RNG = REALLY???
That said, for Vegas or anyone else saying they can set 98% paybacks or even 0% is impossible over a billion life cycles of a machine. A true RNG is random meaning impossible to have odds or even being able to set odds. SO for amusement purposes, say they can set a machine at 98%....this would mean the RNG is trumped and allow a payout. I do play slots as amusement, but I do get annoyed that the agenda pushed by Casinos and so called experts using the term RNG only tells me the general public is really detached from understanding such a chip. Can a programmer cook the odds? Absolutely if allowed into the program, and the RNG is deemed worthless. Now there will be all kinds of explanations because lets face it, Vegas and for that matter any Casino, makes money on you working the machine. What is more amusing is to say there are rules of paybacks in Vegas......using a RNG......really??? There is a huge difference in something Finite and something Infinite. RNG are Infinite with no way to predict anything over the course of anything in years or percentages. A program can be cooked in the sense that over the course of xxx amount of cycles, it will hit, thus creating a percentage of payouts either by different payouts or even a grand payout. Random Number Generators never can be calculated due to the first word called Random. Also amusing is showing the reels as how many numbers and what the odds are......so much for random number generators. Of course if people really knew this as fact, then perhaps the Casino patrons would diminish knowing that the odds are actually baked into a program and far from Random. Take a roulette table, and there is a finite amount of color, red and black. Even though chance can come into play and odds to some degree can be calculated, a RNG has no finite rules to be applied. How do I know this stuff?? I design using these RNG in programs and there is no way to predict or even set a percentage on it over any lifetime. Servers can be used and can be manipulated to "allow" percentage payouts to appease the Vegas Commission, but really folks think about it......BUT that said, I still enjoy the flashing lights and what I call mindless fun !!
Randomness, from my perspective, is a theoretical concept. It doesn't exist in the real world at all outside of a definition.
There are only approximations of randomness. Even if you had something that was 100% perfectly random, there is no proof to assert that there is no way to predict the random outcome of anything, because it is always plausible that some superior being could predict the future regardless of what you think you know about the universe.
It is for this reason that gambling is so interesting and fun. The human brain likes to believe in the idea that you can tap into being able to tell the future. When you get lucky beyond what randomness can nominally explain, it creates a sort of quandary for the human brain. There's no place to file getting really really lucky beyond a threshold of reason that is different for each individual, and instead the human brain explains it some other way than luck.
That brain then goes on to continue trying to exploit what they feel is responsible for the good fortune, and frequently end up giving back all of their winnings and more.
Being objective can be difficult for people to do. But pseudo-random number generators on computers are generally pretty difficult to predict unless there is an obvious and/or known flaw that can be readily exploited.
Quote: MADMANJOEThere are many articles on the internet that in one sentence say a machine uses a RNG and the next sentence will say the machines have payout odds set at 98% 90% 85%.....I am far from confused from 2 different concepts to be used in a machine.
You're reading articles on the internet that are written by laypeople. They use the wrong terms. OK. That doesn't mean you're not confused or not wrong. The machines absolutely have theoretical payback percentages set to 98% or 95% or whatever, and actual returns as determined by the RNG absolutely do deviate from those theoretical percentages.
Quote: MADMANJOEThere are many articles on the internet that in one sentence say a machine uses a RNG and the next sentence will say the machines have payout odds set at 98% 90% 85%.....I am far from confused from 2 different concepts to be used in a machine.
Agree you have to compartmentalize. The operator doesn't set the payout. They set a setting that implies a payout. They are normally correlated, but sometimes it can take years of operation to get to the payout percentage set by the operator and that doesn't mean anything is wrong.
As for RNGs, of course they mean Pseudo-RNGs, which generate millions of numbers per second so "for all intents and purposes" the number generated when you push the button is random. The closest I have seen to an actual RNG was back in the days of big iron computers, where the software could "read" a number from the line printer.
Quote: MADMANJOEIF a machine has a true theoretical payout percentage as you state, it is no longer a RNG.
Isn't that just a simple two-step process? RNG produces a random number from 1-100, each number maps to a result on the machine. Machine results are weighted to create the desired theoretical payback percentage. 1-60 produces a loss, 61-80 produces a push/small win, 81-95 produce medium wins, 96-100 produce large wins; overall payback is 95% or whatever.
Weighting is different assuming it is part of a program for weiting purposes......what I can not get through my head is how even the manufacturers of slot machines proclaim it is a RNG and yet.......Vegas states 98% payouts at certain banks of machines.......its one way or the other folks is all I am saying.
You need to remove your aluminum foil triangular-shaped hat first !
Random means random and if it does payout every time for the next 1 million years could be the same of never giving a dollar back for a million years.
Well designed to me means there is a work around and Engineers do that best.......but then again it is not strictly random, but rather a supervisory program that can over ride random either in your favor or not.
I guess the point is.....what is the point of putting up signs stating 98% or 95% payouts if in fact a RNG is used....and Vegas does this.
Math is math, but random proves that it is impossible to predict or is it really all that random? I think based on experience with circuits and my age of course that random is not quite what it appears but rather random as to who and not when.
I have played side by side machines and found that operating them at the same time over a period of time that one was more loose than the other.....was I guess randomly nice to me?.....sure.......so one can say that the RNG was being random yet being kind to me on that machine over many months and the other RNG wasn't as nice.
I do believe a Casino can't stay in business if it pays out because the RNG in every machine pays out every time the button is pressed. I also believe a Casino can not stay in business if the RNG never pays out and hundreds of patrons stay away from the machines.
I believe if you do not take your mads, you are mad. I also believe you are mad when you take your meds.
(1) Imagine a game where we flipped a fair coin, heads you win, tails you lose. You risk $1 each time and have a 50% chance of winning, and a 50% chance of losing. This game has an expected value of 100%. There are two possibilities, win or lose, each with a 50% chance of happening. Wins cause you to have $2 and losses cause you to have $0. Computing the EV is easy: (1/2)*2 + (1/2)*0 = 1. EV is usually thought of in percentages, so 1 = 100%. It's easy to fathom that over the long haul, you will win as much as you lose. In the short term, you could win or lose several times in a row, but over the long haul, you win the same amount that you lose.
(2) Now imagine the same game, except if you win, you only win $.80 instead of a dollar. If you lose, you still lose $1. Half the time you will end up with $1.80 and half the time you will end up with nothing. This game has an expected value of 90% - (1/2)*1.80 + (1/2)*0. Again, in the short term, you could win or lose many times in a row. Over the long haul, you lose $.10 for every dollar you bet.
Slot machines work the same way, except there are many more possibilities, and computing the probability of each is not as easy as these coin-flip games. A slot machine is programmed to request a random number when needed - typically from 0 to some max, depending on what that number is going to be used for. So in our game, instead of flipping a coin, we could just as easily request a random number from 0 to 1. Instead of heads you win, tails you lose, now 0 you win, 1 you lose. The probabilities and paybacks of winning and losing are exactly the same, but now an RNG is determining the results instead of a random coin flip. You'd agree that fundamentally though, this is the same game, yes?
The 98% slot machine has a lot of different possibilities, and each has a pay. If you multiply these numbers and add them all up, you get 98%. For every dollar you bet, on average, you give the casino $.02. Just like the coin flipping game, you can potentially win or lose many times in a row, but the casino knows that machine is going to be there for the long haul, and that the law of large numbers will eventually kick in.
Hope this helps.
But yes perhaps an idiot all the same to question how something used in a slot machine is proclaiming to be random, yet as well showing any percentage of payback.
Quote: MADMANJOEHow can a RNG be "well designed" ??
If it is random.
Quote: MADMANJOERandom means random and if it does payout every time for the next 1 million years could be the same of never giving a dollar back for a million years.
I'm not sure what you mean here. If it is random, this should be highly unlikely; if that's not unlikely, it's not random. A shooter in craps could roll 10,000 come-out sevens on end, but look how little sleep casino management are losing over that.
Quote: MADMANJOEWell designed to me means there is a work around and Engineers do that best.......but then again it is not strictly random, but rather a supervisory program that can over ride random either in your favor or not.
Ah. You're one of those. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. As an engineer, you should take a course in stochastic processes, and that'll help you understand.
Quote: MADMANJOEI guess the point is.....what is the point of putting up signs stating 98% or 95% payouts if in fact a RNG is used....and Vegas does this.
Math is math, but random proves that it is impossible to predict or is it really all that random? I think based on experience with circuits and my age of course that random is not quite what it appears but rather random as to who and not when.
It should be impossible to predict where any individual spin will land. However, if it is impossible to predict, it should be unlikely that any example will come up too much more often than any other. Provided that's the case, it should approach these payouts over time. As an engineer, you should know math is math.
Quote: MADMANJOEI have played side by side machines and found that operating them at the same time over a period of time that one was more loose than the other.....was I guess randomly nice to me?.....sure.......so one can say that the RNG was being random yet being kind to me on that machine over many months and the other RNG wasn't as nice.
You're falling victim to the human tendency to exaggerate how evenly spread random events should be. Sometimes the RNG will seem to be on your side, sometimes it will seem not to be, since it's not what you intuitively expect from a random event. If, however, you had the slot machine's inner workings, and kept records, you would probably (although not necessarily) find most of these incidents to be well within the margin of error.
Quote: MADMANJOEI do believe a Casino can't stay in business if it pays out because the RNG in every machine pays out every time the button is pressed. I also believe a Casino can not stay in business if the RNG never pays out and hundreds of patrons stay away from the machines.
Indeed. And both these things are possible... but they're extremely unlikely. And that's enough.
You're not the first person to be confused by the idea of a "payout percentage." Just think of them like the edges in craps.
There is no direct correlation between the RNG and the posted payouts percentage.
The RNG does randomly select where the reels will stop. The results are then compared to the paytable to determine a payout.
Where the posted payout percentage comes in is this way: If each of the 16 million combinations of results were to appear one time, and assuming one unit was bet each time, then the return would match the posted payout percentage.
Does that make sense?
Headed back to hospital. Just wanted to remind you about the old adage of teaching a pig to sing, before I go. Not only does it waste your time, it also annoys the pig !
This is more fact than fiction.
Now to say that would be closer to how a RNG can be used in conjunction to a supervisory chip or program that deciphers the frequency.
In other words if a single bar on a reel is the numbers between and equal to 1 and 4......2 bars between/equal to 5 and 7....3 bars between/equal 8 and 9 and the number 10 is equal to a 7..........the odds are now able to be calculated as to a payout of any kind because now a spread is factored in and random as a single number or numbers is trumped by a spread used or shall we say a weighted frequency.
Quote: MADMANJOEI believe what the RNG is doing is setting a group of numbers within a range and using it as a weight as to how the numbers come up and not as a true RNG. I base this on MANY machines that will produce three 1 bars across many more times than three 3 bars across, let alone three 7's.
This is more fact than fiction.
That is a result of weighting, which we discussed earlier.
Quote: MADMANJOEI believe what the RNG is doing is setting a group of numbers within a range and using it as a weight as to how the numbers come up and not as a true RNG. I base this on MANY machines that will produce three 1 bars across many more times than three 3 bars across, let alone three 7's.
This is more fact than fiction.
Now to say that would be closer to how a RNG can be used in conjunction to a supervisory chip or program that deciphers the frequency.
In other words if a single bar on a reel is the numbers between and equal to 1 and 4......2 bars between/equal to 5 and 7....3 bars between/equal 8 and 9 and the number 10 is equal to a 7..........the odds are now able to be calculated as to a payout of any kind because now a spread is factored in and random as a single number or numbers is trumped by a spread used or shall we say a weighted frequency.
To the extent that I can decipher this, it seem to be more or less how the machines work, but it doesn't make it "not a true RNG." Three random numbers are chosen, and the reels stop in the position each encodes. The payout percentage is the EV of that process.
Quote: MADMANJOESorry BUZZARD, I thought I could join a group on this thinking and discuss it as a topic.
You're not the first person to come on here insisting that randomness was incompatible with a payout percentage, or that the payout percentage could somehow be exploited. I don't blame him for being fed up.
Not trying to knock how the mystical frequency occurs, but rather how they are coming up with percentages. If my theory is correct, and that is how I would design the machine, the only time the RNG is used as a RNG is only if it hits the number needed for a Jackpot and any other time there is a spread involved. Now that I can see as a Casino being able to change as the spread between what triggers small or medium payouts by changing the spreads between what is needed between numbers.
Quote: MADMANJOEI believe what the RNG is doing is setting a group of numbers within a range and using it as a weight as to how the numbers come up and not as a true RNG. I base this on MANY machines that will produce three 1 bars across many more times than three 3 bars across, let alone three 7's.
This is more fact than fiction.
Now to say that would be closer to how a RNG can be used in conjunction to a supervisory chip or program that deciphers the frequency.
In other words if a single bar on a reel is the numbers between and equal to 1 and 4......2 bars between/equal to 5 and 7....3 bars between/equal 8 and 9 and the number 10 is equal to a 7..........the odds are now able to be calculated as to a payout of any kind because now a spread is factored in and random as a single number or numbers is trumped by a spread used or shall we say a weighted frequency.
This is how physical reel slot machines work. The rng algorithm never changes, but the weight of the symbols does.
Quote: MADMANJOEI believe what the RNG is doing is setting a group of numbers within a range and using it as a weight as to how the numbers come up and not as a true RNG. I base this on MANY machines that will produce three 1 bars across many more times than three 3 bars across, let alone three 7's.
This is more fact than fiction.
Now to say that would be closer to how a RNG can be used in conjunction to a supervisory chip or program that deciphers the frequency.
In other words if a single bar on a reel is the numbers between and equal to 1 and 4......2 bars between/equal to 5 and 7....3 bars between/equal 8 and 9 and the number 10 is equal to a 7..........the odds are now able to be calculated as to a payout of any kind because now a spread is factored in and random as a single number or numbers is trumped by a spread used or shall we say a weighted frequency.
Weighted reels are completely standard on slot machines with mechanical reels. But the 98% return sign the casino advertises or whatever still takes this fact into account. The problem with the "Up to 98% payback" sign, then that often just means only one slot in the bank is set to return 98% after millions, millions, and millions of spins.
This academic paper is a great source on how slot machine math works:
http://www.nh.gov/gsc/calendar/documents/20091117_harrigan_dixon.pdf
And fed up is right when folks try to pass off their secrets on winning.......LOL
There is more than meets the eye in any machine and passing it off as pure luck is not always the case.
To debate and drill down to how something works helps choosing as well which machines have a more generous spread of numbers used.
The closest I have seen as a true RNG is the Wheel of Fortune machines........even a Casino will admit that is a tough one to play and win most anything. This taught me that there is some sort of chip or program that can and does set a spread of numbers using the RNG.
A lawsuit alleges that the wheels are made to look like the real thing and, as such, mislead players into thinking a spin is a random act when in fact it isn't. Such misrepresentation violates Michigan consumer protection laws.
Are you available as an " expert" witness ?
Quote: MADMANJOEYeah well it is a discussion board on Vegas and Wizards and whatever isn't it??
And fed up is right when folks try to pass off their secrets on winning.......LOL
There is more than meets the eye in any machine and passing it off as pure luck is not always the case.
To debate and drill down to how something works helps choosing as well which machines have a more generous spread of numbers used.
The closest I have seen as a true RNG is the Wheel of Fortune machines........even a Casino will admit that is a tough one to play and win most anything. This taught me that there is some sort of chip or program that can and does set a spread of numbers using the RNG.
I don't really get what your definition of a true RNG is? patterns that don't look like they repeat? On some machines, you'll occasionally get the exact same reel back to back, or even the same winning combination; considering there is only a limited number of reel choices, this is occasionally supposed to occur.
1) develop a program with the numbers 1 thru 10 and have it run synchronized over and over (gets to 10 then resets back to one) with a fixed clocking frequency of time........see how often you hit then number 1 when you stop the program
2) develop a program with the numbers 1 thru 10 and have it run unsynchronized (any number between 1 thru 10 can be produced with no reset) with a fixed clocking frequency of time......see how often you hit the number 1 when you stop the program
3) develop a program with the numbers 1 thru 10 both ways with a varying random clocking frequency of time.....see how often you hit the number 1 when you stop the program
4) Now create a program with a spread program attached so that 1 thru 4 gives you a 1......5 thru 7 gives you 2........8 and 9 gives you a 3......10 gives you a 10 and see how often you get the number 1
Only programs 1, 2, 3 gives you a RNG that can be varied in complexity......being number 3 the most complex because the clocking cycles are varied on top of being random. Therfore no timing by the operator can be achieved.
Program 4 is not really random due to the spread and any programmer can set that as a program. It also means random is not quite random. It also gives a means at which one can tighten or loosen a machine.
Quote: MADMANJOEThere are many articles on the internet that in one sentence say a machine uses a RNG and the next sentence will say the machines have payout odds set at 98% 90% 85%.....I am far from confused from 2 different concepts to be used in a machine.
98% payout doesn't mean what you think it means. It just means that the house edge is 2%. It doesn't mean that over any set period of time, the machine will actually return 98%. It means that the odds are set up in a way that the expected return of every dollar bet is 98c. It's no different from saying that a double-zero roulette wheel returns 95% (or whatever.. I know it's a little less) when you always bet on black. There is no guarantee that over any set period of time your bets on black will return 95%; just that that is your EV over the long term.
In other words, it really is random. Payouts are never "overdue" if they haven't hit in a while. It is completely possible (though unlikely) to hit jackpots on 10 consecutive spins, just as it's possible to never hit a jackpot in millions of spins.
Quote: MADMANJOEThen this also means that if weighting is used as a spread then the RNG is not solely responsible but rather used in conjunction with chip or program.
Not trying to knock how the mystical frequency occurs, but rather how they are coming up with percentages. If my theory is correct, and that is how I would design the machine, the only time the RNG is used as a RNG is only if it hits the number needed for a Jackpot and any other time there is a spread involved. Now that I can see as a Casino being able to change as the spread between what triggers small or medium payouts by changing the spreads between what is needed between numbers.
Quote: MADMANJOEYeah well it is a discussion board on Vegas and Wizards and whatever isn't it??
And fed up is right when folks try to pass off their secrets on winning.......LOL
There is more than meets the eye in any machine and passing it off as pure luck is not always the case.
To debate and drill down to how something works helps choosing as well which machines have a more generous spread of numbers used.
The closest I have seen as a true RNG is the Wheel of Fortune machines........even a Casino will admit that is a tough one to play and win most anything. This taught me that there is some sort of chip or program that can and does set a spread of numbers using the RNG.
I'm assuming you're a student, rather than a working engineer. Either way, I strongly recommend you take a course in stochastic processes. Casinos aside, the kind of ignorance displayed in these posts is going to hurt you in your career. Sure, millions of spins can put you far from 98%, but what are the chances? Probably less than a mechanical failure. If the machine always returned 98%, no one would play, anyway - going above that amount it the point.
The percentages are done by simple math, starting from the idea that the random number generator (the generator itself, not the reels) is unbiased. It's no different from working out the expected return in craps assuming the dice are fair, or in TCP assuming the deck is freshly shuffled.
Licensed machines in general tend to be tighter, since the license increases demand in the way a better edge normally would. It's true that the reels are biased, but this doesn't mean there are any "secrets on winning."
(And I love the way this forum's APuritans accuse the casino of trying to hide the fact you can't win "normally" and accuse everyone who thinks a place of gambling is a legitimate enterprise of secretly working there, while people who think you can win by woo insist they're saying the opposite and accuse everyone who calls their woo what it is of the same.)
I never cared if there is an edge in winning, I am set pretty good in life, rather trying to understand the real definition of RANDOM to a SLOT MACHINE ya goof.
Ignorance is saying something is random with hanging a sign saying 98% payouts.
IF reels are biased and Licensed machines in gerneral TEND to be tighter as you just stated........then it is NOT random is it???? how the hell can
any RANDOM GENERATOR BE BIASED????????????????........YOU just admitted (I know the English language is a tough one for you) that Licensed machines in general tend to be tighter........THAT is random????
LEARN the definition of random. Apply it.
My career has been stellar. ANYONE using your statement of BIASED is all WET on a RNG
Good luck in your tinkertoy career....maybe it was at Hostess.
Quote: MADMANJOEBeing an Engineer and knowing the true meaning of a RNG. [...] A true RNG is random meaning impossible to have odds or even being able to set odds.
Please remind me to never ever hire you on an engineering job. You confuse several concepts.
First of all, the payout percentage in a "game of luck" does not depend on random results (the "luck"), but on the rules of the game alone. By changing the rules of the game, the operator can adjust the payout percentage. Simple as that.
Second, I doubt you understand what "payout percentage" is. It is the *expectation value* of the game result per unit bet. For random variates and any function of random variates, the expectation value is well defined. Look it up in any college math textbook. A game of luck is a specific function (defined by the rules) of one (or more) random variates.
Now the RNG: It is a device that produces some output, whose possible quantitative distribution is those of a random variate.
So how does a slot machine work ? You have a RNG, which acts as an input to some function (the game rules), and the result of that function determines the players win. In order to change the payout percentage, the operator modifies the game rules. He does not modify the RNG itself.
Whether a RNG exists is a question of physical design. And believe me, using quantum fluctuations as a source of randomness, true RNGs are very possible (and they are build, tested and sold frequently).
Quote: MADMANJOESorry Bingo but perhaps you should actually learn in school and not pretend to know random anything.
Go. Read up. I think this is the book I used; you clearly could benefit.
Quote: MADMANJOEI never cared if there is an edge in winning, I am set pretty good in life, rather trying to understand the real definition of RANDOM to a SLOT MACHINE ya goof.
Ignorance is saying something is random with hanging a sign saying 98% payouts.
Say I went to random.org, and chose a number between 0 and 99. 51 or higher, I'd give you a dollar; 50 or lower, you'd give me a dollar. That would be random, based on a random number generator. The longer we played, however, the more unlikely the net transaction would be to be any given proportional distance from 2 cents per round to me. A slot machine's just a more opaque version of that.
Quote: MADMANJOEIF reels are biased and Licensed machines in gerneral TEND to be tighter as you just stated........then it is NOT random is it???? how the hell can
any RANDOM GENERATOR BE BIASED????????????????........YOU just admitted (I know the English language is a tough one for you) that Licensed machines in general tend to be tighter........THAT is random????
(I'm just going to marvel at the bolded statement a bit.)
It is not the generator that is biased. The machine and its payouts are based on the assumption that it's not biased. Whether it's "tight" or "loose" depends on the paytable and the weighting of the reels, that's all. Just like in my example above, if I instead shifted it to 51 or lower, 52 or higher, it would be four cents per round; if I made 50 a push, it would be one cent a round. The underlying randomness, though, wouldn't have changed.
Quote: MADMANJOELEARN the definition of random. Apply it.
You first.
Quote: MADMANJOESorry Bingo but perhaps you should actually learn in school and not pretend to know random anything.
I never cared if there is an edge in winning, I am set pretty good in life, rather trying to understand the real definition of RANDOM to a SLOT MACHINE ya goof.
Ignorance is saying something is random with hanging a sign saying 98% payouts.
IF reels are biased and Licensed machines in gerneral TEND to be tighter as you just stated........then it is NOT random is it???? how the hell can
any RANDOM GENERATOR BE BIASED????????????????........YOU just admitted (I know the English language is a tough one for you) that Licensed machines in general tend to be tighter........THAT is random????
LEARN the definition of random. Apply it.
My career has been stellar. ANYONE using your statement of BIASED is all WET on a RNG
Good luck in your tinkertoy career....maybe it was at Hostess.
The numbers set by the RNG are random. The symbols that are represented by these numbers were chosen by the slot manufacturer. The payout table of the slot machine was also chosen by the slot manufacturer.
In slot machines, payouts may be varied by adjusting how often each symbol shows up on each reel. So if you place more higher paying symbols to hit, then the payout longterm may approach 98%. If you put more of the lower paying symbols to hit in the game, you can lower the percentage from 98% to something in the 80s, 70s, whatever.
The physical reels are weighted so certain outcomes are more likely, but the RNG that chooses which reel symbol is chosen is still random. If you are really an engineer, you should be able to understand what a weighted average is without coming off pretentious.
1) Bet a dollar and roll a fair six-sided standard die (faces numbered 1 through 6). If a 1 rolls, you win $3.50 for 1. If a 2 rolls, you win $2.25 for 1. If 3-6 roll, you lose. This game has a RTP of 95.83%, or a house edge of 4.17%. The outcomes 1 through 6 are uniformly-distributed. This is how old-school slot machines used to work prior to electronic control.
2) Bet a dollar and roll a fair six-sided die. This time, the faces are non-standard and are 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5. If a 1 rolls (p=1/6), you win $3.50 for 1. If a 2 rolls (p=2/6), you win $1 for 1. If 3-5 roll, you lose. This game has an RTP of 91.67%. While the individual faces on the die are still uniformly distributed (each has a 1/6 chance), the outcomes 1 through 5 are *not* uniformly-distributed because the 2 is twice as likely as the others. But the die-rolling process is still a random one.
#2 is essentially how all slot machines work. There is a uniform random variable produced by an RNG which is mapped to a non-uniform distribution of outcomes using weighted reels. The weighting of those reels, and the accompanying payouts for certain combinations (but not others) determines the RTP of the game.
Now it makes sense there is a non-uniform distribution due to weighted reels.
To some of the others, please I hope you try to get employed where I am so I can have the pleasure to fire you.....won't take but a day.....there are other Engineers with me reading this right now and they are getting a kick out of the comments aimed at me.....LOL
The question came up because we take trips to Vegas and are comped and have a great time there, but the questions did begin with random vs. shall we say not so random.......then the one csaino that says 98% payouts.....thus the calculators came out and programs developed for the hell of it to see how that could be based on random and RNG's.
Again, not trying to win a boat load of money or cheat anyone, just trying to figure out relations of random and weightings.
Quote: DocI predict that the forum's newest member has a short residency.
It also depresses me that he has a job in engineering. If he actually read some of our posts more carefully (or read the link I gave him), maybe "MathExtremist" (a slot machine designer, iirc) wouldn't had to dumb it down that much.
Quote: MADMANJOEActually BUZZARD I have been nice so keep it nice.
You should also learn what the word "nice" means. Immediately dismissing people's responses that are more knowledgeable than yours is typically not considered "being nice". If you would have considered our responses more carefully, we wouldn't have needed to get to page 5.
Quote: MADMANJOEYes we sure did stare at the facts of statistics on that winded explanation, but random and a percentage sign will never equate. I am glad you are depressed I am an Engineer, of course if you ever saw the designs, we would be depressed on how you could not understand what was created.
Considering I have a PhD in Chemical Engineering, I understand a lot more than you think I do. And since I have calculated slot machine payouts before, I definitely understand the concepts discussed in this thread. I'm sure I would need to be guided a bit in terms of learning circuitry and other EE specifics for the creation of an RNG device, but no way it would be "beyond me". This isn't your average internet forum full of retards, but you definitely assumed it was.
