slots there and enjoy the atmosphere there. I do apologize if I insulted anyone, it was never my true intent.

" although in my world there is NO room for a stall or glitch "

Do Alice and a white rabbit live in your world ?

NO..........BUT I still think there is a Santa